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No Country for Old Moderates

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zsomething
Sal
bigdog
Floridatexan
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1No Country for Old Moderates Empty No Country for Old Moderates 8/2/2019, 4:17 pm

Floridatexan

Floridatexan


By Jessica Valenti, Medium

01 August 19


There’s no such thing as ‘the middle’ anymore — only those who can tolerate injustice and those who can’t

Twenty candidates, three moderators, two nights of debate, and a partridge in a pear tree. It’s hard not to feel overwhelmed by the state of politics, and the second presidential debate, hosted by CNN, didn’t do much to alleviate that stress.

From the network’s embarrassing lead-in, a spectacle better suited for a WWE match than a political debate, to the fact that one of the candidates believes you can positive-think away cancer, it was hard not to see the last two nights as a direct response to Donald Trump’s presidency. So much felt crass and surreal.

More so than any bizarre theatrics, it was candidates’ insistence on appealing to “the middle” that revealed Trump’s lingering shadow over the Democratic primary. Again and again over the course of two nights, the CNN moderators and candidates alike insinuated that fighting for real change — like “Medicare for All” — would alienate moderates who don’t like Trump. This, despite the fact that the vast majority of the country supports these policies.

Politicians and pundits need to get over the idea that the middle will save us. White supremacist terrorism is going largely unchecked, states are trying to make abortion punishable by prison time, and we are running large-scale baby jails and concentration camps on the border. There’s no such thing as moderates anymore — only those who can tolerate these injustices, and those who can’t.

Besides, it’s Trump’s extremism that the American people don’t like. The majority of people polled by Quinnipiac University this week think Trump is a racist; another poll showed that most Americans felt his disparaging tweets about members of the “squad” of four Democratic congresswomen of color were overtly racist.

Why are we letting the Republicans who would support such a person set the terms of the debate?

Mayor Pete Buttigieg noted as much on the first night of the debate, when he chided his fellow Democrats for worrying constantly about how they would be perceived by members of the rival party.

“If we embrace a far-left agenda, they’re going to say we’re a bunch of crazy socialists,” Buttigieg said. “If we embrace a conservative agenda, you know what they’re going to do? They’re going to say we’re a bunch of crazy socialists. So let’s just stand up for the right policy, go out there, and defend it.”

Indeed, that’s all Democrats can — and should — do. The truth is that there’s no clear line to beating Trump. There’s no magic formula and no sure thing — a terrifying prospect for all of us, and particularly troubling for those who consider themselves experts in voting trends and politics. But if 2016 showed us anything, it’s that political expertise and polls cannot always be trusted.

Democrats need to let the fact that we can’t predict what’s going to happen in 2020 free us to fight for what the country actually needs, instead of what we think a certain group of voters in a swing state will like.

There was one moment in particular that captured the dangers of this tepid approach to campaigning. Sen. Elizabeth Warren, responding to John Delaney’s insistence that her policies were “impossible promises,” quipped, “I don’t understand why anybody goes to all the trouble of running for president of the United States just to talk about what we really can’t do and shouldn’t fight for.”

And that’s the rub: Why spend one more minute compromising a vision for a just America?

“The middle” is a fairytale for Democrats who want to believe it can save us from Trump, and a lie conservatives need to stop us from fighting for what’s best for Americans. But we don’t have time for fantasies, and the stakes are too high to let Republicans tell us what to talk about and what to fight for.

At the end of the day, I’d like to think that the Democratic sweep in 2018, where we elected a record number of women of color, is more indicative of where the country is at than anything else. But, like everyone else, I really don’t know.

What I do know is that we need to leave behind the theatrics, the fear, and the idea that moderation will do anything other than hold us back.

https://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/57951-no-country-for-old-moderates



bigdog



After that first patronizing sentence I didn't even bother to read the rest of your post.

I have no interest in being told I don't care about injustice or the environment or any of the other major maladies that face this country today.
I am as concerned about them as you are-how totally arrogant and completely ignorant of you to say I am not.
And I'm sure I'm that centrist you are addressing, since there are only a couple of us on this forum.
You apparently feel the world has to be a place of constant warfare, good vs evil, with no room for compromise or logical thinking in-between.
That labels you a fanatic in my book.
"United we stand" does not just apply to this country, it also applies to the Democratic party. The Democratic party was dead until Clinton came along with some Centrist ideas and when he did, reasonable people began to join in. People like you were the ones criticizing President Obama last night, saying his healthcare didn't go far enough, and he deported too many immigrants. Do you honestly think the Democratic party is going to gain one single African American vote by criticizing Obama? Sorry lady, but those are the thoughts of a fool.

If you love Donald Trump so much, go ahead and push your agenda and tear the Democratic party apart. Insult over half of the voters in the country by calling them names. Tell them only YOU know what's right because you have pure thoughts and will never, ever compromise a one of them. Then enjoy the loss of this country that has only lasted as long as it has because of compromise between the two sides of nearly every argument.
The way to get rid of those who won't compromise is to kick them out of office. Not to become one of them.

Sal

Sal

Floridatexan wrote:

Politicians and pundits need to get over the idea that the middle will save us. White supremacist terrorism is going largely unchecked, states are trying to make abortion punishable by prison time, and we are running large-scale baby jails and concentration camps on the border. There’s no such thing as moderates anymore — only those who can tolerate these injustices, and those who can’t.



Tru dat.

zsomething



I think there's still a middle. I'm more centrist than I am hardcore "liberal," really. I find a lot of far-lefties incredibly annoying... but I hate hardcore conservatives. I'm not a Democrat because I love Democrats... I'm a Democrat because Republicans are completely unviable. They're proven failures, and it's hard to find one anymore who's not an utter idiot who believes all kinds of crazy things.

The far-left does turn a lot of people off. Not that Democrats are nearly as "socialist" as the Republicans like to pretend, but socialists are the least-electable group, along with (to my personal chagrin) atheists. https://news.gallup.com/poll/183713/socialist-presidential-candidates-least-appealing.aspx I don't think we tack to the center trying to woo Republican voters -- Republican voters are so brainwashed on FOX bullshit that they'll never vote for anything but a Republican, no matter what. It's all team-sports to them at this point, and they vote mostly out of hate for people who'll call them racist if they use the N-word. They're childish, petulant, and spiteful, and no policy-making is going to lure them to the Dem side. BUT, you can get people who don't like the Republicans (which is most people in this country) but who are still scared of the "socialism" boogeyman. So, no, I don't think the center is dead, at all. I think the viability of the far-left is, if anything, overrated. Most people want reasonable things, to let gay people live their lives, to let minorities live without fear or getting killed... and, the only refuge for the reasonable now is the Democratic party. There's no place left in the GOP for anything but howling nutcases now.

Ironically, though, due to their embrace of a complete fascistic bastard like Trump, the far-right is pushing everyone else further left. So somebody who most of the center wouldn't ordinarily like, such as a Bernie, starts seeming like a viable option. I fucking hate Bernie, I think he'd be an awful, disappointing president... but if I have to choose between him and Trump? I don't even have to hesitate. The far-right doesn't wanna force me to make that choice, because they're still gonna lose, and they're gonna get in somebody they'll really hate.

If the far right really fears having a "socialist" as president, such as an Elizabeth Warren (who's not actually a socialist at all, but by their crazy "I don't really know what socialism is but I know I'm supposed to not like it" standards qualifies as one), then they need to call Trump out and quit cheering when he spews racist stuff about people like Ilhan Omar. Omar's not a big favorite figure on the left... but if you attack her right to live here, even, much less be elected to serve, you'll get people defending her by default. The right are setting themselves up for something they aren't going to like, just by making the alternative even crazier and worse. A lot of people who'd balk at a "socialist" would sure as hell rather pick that than a frickin' Nazi... and that's the choice the right's forcing them to make, by continuing to prop up Trump and never hold him accountable.

bigdog



I think that's exactly what the far right is up to. They are becoming so outwardly racist that they hope to push Democrats so far left that we will nominate a socialist. And, as you say, a socialist is very close to the bottom of the scale of who Americans will vote for. 
Nominating Bernie Sanders would suppress Democratic votes and assure Trump's reelection.  This "open racism" is beginning to work for the Republicans, they know what they are doing.
They want us to go so far left we can't win.
Or at least to seem that way.

The insults against Obama last night are proof it may just be working.

Floridatexan

Floridatexan

bigdog wrote:After that first patronizing sentence I didn't even bother to read the rest of your post.

I have no interest in being told I don't care about injustice or the environment or any of the other major maladies that face this country today.
I am as concerned about them as you are-how totally arrogant and completely ignorant of you to say I am not.
And I'm sure I'm that centrist you are addressing, since there are only a couple of us on this forum.
You apparently feel the  world has to be a place of constant warfare, good vs evil, with no room for compromise or logical thinking in-between.
That labels you a fanatic in my book.
"United we stand" does not just apply to this country, it also applies to the Democratic party. The Democratic party was dead until Clinton came along with some Centrist ideas and when he did, reasonable people began to join in. People like you were the ones criticizing President Obama last night, saying his healthcare didn't go far enough, and he deported too many immigrants.  Do you honestly think the Democratic party is going to gain one single African American vote by criticizing Obama? Sorry lady, but those are the thoughts of a fool.

If you love Donald Trump so much, go ahead and push your agenda and tear the Democratic party apart. Insult over half of the voters in the country by calling them names. Tell them only YOU know what's right because you have pure thoughts and will never, ever compromise a one of them. Then enjoy the loss of this country that has only lasted as long as it has because of compromise between the two sides of nearly every argument.
The way to get rid of those who won't compromise is to kick them out of office. Not to become one of them.

My post was quoted in its entirety without comment. You should try not to read something into everything I post...you know, try to keep an open mind. I love the way you insult me and accuse me of being insulting...that's Trump disease...narcissism. Yes, I do try to live a moral life. What Trump is doing, especially to the immigrant children, is detestable and evil. Yes, there's good vs. evil, and all it takes is "for good men (and women) to do nothing." There is NO ROOM FOR COMPROMISE.

bigdog



If you don't want to claim responsibility for the opinion expressed, then why did you start the thread?
You've been arguing against centrists on here for a week now, so don't pretend you don't agree with what you posted. Nobody here is the fool you think they are.

Let me inform you about the "old moderates" in this country. They're not just me and a lot of Americans who speak to their neighbors no matter what political party they are a member of.  They include most of the African American population above the age of 50. A good percentage of them are deeply religious, don't believe in abortion, and couldn't see themselves vote for Mayor Pete at all. But they are Democrats because there is no logical alternative.  They are the voters who will decide who wins this election. They can swing it either way by showing up or not showing up. Your insults towards centrists , as well as Sal's constant insults towards people of the boomer generation, are insults against the very people who will decide if you progressives ever get a chance to even test the ideas in your agenda in the real world. Because without us, Democrats lose.
And if Trump wins, you can toss all your progressive ideas right down the toilet. We can all toss all our ideas of what America is supposed to be right down the toilet. Also, nobody has said we should compromise with Donald Trump. He needs to go. That's what we all agree on. But  moderate is still not a dirty word.

BTW., I haven't seen those copies of posts where I took George Zimmerman's side over Trayvon Martin's, or where I claimed police were so perfect and could do no wrong. You claimed they existed and we had a huge argument over those things. Since I have always known Trayvon Martin was murdered and that police are out of control pretty much nationwide, I'm waiting for you to find them and point them out. I'm truly curious. I'd like to know what name they were posted under. I'm sure they must exist, RIGHT?

Floridatexan

Floridatexan

bigdog wrote:If you don't want to claim responsibility for the opinion expressed, then why did you start the thread?
You've been arguing against centrists on here for a week now, so don't pretend you don't agree with what you posted. Nobody here is the fool you think they are.

Let me inform you about the "old moderates" in this country. They're not just me and a lot of Americans who speak to their neighbors no matter what political party they are a member of.  They include most of the African American population above the age of 50. A good percentage of them are deeply religious, don't believe in abortion, and couldn't see themselves vote for Mayor Pete at all. But they are Democrats because there is no logical alternative.  They are the voters who will decide who wins this election. They can swing it either way by showing up or not showing up. Your insults towards centrists , as well as Sal's constant insults towards people of the boomer generation, are insults against the very people who will decide if you progressives ever get a chance to even test the ideas in your agenda in the real world. Because without us, Democrats lose.
And if Trump wins, you can toss all your progressive ideas right down the toilet. We can all toss all our ideas of what America is supposed to be right down the toilet. Also, nobody has said we should compromise with Donald Trump. He needs to go. That's what we all agree on. But  moderate is still not a dirty word.

BTW., I haven't seen those copies of posts where I took George Zimmerman's side over Trayvon Martin's, or where I claimed police were so perfect and could do no wrong. You claimed they existed and we had a huge argument over those things. Since I have always known Trayvon Martin was murdered and that police are out of control pretty much nationwide, I'm waiting for you to find them and point them out. I'm truly curious. I'd like to know what name they were posted under. I'm sure they must exist, RIGHT?

I don't remember what it was that we disagreed on, and how the hell would I know what name you were using at any given time? I don't need your grief nor disdain because you think you've got everything figured into a nice, neat little package that fits inside your skull. Leave me alone or you will reap the whirlwind.

bigdog



Well, I don't know what whirlwind you think I'm going to reap. If you're discussing getting kicked off of this forum that's not exactly a "whirlwind." I'd suggest you need to stop telling people this is NO COUNTRY for THEM which is the title you chose for this thread, isn't it?

Donald Trump and his buddies like to tell people to go back to where they came from. Apparently, you agree with him in the respect that if someone does not agree with you, there's no room for them in YOUR COUNTRY.  Evidently that includes the 52% of African Americans who support Joe Biden, right? If it includes me, it has to include them too. They are moderates too lady. Are they supposed to go back to Africa? Huh? This is no country for them, right?  


Here's your whirlwind- I'm an American and I'll vote in a way I think will best protect my country, and you don't get to tell me or anyone else that this is not our country or that this is not our party.
I don't know what party you think you belong to, but that's not what Democrats do. Democrats are a big tent party and all different kinds of people are allowed in.

Don't start talking about me reaping the wind unless you think you can do something that would bother me. If you think getting kicked off a forum that does not respect the opinions of all posters is a big ass deal, you're wrong. 

And the reason you haven't found those posts is they don't exist. You know it by now. What you don't know is how to apologize. 

F--k  your "whirlwind."  It's less than a dogs fart.

10No Country for Old Moderates Empty Re: No Country for Old Moderates 8/3/2019, 10:40 am

Floridatexan

Floridatexan

bigdog wrote:Well, I don't know what whirlwind you think I'm going to reap. If you're discussing getting kicked off of this forum that's not exactly a "whirlwind." I'd suggest you need to stop telling people this is NO COUNTRY for THEM which is the title you chose for this thread, isn't it?

Donald Trump and his buddies like to tell people to go back to where they came from. Apparently, you agree with him in the respect that if someone does not agree with you, there's no room for them in YOUR COUNTRY.  Evidently that includes the 52% of African Americans who support Joe Biden, right? If it includes me, it has to include them too. They are moderates too lady. Are they supposed to go back to Africa? Huh? This is no country for them, right?  


Here's your whirlwind- I'm an American and I'll vote in a way I think will best protect my country, and you don't get to tell me or anyone else that this is not our country or that this is not our party.
I don't know what party you think you belong to, but that's not what Democrats do. Democrats are a big tent party and all different kinds of people are allowed in.

Don't start talking about me reaping the wind unless you think you can do something that would bother me. If you think getting kicked off a forum that does not respect the opinions of all posters is a big ass deal, you're wrong. 

And the reason you haven't found those posts is they don't exist. You know it by now. What you don't know is how to apologize. 

F--k  your "whirlwind."  It's less than a dogs fart.

I'm sick and tired of your BULLSHIT. If you're an example of the local "movers and shakers" in the Democratic Party, it's no damn wonder we never win. Yes, I've been asked to be more active, but it was always at a time when I had serious illness in my family...mainly my husband. The idea that Democrats should swing to the middle in our current crisis is abhorrent.

11No Country for Old Moderates Empty Re: No Country for Old Moderates 8/3/2019, 11:28 am

othershoe1030

othershoe1030

Sal wrote:
Floridatexan wrote:

Politicians and pundits need to get over the idea that the middle will save us. White supremacist terrorism is going largely unchecked, states are trying to make abortion punishable by prison time, and we are running large-scale baby jails and concentration camps on the border. There’s no such thing as moderates anymore — only those who can tolerate these injustices, and those who can’t.



Tru dat.

I see a lot of reactions on the political talk shows about how Trump's racially charged comments are turning people (who are not in his base) off. Seven or eight Republican congressmen have decided not to run for re-election. They know the Dems will hold the house and that it's no fun to be in the minority party in the House.

One who announced his retirement is Rep. Hurd from Texas. He's the only Republican person of color in the House at this point. It is hard to get other non-whites to run for office, to be part of a group in which they are the lone representative of their ethnicity. That makes Hurd's decision even more important.

Many more Republicans than Democrats are not running for re-election. Perhaps this in an indication that they don't want to be associated with the current despicable administration? Perhaps they are tired of being expected to defend every mindless Tweet? It would be nice, considering they don't have to be re-elected, that they might push back and renounce the horrible policies of Trump/Miller, but that looks like too much to ask. That's really a sorry situation.

12No Country for Old Moderates Empty Re: No Country for Old Moderates 8/3/2019, 12:05 pm

bigdog



Floridatexan wrote:
bigdog wrote:Well, I don't know what whirlwind you think I'm going to reap. If you're discussing getting kicked off of this forum that's not exactly a "whirlwind." I'd suggest you need to stop telling people this is NO COUNTRY for THEM which is the title you chose for this thread, isn't it?

Donald Trump and his buddies like to tell people to go back to where they came from. Apparently, you agree with him in the respect that if someone does not agree with you, there's no room for them in YOUR COUNTRY.  Evidently that includes the 52% of African Americans who support Joe Biden, right? If it includes me, it has to include them too. They are moderates too lady. Are they supposed to go back to Africa? Huh? This is no country for them, right?  


Here's your whirlwind- I'm an American and I'll vote in a way I think will best protect my country, and you don't get to tell me or anyone else that this is not our country or that this is not our party.
I don't know what party you think you belong to, but that's not what Democrats do. Democrats are a big tent party and all different kinds of people are allowed in.

Don't start talking about me reaping the wind unless you think you can do something that would bother me. If you think getting kicked off a forum that does not respect the opinions of all posters is a big ass deal, you're wrong. 

And the reason you haven't found those posts is they don't exist. You know it by now. What you don't know is how to apologize. 

F--k  your "whirlwind."  It's less than a dogs fart.

I'm sick and tired of your BULLSHIT.  If you're an example of the local "movers and shakers" in the Democratic Party, it's no damn wonder we never win.  Yes, I've been asked to be more active, but it was always at a time when I had serious illness in my family...mainly my husband.  The idea that Democrats should swing to the middle in our current crisis is abhorrent.  

Just another argument from a progressive who wants to claim Hillary Clinton's 3 million vote win in the popular vote means the Democratic party is dead and has to be turned over to them.
If Hillary had lost the popular vote, you might have a leg to stand on. We lose the popular vote when we nominate liberals like John Kerry.
We win the people's vote  when we nominate moderates like the Clintons and Obama. Because it's not just Democrats and Republicans that vote, it's that huge bloc of independents who also swing the vote, and very few of them are super progressives. 


And I'm pretty tired of arguing with you too. You're a hopeless cause in my book. 

People do what they want to do.

The facts are on my side. I don't have to argue

RealLindaL



bigdog wrote:We lose the popular vote when we nominate liberals like John Kerry.  We win the people's vote  when we nominate moderates like the Clintons and Obama. Because it's not just Democrats and Republicans that vote, it's that huge bloc of independents who also swing the vote, and very few of them are super progressives. 

Irrefutable facts; proven history.  Democrats will ignore these realities at their (and everyone else's in this nation) very great peril.

14No Country for Old Moderates Empty Re: No Country for Old Moderates 8/4/2019, 11:14 am

Floridatexan

Floridatexan

RealLindaL wrote:
bigdog wrote:We lose the popular vote when we nominate liberals like John Kerry.  We win the people's vote  when we nominate moderates like the Clintons and Obama. Because it's not just Democrats and Republicans that vote, it's that huge bloc of independents who also swing the vote, and very few of them are super progressives. 

Irrefutable facts; proven history.  Democrats will ignore these realities at their (and everyone else's in this nation) very great peril.

HORSE SHIT. John Kerry is a decorated war veteran who blew the whistle on Vietnam when he returned to the states. He was attacked by a bunch of partisan military types who didn't like his exposing their malfeasance. And, there was electronic voter fraud in Ohio in 2004...documented...not speculation. There was also voter manipulation in Florida in 2000. George W Bush never won an election. When R's can't win, they cheat. This is no ordinary election, just like those weren't...but this is much worse, because we have a FASCIST in the White House and the R's in Congress are his enablers...which makes them fascist as well. If you're a "moderate" in this climate, you stand for nothing.

RealLindaL



Floridatexan wrote:If you're a "moderate" in this climate, you stand for nothing.  

Speaking of horse crap, that's the biggest load of it I've ever seen. You can write excuse after excuse, rationale after rationale, but the bottom line is perfectly visible in the RESULTS.  

Further,  in the above nasty attack you've just insulted the majority of liberal-leaning speaking voices on this very forum -- a microcosm for the nation.

Pkr, Joani, and a couple of others must be thoroughly enjoying the seeds of dissension you and Sal are sowing here.

This nation is so screwed -- Trump 2021, here we come. O. M. G.

PkrBum

PkrBum

These are your contemporaries. Enjoy comrades.

Floridatexan

Floridatexan

RealLindaL wrote:
Floridatexan wrote:If you're a "moderate" in this climate, you stand for nothing.  

Speaking of horse crap, that's the biggest load of it I've ever seen. You can write excuse after excuse, rationale after rationale, but the bottom line is perfectly visible in the RESULTS.  

Further,  in the above nasty attack you've just insulted the majority of liberal-leaning speaking voices on this very forum -- a microcosm for the nation.

Pkr, Joani, and a couple of others must be thoroughly enjoying the seeds of dissension you and Sal are sowing here.

This nation is so screwed -- Trump 2021, here we come.   O.  M.  G.

I don't really care what you think of me. "bigdog" has repeatedly accused me of saying things I didn't even come close to saying. Y'all need to wake the hell up and smell the coffee. And you were already mad at me over the beach kerfuffle. We can't have milquetoast Dems. We need tough leaders offering real solutions. Like Elizabeth Warren and yes, like Bernie Sanders, who has fought for human rights in this country since the 1960's. Uncle Joe has too much baggage, although I will say he served honorably as VP.

bigdog



Excuse me. You accused me of thinking the police can do no wrong and of being on the side of George Zimmerman when Trayvon Martin died. The person that Joanie and Pkr are laughing at here at is you. They won't say it because they wouldn't defend me if their lives depended on it, but they both know that One of the reasons I argued with my sister-in-law and with the "girls club" and with Joanie in the past was that they thought I had no respect for the police or the military, and Joanie was especially pissed because I said 911 was not the most important event in American history. Now that I've seen the memorial and how touching it is, it is STILL not the Civil War, or Pearl Harbor, or the Emancipation Proclamation, or a lot of other events that altered the course of history so critically in this country. It was a terrible tragedy that Bush used to go into a war he would have started with or without it.  
And I have  always said 100% that Trayvon Martin was murdered and that Zimmerman should be in jail today over it. 
Implying otherwise was totally outrageous.

YOU ACCUSED ME, in a post that I CAN PULL up that I said all that stuff and that we had a big argument over it. I said that never happened. 
You were wrong and it's you that started this argument. We had no argument on the old forum. I liked you very much when you were over there, but you seem to have lost it, maybe because of Trump, I don't know, but you've definitely gone Bernie Sanders whacko since those days.

So don't go lying and saying anybody is picking on you. You and Sal have done nothing but call people that disagree with you Republicans, which is the dirtiest word in the English language today, and you damn well know it. I don't appreciate it one bit.
If you were as passionate as you claim you are, I'm betting your husband wasn't sick in every election since you were of voting age, and you'd have gotten out and been more active. People do what's important to them. So don't talk to me about how much I care.

If you can't do anything else, you can donate money to your favorite candidate. Yard signs don't get printed for free. Every 5 dollars helps.

19No Country for Old Moderates Empty Re: No Country for Old Moderates 8/4/2019, 10:12 pm

bigdog



And by the way, not a single moderate on this forum, not one, has said there is no room In the Democratic party for progressives. 

But that's what you and Sal have said over and over about moderates. So don't go blaming us for the argument.
The Democratic party has been Centrist for years. Most Democrats I know are very happy that progressives have  joined the party instead of going out and forming a third party of their own. They are very welcome here. What they are not welcome to do is to join the club and tell the members that have been here for years that we have to leave. You don't get to do that. My generation is far from dead yet. As Don Adams used to say (since you're too young to know) "sorry 'bout that chief." And I say it with all the sincerity he meant every time he said it. 

And do try and remember that when you exclude moderates from the Democratic party, you also have to exclude all those African Americans over 50 who strongly support Joe Biden because they are centrists too.
What party would you suggest they go to?  Since you don't want them in yours, surely YOU must have a suggestion.

Or do you think they don't give a damn who the president is either because they're moderates?
You don't know anything about how anybody feels except for your own self.

So why don't you, just for once, stop trying to tell people whether they care or not?

RealLindaL



Floridatexan wrote:
RealLindaL wrote:
Floridatexan wrote:If you're a "moderate" in this climate, you stand for nothing.  

Speaking of horse crap, that's the biggest load of it I've ever seen. You can write excuse after excuse, rationale after rationale, but the bottom line is perfectly visible in the RESULTS.  

Further,  in the above nasty attack you've just insulted the majority of liberal-leaning speaking voices on this very forum -- a microcosm for the nation.

Pkr, Joani, and a couple of others must be thoroughly enjoying the seeds of dissension you and Sal are sowing here.

This nation is so screwed -- Trump 2021, here we come.   O.  M.  G.

I don't really care what you think of me.  "bigdog" has repeatedly accused me of saying things I didn't even come close to saying.  Y'all need to wake the hell up and smell the coffee. And you were already mad at me over the beach kerfuffle.  We can't have milquetoast Dems.  We need tough leaders offering real solutions.  Like Elizabeth Warren and yes, like Bernie Sanders, who has fought for human rights in this country since the 1960's.  Uncle Joe has too much baggage, although I will say he served honorably as VP.

"Mad at you" over the leasehold title issue?  Ha. You over-rate your importance, girl.  My feelings on that subject, which have ZERO to do with you as to what we're discussing here now, have long been general frustration at the greater community's cavernous ignorance on the island issue, all fomented by one very revengeful, highly manipulative organizer, and aided by most county residents' failure to take the time to understand the FACTS of the situation, rather than succumbing to the manufactured hysteria.  Y'all just didn't want to hear it. Fine.  Time has already begun to prove what a poor decision that was.  

No, my deep disdain for Trump and fear of his continuing erosion of our nation's values (not to mention our Constitution) far outweigh any opinions I may have for or about Floridatexan, one way or the other, so please get over yourself.  My response wasn't about "what I think of you" personally (even though you seem to take just about everything that way), but what I think about our chances (or not) of getting rid of this horrid president if the far left faction succeeds in dominating the nomination process, while completely ignoring the realities of the greater electorate's clear preferences.  

And insulting fellow liberals en masse is no way to win an election.  As I've said before, all that does is make Republicans (and Russians!) very happy.

21No Country for Old Moderates Empty Re: No Country for Old Moderates 8/14/2019, 2:34 pm

Floridatexan

Floridatexan


The Democratic Middle Already Lost to Trump Once. Do We Really Want This to Happen Again?

"I don't understand why anybody goes to the trouble of running for president of the United States just to say all the things we can't do and shouldn't fight for. "

- Elizabeth Warren

With the current president and the rest of his party intent on destroying Obamacare, healthcare is the perfect issue to display the differences between the opposition and the status quo. A recent poll showed that 51 percent of Republicans supported "a policy of Medicare for All". This gives Democrats the perfect vehicle to display why voters should allow them to take control of the White House from a president whose justice department has joined a lawsuit that, if successful, would remove protections from the most vulnerable, including those with pre-existing conditions. Instead, the moderate Democrats in the field of presidential candidates have attacked the quickest path to universal health-care coverage. Even worse, they have done so by framing it as a way to "get rid " of the protections provided by Obamacare.

Joe Biden made it clear that the passage of Obamacare was "a big fu&!ng deal." It did, in fact, add nearly 20 million people to the health-insurance rolls. However, the coverage it provided was far from universal as about 27.3 million people (8.6 percent of the population) continued to lack health-insurance coverage in 2016. By relying on private health insurance, Obamacare ensured that marketing costs, corporate profits and CEO salaries would continue to contribute to inflated health-care costs. Additionally, the continued reliance on employer-sponsored insurance decreased our competitiveness against corporations based in countries providing government-based healthcare and left employees vulnerable to losing their coverage when they lose or leave their jobs.

- Advertisement -
The Republican assault on Obamacare has also shown the limitations of incremental improvements to the health-care system. While Trump and his cronies were unsuccessful in their attempts to repeal Obama's biggest legislative achievement and replace it with absolutely nothing at all, they did enough damage so that "the number of uninsured increased by more than half a million in 2017." This was the first time since the implementation of Obamacare that the number of people who were unprotected by health insurance increased. Any system implemented to fix what Trump has broken needs to be done in a way that provides protection from future Republican administrations.

One advantage to a Medicare-for-All system is that every American will have skin in the game. With the exception of the very rich, they will depend on the system working and will have a reason to hold politicians accountable for ensuring that it is not weakened. The universality of coverage is what keeps Social Security protected. Republicans and moderate Democrats score points attacking Democratic Socialism, but Social Security is a type of benefit that would be covered by that banner.

Alternately, Biden and other corporate Democrats propose giving the uninsured the option of participating in Medicare, a solution that they rejected during the original passage of Obamacare. The problem with that solution is that it can be too easily reversed in the future; Democrats giveth and Republicans taketh away. With only the most vulnerable benefiting, politicians will find it too easy to bargain away the programs. To ensure the needed protections, those with political power must be convinced that it is in their best interests to do so.

- Advertisement -
Hillary Clinton did not lose to Trump because she was less qualified; rather she lost because she represented the status quo in a system where the working class has fallen behind. Instead of learning from this experience and promoting a health-care program that would eliminate health-care insecurity, the moderate Democrats use Clinton's failed strategy of fear-mongering to recycle the Republican line that Medicare for All would outlaw private health insurance instead of focusing on the fact that it would make it obsolete. After all, who needs an overpriced, ineffective health-care system where coverage can be taken away at will when we can have one that "eliminates premiums, deductibles, and co-payments"?

Even a study funded by the ultra-right-wing Koch brothers agreed that Medicare For All "would reduce national spending on health care while expanding and improving coverage" and that "the average person would save more on health care than they would spend on increased taxes. " How is that not a winning strategy in 2020?

"I understand the appeal of Medicare for All. But folks supporting it should be clear that it means getting rid of Obamacare, and I'm not for that. "

- Joe Biden


Carl Petersen is a parent, advocate for students with special education needs, elected member of the Northridge East Neighborhood Council and was a Green Party candidate in LAUSD's District 2 School Board race. During the campaign, he was endorsed by the Network for Public Education (NPE) Action and Dr. Diane Ravitch called him a "strong supporter of public schools." His past blogs can be found at www.ChangeTheLAUSD.com. Opinions are his own.


https://www.opednews.com/articles/The-Democratic-Middle-Alre-by-Carl-Petersen-Medicare-For-All-190814-17.html

22No Country for Old Moderates Empty Re: No Country for Old Moderates 8/14/2019, 4:05 pm

RealLindaL



Floridatexan wrote:Hillary Clinton did not lose to Trump because she was less qualified; rather she lost because she represented the status quo in a system where the working class has fallen behind.

Actually, NO - are you kidding????  She lost because of the friggin' electoral college system, PERIOD.  

What don't you understand about THREE MILLION MORE VOTES???

And the Russian influence -- fomenting DIVISIVENESS -- sure didn't help any.  So just keep up the good work, saying there's no room for moderates in YOUR party, dividing things even further.  Huge, huge mistake.

23No Country for Old Moderates Empty Re: No Country for Old Moderates 8/14/2019, 4:05 pm

zsomething



Floridatexan wrote:
The Democratic Middle Already Lost to Trump Once.  Do We Really Want This to Happen Again?

I would argue that the Democratic Middle lost to Trump (on an electoral college technicality that we really need to do away with in the future - it's nonrepresentative of public will) by a far narrower margin than a far-left candidate would have.  Scumdog Bernie got stomped like the doormat on a muddy day in the primary, and half his support was from caucus states (another outdated, nonrepresentative thing we need to do away with), so it continues to mystify me why people maintain this fantasy that he'd have had a better chance. He couldn't win among Democrats, so how's he gonna win in the world at large? It's ridiculous.

It's possible that a far-left candidate could win, but this still remains a fact that'd have to be overcome:  https://news.gallup.com/poll/183713/socialist-presidential-candidates-least-appealing.aspx

What really got us Trump is Bernie purists who pouted their way through the election and sat home or voted Jill Stein because they thought the democratic process of selecting a candidate was "cheating."  Bernie got us Trump, far more than anyone else did.  And I'm still hoping he either drops out of the race soon, or I'd be fine with it if the overrated simp just fucking dies.   I'm fine with Warren because she actually has plans that aren't just hippie fantasies (I still don't think some of them would be workable, but at least she's actually thinking rather than just dreaming), but Bernie's a burden and a liability who's still dividing our side, just for the sake of his own overinflated ego.   The man also bores the shit out of me -- I don't think he has much more of a vocabulary than Trump.  They're both like See 'n' Says -- no matter where you spin the arrow, when you pull the string you're going to hear one of about eight things, guaranteed.

24No Country for Old Moderates Empty Re: No Country for Old Moderates 8/15/2019, 1:17 am

RealLindaL



Solid post, zs. Thanks.

25No Country for Old Moderates Empty Re: No Country for Old Moderates 8/15/2019, 10:44 am

Floridatexan

Floridatexan

zsomething wrote:
Floridatexan wrote:
The Democratic Middle Already Lost to Trump Once.  Do We Really Want This to Happen Again?

I would argue that the Democratic Middle lost to Trump (on an electoral college technicality that we really need to do away with in the future - it's nonrepresentative of public will) by a far narrower margin than a far-left candidate would have.  Scumdog Bernie got stomped like the doormat on a muddy day in the primary, and half his support was from caucus states (another outdated, nonrepresentative thing we need to do away with), so it continues to mystify me why people maintain this fantasy that he'd have had a better chance.  He couldn't win among Democrats, so how's he gonna win in the world at large?  It's ridiculous.

It's possible that a far-left candidate could win, but this still remains a fact that'd have to be overcome:  https://news.gallup.com/poll/183713/socialist-presidential-candidates-least-appealing.aspx

What really got us Trump is Bernie purists who pouted their way through the election and sat home or voted Jill Stein because they thought the democratic process of selecting a candidate was "cheating."  Bernie got us Trump, far more than anyone else did.  And I'm still hoping he either drops out of the race soon, or I'd be fine with it if the overrated simp just fucking dies.   I'm fine with Warren because she actually has plans that aren't just hippie fantasies (I still don't think some of them would be workable, but at least she's actually thinking rather than just dreaming), but Bernie's a burden and a liability who's still dividing our side, just for the sake of his own overinflated ego.   The man also bores the shit out of me -- I don't think he has much more of a vocabulary than Trump.  They're both like See 'n' Says -- no matter where you spin the arrow, when you pull the string you're going to hear one of about eight things, guaranteed.

A lot of the "Bernie bros" crap was contrived. He was my first choice then. When he didn't get the nomination (for a number of reasons), he began supporting Hillary and campaigning for her. I thought her campaign was lackluster overall, but I still voted for her. I had hoped that Warren would run in 2016. Please don't compare Bernie to Don the Con; they're on opposite sides of the fence. Yes, he can be repetitive; people seem to be ignoring the direction this country has been on...arguably since Reagan, with some saving grace from Clinton and Obama...and a lot of voters don't understand how policies impact them. They're learning now...at least some of them.

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