Military Personnel Should Be Tolerated, not Celebrated!

This covers it pretty well...what if they gave a war and no one came....

THE UNIVERSAL SOLDIER

PKR bum has it right. The word should be "equal", not celebrated. All the men in my family and extended family served, most as professional careers. For them and the rest of our families, we knew that costs and the benefits.

I am often stunned how many times we have had military discounts or advantages proffered to us and I have wondered why that was the case when not so for the civilian population. In some cases it is because military members tend to be a better credit risk (I, for one, have had to go to commanders to get payment for overdue debts - and I was paid every time) or it is a measure of appreciation. But why then when for most of us this is is a career choice?

When I was a kid growing up in the counterculture of the '60s and '70s we kids hid the fact my dad was in the Navy serving tours in Viet Nam. We were targeted by bullies wherever we went. Today the pendulum has swung and I find it equally strange to be proffered a 10% discount for buying my niece a trendy sweater.

We have endured long separations, death and missing family members. We have also been paid well, received the best medical coverage in the country in active duty and retirement, benefitted from great educational plans, seen the world, received cost of living allowances and tax/buying advantages. All have used their training, experience and education to launch successful careers in the private sector with a few in civil service. With each of us there are those with PTSD or other disabilities who are homeless or with lives otherwise in disarray, and we cannot forget them.

On a couple of side notes, instead of discounts from the private sector, I would rather see pressure to implement policies that would not require service members to serve for what amounts to virtual years on end while their families grow up or manage without them. That policy is destroying families and good men.

And because it is a chosen profession, when the nasty cuts start rolling in to save this country, it is only fair that we take our pay and benefit cuts in balance with the civilian sector. Right now our biggest enemy is our own failing economy and infrastructure. Time to fight that battle instead.

The reality is that serving in the military is indeed a choice and the benefits and costs for most pretty much balance each other out. While it's laudable to pat a veteran on the back and offer support when they have needs after serving, blanket hatred or worship is ignorant and dangerous.

A military is a necessary evil that threatens our democracy to either scorn or laud it.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/peirce/peirce43.html


Then along came Franklin Roosevelt and socialism. "Projecting power" became important to the political masters and the Navy was heavily built up as well as a long-range strategic air force that would shortly bring fire and death to many. World War Two and the draft put literally millions of Americans in uniform and they were taught to obey the national leadership without qualm. Whatever moral high ground America ever laid claim to burned up in Dresden and Nagasaki.

Soleil wrote:

We have endured long separations, death and missing family members. We have also been paid well, received the best medical coverage in the country in active duty and retirement, benefitted from great educational plans, seen the world, received cost of living allowances and tax/buying advantages. All have used their training, experience and education to launch successful careers in the private sector with a few in civil service. With each of us there are those with PTSD or other disabilities who are homeless or with lives otherwise in disarray...

But of course that applies ONLY to the ones who DID come back. NOT to the ones whose lives ENDED before they had the chance to come back and experience any of that. Or to experience anything else.

Bob wrote:

Wordslinger wrote:Adjust your logic, it needs revision. The purpose of all soldiers is to kill. There's nothing "corrupt" about a soldier killing. Soldiers take lives and in our armed forces, they do it for money. Reality.

Money is one of the reasons but there are plenty more. Patriotism, manliness (including the women because I could tell you stories about some of those who Teo and I know about), glory, wanting to accomplish something important in their lives, physicality, wanting to "see the world", and the list goes on.

Look, let's get real and stop kidding ourselves. There's always gonna be nations, nations are always going to go to war with each other, and last but not least, it's just plain old human nature that there are ALWAYS going to be a gracious plenty people to do the nations' fighting for them. It's just denial of reality to believe all that will ever end.

You're right, of course. But I'll be damned if I'll become a military cheerleader. War sucks. Soldiers are a necessary evil. I'll tolerate them but I won't applaud.

Nekochan wrote:

Dreamsglore wrote:

Nekochan wrote:Also, when you work for a company that applies for a security clearance for you, they can ask pretty much anything when they do the clearance. They will even go to your neighbors and ask them personal questions about you. They will do a full background check.

http://www.clearancejobs.com/security_clearance_faq.pdf

Those are jobs w/ high clearances not the everyday jobs. My sister has one of those and they do an extensive background but it is not the norm. You were saying in general they can ask for the DD214 but now you're bringing in national security jobs. Different criteria for a reason.

Remember, we were actually talking about an AWOL discharge, which is a Federal CRIME! You said that the military will put them out of the service and they won't go to prison, case closed. But at the very least, they will have a dishonorable discharge. A dishonorable discharge for AWOL is not the same as a military medical discharge. It's a federal crime to be AWOL. If the employer asks the prospective employee if they agree to having a background check and the employee says "no"--well then good luck being considered for that job. If a background check is done and the dishonorable discharge for being AWOL is found....that is like being convicted of a federal crime. And good luck getting that job. A dishonorable discharge is a very serious matter and it does follow a person, for life.

That's not true,Neko. My ex-husband went awol when on leave fron Vietman. He did not go to jail and went on to have a career in state govt. w/ no problems. I've known a lot of people who went awol and were never charged w/ a felony.

Dreamsglore wrote:
That's not true,Neko. My ex-husband went awol when on leave fron Vietman. He did not go to jail and went on to have a career in state govt. w/ no problems. I've known a lot of people who went awol and were never charged w/ a felony.

I agree Dreams. AWOL is covered by Article 86 of the UCMJ and says;

Maximum punishment.

(1) Failing to go to, or going from, the appointed place of duty. Confinement for 1 month and forfeiture of two-thirds pay per month for 1 month.

(2) Absence from unit, organization, or other place of duty.

(a) For not more than 3 days. Confinement for 1 month and forfeiture of two-thirds pay per month for 1 month.

(b) For more than 3 days but not more than 30 days. Confinement for 6 months and forfeiture of two-thirds pay per month for 6months.

(c) For more than 30 days. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 1 year.

(d) For more than 30 days and terminated by apprehension. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 18 months.

(3) From guard or watch. Confinement f o r 3 months and forfeiture of two-thirds pay per month for 3 months.

(4) From guard or watch with intent to abandon. Bad-conduct discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 6 months.

(5) With intent to avoid maneuvers or field exercises. Bad-conduct discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 6 months.

The more serious of the offenses is desertion which is covered under Article 85 of the UCMJ. I used to hear it said that it is desertion after one is AWOL for 30 days or more, however that is not completely true. It comes down to what was the intent.

Maximum punishment.

(1) Completed or attempted desertion with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 5 years.

(2) Other cases of completed or attempted desertion.

(a) Terminated by apprehension. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 3 years.

(b) Terminated otherwise. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 2 years.

(3) In time of war. Death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.

Dreamsglore wrote:

Nekochan wrote:

Dreamsglore wrote:

Nekochan wrote:Also, when you work for a company that applies for a security clearance for you, they can ask pretty much anything when they do the clearance. They will even go to your neighbors and ask them personal questions about you. They will do a full background check.

http://www.clearancejobs.com/security_clearance_faq.pdf

Those are jobs w/ high clearances not the everyday jobs. My sister has one of those and they do an extensive background but it is not the norm. You were saying in general they can ask for the DD214 but now you're bringing in national security jobs. Different criteria for a reason.

Remember, we were actually talking about an AWOL discharge, which is a Federal CRIME! You said that the military will put them out of the service and they won't go to prison, case closed. But at the very least, they will have a dishonorable discharge. A dishonorable discharge for AWOL is not the same as a military medical discharge. It's a federal crime to be AWOL. If the employer asks the prospective employee if they agree to having a background check and the employee says "no"--well then good luck being considered for that job. If a background check is done and the dishonorable discharge for being AWOL is found....that is like being convicted of a federal crime. And good luck getting that job. A dishonorable discharge is a very serious matter and it does follow a person, for life.

That's not true,Neko. My ex-husband went awol when on leave fron Vietman. He did not go to jail and went on to have a career in state govt. w/ no problems. I've known a lot of people who went awol and were never charged w/ a felony.

How long was he AWOL? If someone goes AWOL for a couple of days, they probably wouldn't be dishonorably discharged. But what I was talking about at the beginning of this discussion--someone deciding that they just did not want to continue being in the military and then deserting -- they would be court-martialed. I posted one example earlier in this thread of a young soldier sentenced to 10 months in prison for being AWOL.

Ghost_Rider1 wrote:

Dreamsglore wrote:
That's not true,Neko. My ex-husband went awol when on leave fron Vietman. He did not go to jail and went on to have a career in state govt. w/ no problems. I've known a lot of people who went awol and were never charged w/ a felony.

I agree Dreams. AWOL is covered by Article 86 of the UCMJ and says;

Maximum punishment.

(1) Failing to go to, or going from, the appointed place of duty. Confinement for 1 month and forfeiture of two-thirds pay per month for 1 month.

(2) Absence from unit, organization, or other place of duty.

(a) For not more than 3 days. Confinement for 1 month and forfeiture of two-thirds pay per month for 1 month.

(b) For more than 3 days but not more than 30 days. Confinement for 6 months and forfeiture of two-thirds pay per month for 6months.

(c) For more than 30 days. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 1 year.

(d) For more than 30 days and terminated by apprehension. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 18 months.

(3) From guard or watch. Confinement f o r 3 months and forfeiture of two-thirds pay per month for 3 months.

(4) From guard or watch with intent to abandon. Bad-conduct discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 6 months.

(5) With intent to avoid maneuvers or field exercises. Bad-conduct discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 6 months.

The more serious of the offenses is desertion which is covered under Article 85 of the UCMJ. I used to hear it said that it is desertion after one is AWOL for 30 days or more, however that is not completely true. It comes down to what was the intent.

Maximum punishment.

(1) Completed or attempted desertion with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 5 years.

(2) Other cases of completed or attempted desertion.

(a) Terminated by apprehension. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 3 years.

(b) Terminated otherwise. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 2 years.

(3) In time of war. Death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.

AWOL for an extended period of time is what I was talking about earlier on this thread when I said that a military person cannot just quit the military if they decide they don't want to be deployed.

I wasn't talking about a soldier missing guard duty or being gone a couple of days. I was talking about someone who is ordered to Afghanistan or someplace and just does not go. Here is what I said:

Most military people don't want to go to war. But regardless of why they join, the agreement is that they will go wherever the military sends them. If they don't go where the military sends them, they will be tried for AWOL and sent to prison. And that is a commitment and sacrifice that policemen and firemen and other civilians do not make.

Nekochan wrote:
AWOL for an extended period of time is what I was talking about earlier on this thread when I said that a military person cannot just quit the military if they decide they don't want to be deployed.

I wasn't talking about a soldier missing guard duty or being gone a couple of days. I was talking about someone who is ordered to Afghanistan or someplace and just does not go. Here is what I said:

Most military people don't want to go to war. But regardless of why they join, the agreement is that they will go wherever the military sends them. If they don't go where the military sends them, they will be tried for AWOL and sent to prison. And that is a commitment and sacrifice that policemen and firemen and other civilians do not make.

The point that I was trying to make is that it makes no difference how long a person is AWOL. It has more to do with the person's intent on whether or not he/she plans to return.

You notice that the max punishment for AWOL is 18 months confinement, while the max for desertion is 2 years and in cases of desertion in time of war the deserter can be put to death.

My brother also was AWOL while he served in Vietnam. He to to Hawaii on R&R and decided to stay a few days past his return date. When he finally got back all he was given was a verbal reprimand.

Ghost_Rider1 wrote:

Nekochan wrote:
AWOL for an extended period of time is what I was talking about earlier on this thread when I said that a military person cannot just quit the military if they decide they don't want to be deployed.

I wasn't talking about a soldier missing guard duty or being gone a couple of days. I was talking about someone who is ordered to Afghanistan or someplace and just does not go. Here is what I said:

Most military people don't want to go to war. But regardless of why they join, the agreement is that they will go wherever the military sends them. If they don't go where the military sends them, they will be tried for AWOL and sent to prison. And that is a commitment and sacrifice that policemen and firemen and other civilians do not make.

The point that I was trying to make is that it makes no difference how long a person is AWOL. It has more to do with the person's intent on whether or not he/she plans to return.

You notice that the max punishment for AWOL is 18 months confinement, while the max for desertion is 2 years and in cases of desertion in time of war the deserter can be put to death.

My brother also was AWOL while he served in Vietnam. He to to Hawaii on R&R and decided to stay a few days past his return date. When he finally got back all he was given was a verbal reprimand.

I think it does make a difference how long you are AWOL. And if your intent is to quit the military and you fail to show when the military deploys you --you will have a federal warrant out on you and if caught, you'll be court martialed. That is my point and has been my point all along. Firefighters and police can walk away from their job at any time--they can just quit--and not face prison time. But military people cannot just quit their job if they are going to be sent to war and they decide that they don't want to go.

Nekochan wrote:
I think it does make a difference how long you are AWOL.

According to the legal description under the UCMJ it does make a difference.

The key difference between AWOL (Art 86, UCMJ) and Desertion (Art 85, UCMJ) rests on the evidence establishing the element of intent. If the prosecutor can prove that the accused intended to permanently stay away, the maximum punishment of the accused increases dramatically. The maximum punishment for desertion terminated by apprehension is dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 3 years. On the other hand, the maximum punishment for AWOL of over 30 days terminated by apprehension is dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 18 months. As such, it is critical to select experienced military defense counsels who will uncover all the facts negating the intent and limiting the maximum punishment of the accused.

http://www.courtmartialdefenseattorney.com/Military-Criminal-Defense-Blog/2011/December/AWOL-v-Desertion-The-Key-is-Evidence.aspx

And just like in civilian courts the burden of guilt lies directly upon the shoulders the prosecutor.

Ghost_Rider1 wrote:

Dreamsglore wrote:

It is illegal now days unless they are asking for Vet's preference.

http://internsover40.blogspot.com/2010/06/13-illegal-interview-questionsdo-you.html

Maybe it is illegal, I don't know, but there are still millions of employment applications out there that still have the question on it.

Still, what about asking for the prospects "Education and Training"? As I said earlier what military person is not going to enter their military training and education?

Dreams, you keep bringing up the ADA in your posts. I thought we were talking about able-bodied ex-military individuals applying for jobs. I have reviewed several application forms from various companies and they all have this in common listed on the very last page. This application was revised by the company as of March 2012.

Education, Training and Experience:

High School:
School name: ________________________
School address:________________________
School city, state, zip:________________________________

Number of years completed: _______________
Did you graduate? [ ] Y or [ ] N
Degree / diploma earned: _______________

College / University:
School name: __________________________
School address:________________________
School city, state, zip:________________________________

Number of years completed: ________
Did you graduate? [ ] Y or [ ] N
Degree / diploma earned: __________________

Vocational School:
Name: ________________________
Address:______________________
City, state, zip:________________________________

Number of years completed: ________
Did you graduate? [ ] Y or [ ] N
Degree / diploma? : __________________

Military:
Branch: ________________________
Rank in Military:________________________
Total Years of Service: ________
Skills/duties: ________
Related details:________________________________

None of the job applications I've seen in recent years ask that info. As I said unless you are using your military experience for qualifications,it is not asked.

Examples of improper questions based on military or veteran status:

Do you plan to take leave to serve in the military or armed forces?
Queries on type or condition of military discharge.
Questions on applicant’s experience in other than US armed forces. Request for discharge papers
http://www.lexuniverse.com/employment-laws/us/Military-Status-Based-Illegal-Interview-Questions-in-US.html

Nekochan wrote:

Dreamsglore wrote:

Nekochan wrote:

Dreamsglore wrote:

Nekochan wrote:Also, when you work for a company that applies for a security clearance for you, they can ask pretty much anything when they do the clearance. They will even go to your neighbors and ask them personal questions about you. They will do a full background check.

http://www.clearancejobs.com/security_clearance_faq.pdf

Those are jobs w/ high clearances not the everyday jobs. My sister has one of those and they do an extensive background but it is not the norm. You were saying in general they can ask for the DD214 but now you're bringing in national security jobs. Different criteria for a reason.

Remember, we were actually talking about an AWOL discharge, which is a Federal CRIME! You said that the military will put them out of the service and they won't go to prison, case closed. But at the very least, they will have a dishonorable discharge. A dishonorable discharge for AWOL is not the same as a military medical discharge. It's a federal crime to be AWOL. If the employer asks the prospective employee if they agree to having a background check and the employee says "no"--well then good luck being considered for that job. If a background check is done and the dishonorable discharge for being AWOL is found....that is like being convicted of a federal crime. And good luck getting that job. A dishonorable discharge is a very serious matter and it does follow a person, for life.

That's not true,Neko. My ex-husband went awol when on leave fron Vietman. He did not go to jail and went on to have a career in state govt. w/ no problems. I've known a lot of people who went awol and were never charged w/ a felony.

How long was he AWOL? If someone goes AWOL for a couple of days, they probably wouldn't be dishonorably discharged. But what I was talking about at the beginning of this discussion--someone deciding that they just did not want to continue being in the military and then deserting -- they would be court-martialed. I posted one example earlier in this thread of a young soldier sentenced to 10 months in prison for being AWOL.

You said it followed you for the rest of your life and it really doesn't.

If a criminal conviction doesn't follow you for life then I guess you're right.

Dreamsglore wrote:

None of the job applications I've seen in recent years ask that info. As I said unless you are using your military experience for qualifications,it is not asked.

Examples of improper questions based on military or veteran status:

Do you plan to take leave to serve in the military or armed forces?
Queries on type or condition of military discharge.
Questions on applicant’s experience in other than US armed forces. Request for discharge papers
http://www.lexuniverse.com/employment-laws/us/Military-Status-Based-Illegal-Interview-Questions-in-US.html

All I can say Dreams is that application that I presented is from a major company and was last revised in March 2012.

The illegal questions that you posed according to the article that accompanied it was questions that are illegal to ask during a job interview, not on a job application.

Dreamsglore wrote:

You said it followed you for the rest of your life and it really doesn't.

You are aware that the majority of AWOLs are listed as misdemeanors while desertions are a felony.

If it's illegal to ask on an interview,Ghost-it's illegal to ask on an application.The companies who have that on there are clueless and haven't revised their applications.Probably won't until it's challenged.

Nekochan wrote:If a criminal conviction doesn't follow you for life then I guess you're right.

Are military crimes listed on LE crime reports? I don't think so.

Ghost_Rider1 wrote:

You are aware that the majority of AWOLs are listed as misdemeanors while desertions are a felony.

Just curious about something. What different circumstances determine when it goes from "AWOL" to "deserted"?

Dreamsglore wrote:

Nekochan wrote:If a criminal conviction doesn't follow you for life then I guess you're right.

Are military crimes listed on LE crime reports? I don't think so.

Yes they are Dreams. It depends on the level of the Courts-Martial, whether it is Summary, Special or General. A conviction by a General Court Martial is considered a federal conviction and remains on the person’s criminal record for life.

http://www.militarylawyers.org/court-martial-levels-difference.php

Bob wrote:

Ghost_Rider1 wrote:

You are aware that the majority of AWOLs are listed as misdemeanors while desertions are a felony.

Just curious about something. What different circumstances determine when it goes from "AWOL" to "deserted"?

I think over 30 days is desertion. They issue a federal warrant on you and if for any reason there is a check ran on your name by the police, you'll be arrested and turned back over to the military. With a record like this it's not going to be easy to get any job that requires a background check. And think about how many jobs today require background checks.

Dreamsglore wrote:If it's illegal to ask on an interview,Ghost-it's illegal to ask on an application.The companies who have that on there are clueless and haven't revised their applications.Probably won't until it's challenged.

I'm sorry Dreams, but I do not believe that, you are going to have to prove it in writing to me via the wording in the ADA itself or some Department of Labor regulation, not some little rag-tag website.

Ghost_Rider1 wrote:

Dreamsglore wrote:

Nekochan wrote:If a criminal conviction doesn't follow you for life then I guess you're right.

Are military crimes listed on LE crime reports? I don't think so.

Yes they are Dreams. It depends on the level of the Courts-Martial, whether it is Summary, Special or General. A conviction by a General Court Martial is considered a federal conviction and remains on the person’s criminal record for life.

http://www.militarylawyers.org/court-martial-levels-difference.php

Right. It's a federal criminal conviction and the laws about things like gun ownership and voting rights apply.

Bob wrote:

Ghost_Rider1 wrote:

You are aware that the majority of AWOLs are listed as misdemeanors while desertions are a felony.

Just curious about something. What different circumstances determine when it goes from "AWOL" to "deserted"?

According to the UCMJ, it is a matter of intent. The prosecution must prove that the individual had no intention of returning to complete the terms of his contract. I read about an Army guy that was AWOL for 3 1/2 months and was tired of looking over his shoulder all time, so he went to a local military installation and turned himself in. Since he turned himself in, the prosecutor was not able to prove intent therefore he could only be charged with being AWOL instead of desertion

Nekochan wrote:

Bob wrote:

Ghost_Rider1 wrote:

You are aware that the majority of AWOLs are listed as misdemeanors while desertions are a felony.

Just curious about something. What different circumstances determine when it goes from "AWOL" to "deserted"?

I think over 30 days is desertion. They issue a federal warrant on you and if for any reason there is a check ran on your name by the police, you'll be arrested and turned back over to the military. With a record like this it's not going to be easy to get any job that requires a background check. And think about how many jobs today require background checks.

According to the UCMJ, it is not a matter of how long a person is gone, it is more a matter of intent. The example I gave Bob the guy was gone for 3 1/2 months and was charged with AWOL and not desertion.

Now the 30 day rule does apply when the command can request a replacement for the AWOL/Deserter then again a person can be classified as a deserter after only 3 days depending on intent. The 30 day rule is mostly for administrative purposes.