The Confederate Flag and Southern Sensibilities ....

PkrBum wrote:" I haven't the foggiest idea what part of being descended from people who approved of slavery, abuse, oppression and cruelty ranks as something today's southerners hold dear."

I wonder the same thing about progressives.

Wordslinger wrote:

I haven't the foggiest idea what part of being descended from people who approved of slavery, abuse, oppression and cruelty ranks as something today's southerners hold dear.  In fact, somebody tell me just what is so precious about that Southern heritage?  There's nothing about the deep south that sounds the least charming to genuine human beings.

Wordslinger wrote:
I haven't the foggiest idea what part of being descended from people who approved of slavery, abuse, oppression and cruelty ranks as something today's southerners hold dear.

SheWrites wrote:
My Southern family was not slave owners.  Just poor farmers in Mississippi. My Southern heritage is precious -

Bob wrote:"The South" is now two places.  The urban south is one place.  The rural south is quite a different place.

Take a more urban place,  like Charlotte or Nashville or Atlanta.  Once upon a time conservative places,  they're now liberal places.

Take a rural place,  like Bonifay or Waycross or Demopolis.  Still conservative places.

But this ambiguity is not found only in "the south".  Exactly the same thing exists in California.  The urban coast is liberal.  The rural central valley,  conservative.

Sal wrote:You can substitute the terms "erudite" for "liberal" and "ignorant" for "conservative".

EmeraldGhost wrote:Tell us where your people are from 'WordSlinger.'  

What's your history ... betch we can find some things to tell you ought to be ashamed of.

EmeraldGhost wrote:

SheWrites wrote:
My Southern family was not slave owners.  Just poor farmers in Mississippi. My Southern heritage is precious -

My "Southern family" were slave owners .... they owned as many as 12 (2 families) for about 15 years prior to the civil war.   They were originally from Baltimore & New York ... and Germany before that.  They fought in the American Revolution (for the "patriot" side) They assisted those former slave families after the war, first by setting them up as share-croppers and later by selling them land on the cheap ... and even outright giving them some.   My family were friends with those families & their descendants right up into the 1970's when I was a teen.  I was friends with, went to school, played football with, and hauled hay right along side with some of their descendants.  I can recall coming home from my school that had been integrated (without problems) for some years & watching Walter Cronkite telling us about busing and race riots in the north.  

If you really study history, you will find most people today in the South are not descended from the large cruel plantation owners popular history likes to tell us about - and what slavery they did engage in was not the same thing.  It was a more small-scale thing.   Those big plantations along the Mississippi River and along the Atlantic Seaboard were established mostly by French & English immigrants & pre-existed the immigration of the people's from the American north most white Southerners are descended from today.

I am also the descendant of Mississippi Choctaw Indians ... and that's a whole 'nother story.  Would you like to discuss "The Trail of Tears" conducted under the good ole Stars-and=Stripes?  Shall we ban that flag as well?

I am proud of all the peoples from whom I am descended ... and I recognize they were not all saints and they were not all sinners.  They were people of their time and they were, by and large, good people.

EmeraldGhost wrote:

Wordslinger wrote:
I haven't the foggiest idea what part of being descended from people who approved of slavery, abuse, oppression and cruelty ranks as something today's southerners hold dear.

What part of being descended from people who enshrined official support/sanction of the institution of slavery within it's very Constitution do Americans hold dear?   Ever hear of Article IV, Section 2, Clause 3 of the United States Constitution?  Also known as the Fugitive Slave Clause.   Ever hear of the Fugitive Slave Acts of 1793 and 1850?   Yes, Virginia .... slavery was entirely legal in the United States up until after the civil war ... and approved of by many in the North.  

What part of being descended from people who sold their own people into slavery do blacks hold dear?

What part of being descended from yankee ship owners & merchants who became wealthy via the trans-Atlantic slave trade do northerners hold dear?

What part of being descended from people who engaged in indentured-servitude to northerners hold dear?

What part of being descended from northern factory owners who engaged in child labor do northerners hold dear?

What part of being descended from people who engaged in torture and who massacred white pioneers despite their tribes having made treaties with them do Native Americans hold dear?

What part of being descended from people who engaged in witch trials, burnings, and hangings do people hold dear?

What part of being descended from people who engaged in the rape of Nanking; enslaved Korean men into forced labor; and enslaved Korean women into prostitution do Japanese-Americans hold dear?

What part of being being descended from people (Spanish/Aztecs/Mayas) who engaged in slavery do Mexican-American's hold dear?


New York State did not passed it's first gradual abolition law in 1799 and did not finally abolish slavery until 1827 (New York slave owners just sold them over the river into New Jersey ... how convenient.)

Massachusetts was the center for the trans-Atlantic slave trade.  Slavery was common in 18th century Mass.

There were over 11,000 slaves in New Jersey in 1799.  6.2% of the population.    A gradual abolition law did not come about until 1804 and mostly just converted them to indentured servants for life.   Full abolition did not come about till 1846 ... but even that only converted them to "apprentices" for their masters.    



etc etc

There's more to the South than just slavery, 'WordSlinger' ... and slavery is not what the flag represents nor is the idea of it "something Southerners today hold dear" as you so incorrectly assume.   The so-called "civil war" was about secession & the limits of State sovereignty.  Slavery was just the economic trigger event.    Not a lot of people in the northern States previously had much of a problem with the Southern states engaging in slavery ... they knew the benefited from it.  Lincoln himself said if he could preserve the Union without freeing one slave he would do so ... yet he is revered and no one is talking about tearing his statue down?

No slight to African-Americans .... but, sorry, the civil-war was not just all about you.


I don't know of any cases of northerners arguing that their symbols of racial hatred must remain flying on state property. Do you?

Wordslinger wrote:

EmeraldGhost wrote:

Wordslinger wrote:
I haven't the foggiest idea what part of being descended from people who approved of slavery, abuse, oppression and cruelty ranks as something today's southerners hold dear.

What part of being descended from people who enshrined official support/sanction of the institution of slavery within it's very Constitution do Americans hold dear?   Ever hear of Article IV, Section 2, Clause 3 of the United States Constitution?  Also known as the Fugitive Slave Clause.   Ever hear of the Fugitive Slave Acts of 1793 and 1850?   Yes, Virginia .... slavery was entirely legal in the United States up until after the civil war ... and approved of by many in the North.  

What part of being descended from people who sold their own people into slavery do blacks hold dear?

What part of being descended from yankee ship owners & merchants who became wealthy via the trans-Atlantic slave trade do northerners hold dear?

What part of being descended from people who engaged in indentured-servitude to northerners hold dear?

What part of being descended from northern factory owners who engaged in child labor do northerners hold dear?

What part of being descended from people who engaged in torture and who massacred white pioneers despite their tribes having made treaties with them do Native Americans hold dear?

What part of being descended from people who engaged in witch trials, burnings, and hangings do people hold dear?

What part of being descended from people who engaged in the rape of Nanking; enslaved Korean men into forced labor; and enslaved Korean women into prostitution do Japanese-Americans hold dear?

What part of being being descended from people (Spanish/Aztecs/Mayas) who engaged in slavery do Mexican-American's hold dear?


New York State did not passed it's first gradual abolition law in 1799 and did not finally abolish slavery until 1827 (New York slave owners just sold them over the river into New Jersey ... how convenient.)

Massachusetts was the center for the trans-Atlantic slave trade.  Slavery was common in 18th century Mass.

There were over 11,000 slaves in New Jersey in 1799.  6.2% of the population.    A gradual abolition law did not come about until 1804 and mostly just converted them to indentured servants for life.   Full abolition did not come about till 1846 ... but even that only converted them to "apprentices" for their masters.    



etc etc

There's more to the South than just slavery, 'WordSlinger' ... and slavery is not what the flag represents nor is the idea of it "something Southerners today hold dear" as you so incorrectly assume.   The so-called "civil war" was about secession & the limits of State sovereignty.  Slavery was just the economic trigger event.    Not a lot of people in the northern States previously had much of a problem with the Southern states engaging in slavery ... they knew the benefited from it.  Lincoln himself said if he could preserve the Union without freeing one slave he would do so ... yet he is revered and no one is talking about tearing his statue down?

No slight to African-Americans .... but, sorry, the civil-war was not just all about you.


I don't know of any cases of northerners arguing that their symbols of racial hatred must remain flying on state property.  Do you?

SheWrites wrote:

Wordslinger wrote:

I haven't the foggiest idea what part of being descended from people who approved of slavery, abuse, oppression and cruelty ranks as something today's southerners hold dear.  In fact, somebody tell me just what is so precious about that Southern heritage?  There's nothing about the deep south that sounds the least charming to genuine human beings.

My Southern family was not slave owners.  Just poor farmers in Mississippi. My Southern heritage is precious - I've written of my grandmother raising 7 kids on her own.  She genuinely loved people and helped ALL - regardless of the color of their skin.  Her children grew up to inherit her beautiful love for mankind and her hospitality. There's absolutely nothing exclusive to the south about a grandmother loving her grandchildren. Am I right?

You, Wordslinger, are a cold man.  If you take on political issues and paste them over the beauty of the people and true culture of the South...that's your problem and sure comes off as highly bigoted. I'm not complaining about the use of grits, key lime pie, or liking Johnny Cash. The issue, once again, is whether the hateful flag of the Confederacy, and all it represents, should be allowed to hang over state property. It's a cold hard fact that the KKK and virtually every white racist group of nutcases uses the stars and bars as its symbol. You want to pretend that flag doesn't really mean white racism, but that's exactly how it's read by most Americans.


The talent found in Southern musicians, artists, writers...you need to experience something outside of your bigoted view of my heritage.  

You offend me.  And I know you could care less.  Nobody is castigating the talents of southern artists. Certainly not me. But you're absolutely right about me being bigoted when it comes to lynching, slave owning, Jim Crow and all the accompanying horrors your ancestors and their neighbors thought were funny and proper.

Your opinions of the bad that clearly happened in the South, no one can deny it, clouds an intelligent possibility of all the good there is in the South.

Why the heck do you live here?  

SheWrites wrote:Wordslinger, you have the power of the pen and the mouth.  You brush too wide a stroke in your OP of the South and its inhabitants who appreciate the heritage of their families.  

You do realize there are people who live in the South who are not proud of the ugly marks in their history, right?

Words can heal.

You divide and continue to point out that which is not in everyone's closet.

You are offensive.

SheWrites wrote:What a load of bull, Wordslinger.

The South is responsible for Dylan Ruth?


Let me pull out the list of haters in the last 25 years who have killed people in shopping malls, schools, theaters, federal buildings...the list goes on.

Do we have a region of people responsible for those?

Wordslinger wrote:

SheWrites wrote:What a load of bull, Wordslinger.

The South is responsible for Dylan Ruth?


Let me pull out the list of haters in the last 25 years who have killed people in shopping malls, schools, theaters, federal buildings...the list goes on.

Do we have a region of people responsible for those?

None of the other mass killers idolized the Rebel flag.  Dylann Roof was your team's mascot.  

Wordslinger wrote:

SheWrites wrote:What a load of bull, Wordslinger.

The South is responsible for Dylan Ruth?


Let me pull out the list of haters in the last 25 years who have killed people in shopping malls, schools, theaters, federal buildings...the list goes on.

Do we have a region of people responsible for those?

None of the other mass killers idolized the Rebel flag.  Dylann Roof was your team's mascot.