Pensacola Discussion Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

This is a forum based out of Pensacola Florida.


You are not connected. Please login or register

Pensacola Discussion Forum » General Discussion » Maritime Park YMCA Officially "Dead"

Maritime Park YMCA Officially "Dead"

+4
Yella
NaNook
Hospital Bob
ZVUGKTUBM
8 posters

Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

Go down  Message [Page 2 of 8]

2seaoat



It would be difficult to find a responsible business person who would have agreed to lease this facility to a shell entity with no collateral or security for the lease obligation. Nevertheless, the City did so under the former weak mayor form of government.


This is simply wrong. Nobody bringing in an 18 million dollar minor league team is going to negotiate using the team as collateral. Absurd. However, if the City had been concerned they could have required a letter of credit for a sum certain amount to guarantee a default, but again......this is Monday Quarterbacking......the ballpark was suppose to fail.....it would never make any money.....so how can we ask them for additional security. I called this snooker on the lease, not because the City was stupid, no they were listening to the half wits who thought the baseball part of this project would have no attendance, and therefore no profit. How can you ask for additional security when it would cost the tenant more money for the same.....a letter of credit.....when every naysayer was writing into the paper that there would only be 50k attendance. He is simply dead wrong on this one........now if you want to find the real screw up on this lease it is concessions. I would guess with 330k attendance you could be looking at close to a half million in profit which at worse should have been shared with the city. Now, there is a simple course of action over the next eight years to solve a portion of what was left on the table. a 3-5% concession sales tax which could generate another 30-50 k to go with the 750k ticket surcharges. Kerrigan wastes space talking about things which cannot be changed and does not offer simple solutions to making the ballpark portion of the project solvent until eight years from now when the lease will be renegotiated. The ballpark remains a complete success.

Guest


Guest

The ballpark remains a complete success Good deal Thanks for clarifying it for all of us. I guess we have been worrying about nothing. All is good. Play ball.
Poor old Kerrigan pissed away a lot of his time over nothing. All he had to do was ask you. Please Fix the YMCA deal when you have a few minutes. They would appreciate it.

2seaoat



I would have to put my real name on the letter....I cannot do that. I have never personally attacked you but you do make me smile. Here you have the answer to a 100 million dollar question and you can not find a way to get this information/plan to the proper people? Surely you jest...


I tried to get information over the PNJ......I did my part, but Mike said my name has to be on a letter. If I am compromised, I disappear off the forums, and a few of the staff at the PNJ know who I am and have to date not exposed my real identity. I get my shots next thursday, and I have discussed with my wife trying to travel from the Midwest to Pensacola, but my house has tenants, and I am having a real difficult time sleeping if I am not in a lazy boy.....the trip to AZ was very painful. However, I plan to meet personally with some folks when I get there.....check on my property, and one of the first places I am going to meet with people is from engineering to see what calculations they used for storage on the west retention area, and how compacted the soils are which may have never intended to have a building. Once this is established, you can spec elevated first floors and detention under the building pads to make up for the surface area of the parking, hotel, Y structure. Somebody has to stop this silly infighting and understand this can be a win/win for the city, the Y, a hotel, and Mr. Studer. I know none of these players. Yes, it is quite arrogant for me to assume anybody will be wanting to talk to me, but I am certain as I watched the construction of the west retention area that this was a very wasteful use of waterfront. People need to quit being such naysayers and realize that the success of this park impacts every citizen, and visitors to the community.

2seaoat



Poor old Kerrigan pissed away a lot of his time over nothing.

Yes he did......he is not going to get a renegotiation....I would not do it, nor would any business person. What he could do is propose simple solutions. You do the math. 700k projected shortfalls.......$2 surcharge on every ticket, and a 5% sales tax on concession sales.......and you easily cover the shortfall for the entire damn park until people start working together and build out some of the lots.....nope this is more about Mr. Studer than common sense. Mr. Kerrigan is correct that the city got snookered on the lease.....but what was I saying for three years......this thing is going to be so damned successful that they are going to leave money on the table because they are listening to the half wits who think they are going to get 50k attendance. This is simple......and all these political opportunist who are trying to make this difficult.....well some folks are going to engage their brains, the Y will be located in the park.....bet on it.....and there will be some amazing things in the next three years.

Guest


Guest

"The ballpark remains a complete success" or" People need to quit being such naysayers and realize that the success of this park impacts every citizen, and visitors to the community"

If it is already a complete success then what is there to improve?. You missed the part that explains why there is a retention pond to begin with.

Guest


Guest

Have already seem some amazing things in just one year.

2seaoat



You missed the part that explains why there is a retention pond to begin with.



I have spent thirty years doing development and calculating retention requirements. I have personally presented parking on dry retention areas on at least two industrial parks. The calculations are based on a formula of surface area which does not allow absorption, however it is common over at Navarre and Santa Rosa County to have the actual retention under a business where the FEMA elevation requirement bring the first floor above the retention area. This is simply a calculation of the surface area of the structure against the design parameters of the park. If you only lose 10% of the storage on your pilings, you still have to create additional design storage for the new surface area which was not envisioned. This means instead of just a central detention area, each building pad would incorporate retention below the elevated Fema first floor. This stuff is simple, but if you approach the concept plan of the park as being static....it is not....it must be dynamic to meet future tenants, it will require the eventual parking issues to be addressed now, and not later, and it must expand the limited and in my opinion faulty engineering which did not maximize the waterfront.

Guest


Guest

"In my opinion faulty engineering which did not maximize the waterfront." You missed your calling, you could have saved the day. Damn it!!! BTW The original plans had dry retention but it was "valued engineered" out.
The park is a great success, Studer is making money hand over fist and controlling the action. All is good. Play ball. Whats not to like? You won. Be happy.

2seaoat



Now in regard to the Y locating on the retention area. The first thing would require a legal entity in the nature of a joint venture partnership. This would be a for profit entity which would erect the Parking garage, Y, and hotel. A sublease would be created for each of the tenants. So the Garage would pay 400k, the hotel 150k, and the Y 50k a year. The lease payment to the City could be as little as 100k a year leaving 500k a year for amortization against the actual cost of the garage, central elevators, and mechanical systems being brought to the building. The joint venture would be a for profit entity, so in fact property taxes could be collected on the combined assessed value of the structure. The Y would be getting about a third of the cost of the lease proposed under lot 8. Parking would be allocated to each use within the park and undeveloped lots. The capacity of the parking garage would be 400 cars, and a four hour ticket would cost $5 or $10 for eight hours, and $15 for a 24 hour pass. Annual parking passes would be allowed and the allocated parking could be expanded by simply building a structure over the existing parking and creating a simple precast bridge between the structures. The actual parking spaces would be separate limited common elements assigned to uses within the park, and front end loaded on those leases.

The Y now instead of looking at 10 million building costs, would probably easily get by with savings of 30% or the seven million dollar range, and have lease payments which were only 30% of the original proposal. In addition the common elements contributions would allow use of the pool and exercise areas on a retractable pool and exercise area to be used by hotel patrons, bringing savings to the hotel in the range of 30% also. The city would get assessed values in the 21 million dollar range, and the city could issue bonds to finance up to 15 million on the common elements of the building which would be paid from the 500k net lease payments. These numbers are all rough approximations of a very general and rough concept plan, but the beauty of a joint venture Y, Parking, and hotel is that it will be utilizing a lot which was never intended to be developed, yet has great waterfront views.

The key is bringing on board one of many established hotel owners in the Pensacola and Destin markets. Mr. Studers five million could make the capital drive at the Y end up being around 2 million, and this could be a world class facility which is fiscally sound, and clearly not in harms way with the eventual class 4 storm. Earl has proposed ferries running from the park to the beaches and the museum, and this joint venture would establish a foundation where all would profit, and visitors would have a seamless downtown experience, and in my opinion would certainly come back. This same concept translates well for a joint venture over the existing parking lot with condo development instead of the Y and hotel. This has unlimited potential if folks quit looking at it as a zero sum game. You cannot handicap stupidity like it was a golf game....and stupid has been controlling this conversation for too long.

2seaoat



dry retention
I am talking about the area north of lot 8 which is detention area.....it is designed to be dry except at the time of a storm.....I am not talking about the wet retention areas, and I apologize for any confusion.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

Seaoat,

Did you read the Kerrigan letter? If so, doesn't that make you a little more reluctant to keep defending this thing?

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

Bob wrote:As a city resident/taxpayer, it's crucial for us to completely understand this part...

In order to obtain financing for the reclamation of the site and the building of the baseball facility, the City borrowed $58 million. To have sufficient collateral to issue the bonds, the City pledged property tax revenues from within the Community Redevelopment Agency (CRA) district.

What we need to know is whether or not this covers it OR will the general taxpayers outside the CRA district be brought in to bail it out too.
If the liability is limited to the businesses and other taxpayers inside the CRA district, while I feel for them, at least it aint gonna be spread to the rest of us. But somehow I have a sickening feeling that aint gonna be the case.

I posed the above question on Rick's Blog. This is the response I received...
________________

Dale Parker says:
March 26, 2013 at 7:30 pm

Bob,
I am about to confirm your worst fears, well if you live in the City. If you live in the County or Gulf Breeze, well you are immune to the budgetary issues with the City.

But here are a few items we will be paying for.

1.) IF the CRA fails to cover the debt, the balance will be paid by the “City” taxpayers.
2.) If the CMPA cannot repay the $500,000 loan, the balance will be paid by the “City” taxpayers.
3.) If the CMPA cannot pay its bills which is the case now to the tune of $270,000 in the red, the balance will be paid by the “City” taxpayers.
4.) The CRA is shifting 100′s of thousands of dollars of their budget to the General Fund, these budget items will be paid by the “City” taxpayers.
5.) The utilities are being paid by the Taxpayers which explains why no one turns off the lights.
6.) We are paying for and continue to pay for projects approved my Mayor Hayward down there such as road and landscaping… from the General Fund Budget.

Bottom line, any deficit regarding this park is backed by the Citizens of Pensacola should it be the CMPA or CRA. Both of which are already in the red.



Last edited by Bob on 3/27/2013, 8:25 am; edited 2 times in total

2seaoat



Did you read the Kerrigan letter? If so, doesn't that make you a little more reluctant to keep defending this thing?

Yes, I did. There is nothing to defend. The ballpark is an absolute success. There is about a 500-700k shortfall for the entire Maritime Park without any of the leaseholds filled at this time. The City has always had the right to add a surcharge to the tickets, and the City has the right to add a sales tax on concession sales. A measly $2 dollar per ticket and a 5% sales tax on concessions would generate over 800k and cover the entire nut for the entire Maritime Park.......do you understand the Kerrigan letter is one big bitch without recognizing how simple the solution is. Do you realize that Mr. Studer is making a minimum of a million to a million and a half profit on this park per year? Like Kane County, when the lease is renegotiated in eight years the taxpayers could have close to a million dollars a year cash cow for the balance of the life of the park.

I wrote extensively in the PNJ that the naysayers were so convinced that nobody would come to the ballpark, that the city had left too much on the table in lease negotiations. I was met with rampant criticism that they would never turn a profit because the pelicans never had over 900 per game and the park would have around 50k attendance. Try six times that amount. No the baseball part of this park is a raging success. It could easily support the entire nut until lease payments close the gap. Certainly, Mr. Studer will resist a surcharge increase, but until people start working to gether and develop the balance of the lots........the surcharge is a simple stop gap.

Floridatexan

Floridatexan

2seaoat wrote:Now in regard to the Y locating on the retention area. The first thing would require a legal entity in the nature of a joint venture partnership. This would be a for profit entity which would erect the Parking garage, Y, and hotel. A sublease would be created for each of the tenants. So the Garage would pay 400k, the hotel 150k, and the Y 50k a year. The lease payment to the City could be as little as 100k a year leaving 500k a year for amortization against the actual cost of the garage, central elevators, and mechanical systems being brought to the building. The joint venture would be a for profit entity, so in fact property taxes could be collected on the combined assessed value of the structure. The Y would be getting about a third of the cost of the lease proposed under lot 8. Parking would be allocated to each use within the park and undeveloped lots. The capacity of the parking garage would be 400 cars, and a four hour ticket would cost $5 or $10 for eight hours, and $15 for a 24 hour pass. Annual parking passes would be allowed and the allocated parking could be expanded by simply building a structure over the existing parking and creating a simple precast bridge between the structures. The actual parking spaces would be separate limited common elements assigned to uses within the park, and front end loaded on those leases.

The Y now instead of looking at 10 million building costs, would probably easily get by with savings of 30% or the seven million dollar range, and have lease payments which were only 30% of the original proposal. In addition the common elements contributions would allow use of the pool and exercise areas on a retractable pool and exercise area to be used by hotel patrons, bringing savings to the hotel in the range of 30% also. The city would get assessed values in the 21 million dollar range, and the city could issue bonds to finance up to 15 million on the common elements of the building which would be paid from the 500k net lease payments. These numbers are all rough approximations of a very general and rough concept plan, but the beauty of a joint venture Y, Parking, and hotel is that it will be utilizing a lot which was never intended to be developed, yet has great waterfront views.

The key is bringing on board one of many established hotel owners in the Pensacola and Destin markets. Mr. Studers five million could make the capital drive at the Y end up being around 2 million, and this could be a world class facility which is fiscally sound, and clearly not in harms way with the eventual class 4 storm. Earl has proposed ferries running from the park to the beaches and the museum, and this joint venture would establish a foundation where all would profit, and visitors would have a seamless downtown experience, and in my opinion would certainly come back. This same concept translates well for a joint venture over the existing parking lot with condo development instead of the Y and hotel. This has unlimited potential if folks quit looking at it as a zero sum game. You cannot handicap stupidity like it was a golf game....and stupid has been controlling this conversation for too long.

It's really too bad you weren't in on the original plans, Seaoat. You might have brought some honesty to the table. I haven't studied the site, but I like your proposal for the Y...however, that probably won't fly at this point. Your plan, however, could possibly be utilized by a for-profit facility.

That said, the City really dropped the ball on this one, and there is no doubt that voters were misled (understatement!) The allocation of CRA dollars to the CMP has also left other projects unfunded.

Raising ticket and concession prices at this point...where are the mythical families who can afford the already steep prices for a night out? This is Pensacola, not Chicago.

2seaoat



Raising ticket and concession prices at this point...where are the mythical families who can afford the already steep prices for a night out? This is Pensacola, not Chicago.

Well you make a valid point, but we are currently talking about an $8 ticket. Pensacola led the Southern League in attendance. So the price point of $8 was clearly affordable. The city cannot win a renegotiation in Court, but it has always had the surcharge available. My guess is if they went to Mr. Studer and said we are going to raise the Surcharge $2 his marketing people may have to drop the price of the ticket to $7 so the ticket still remained under ten bucks.

Now if you get cooperation and build the Y, Hotel, and parking structure, you are looking at 500k gross revenue from parking 100k cars a year. You add 50 cars for Studer employees, 50 for Y use, and 50 for hotel use and you are talking about $1000 a day parking revenues without any further buildout. The parking garage could have 850k gross revenues and under the concept plan I proposed above the debt service on the entire structure would be about 500k. If people quit fighting and bundle an economy of scale solution, you could collect the 100k lease payment on the new structure, and still have room to collect a $1 per car surcharge which would close the gap by another 100k or so. This means with just the parking structure, Y, and hotel, concession sales tax, and ticket surcharge of $2 this entire project with no further build outs could be showing a profit for taxpayers in the 200k to 300k range, and the Y would have operation costs which were probably less than their current location. So many people were so wrong about this ballpark that they continue to show utter idiocy.....but simply watch how easy it will be to show a profit......a little common sense and cooperation can go a long way.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

Bob wrote:
Dale Parker says:
March 26, 2013 at 7:30 pm

Bob,
I am about to confirm your worst fears, well if you live in the City. If you live in the County or Gulf Breeze, well you are immune to the budgetary issues with the City.

But here are a few items we will be paying for.

1.) IF the CRA fails to cover the debt, the balance will be paid by the “City” taxpayers.
2.) If the CMPA cannot repay the $500,000 loan, the balance will be paid by the “City” taxpayers.
3.) If the CMPA cannot pay its bills which is the case now to the tune of $270,000 in the red, the balance will be paid by the “City” taxpayers.
4.) The CRA is shifting 100′s of thousands of dollars of their budget to the General Fund, these budget items will be paid by the “City” taxpayers.
5.) The utilities are being paid by the Taxpayers which explains why no one turns off the lights.
6.) We are paying for and continue to pay for projects approved my Mayor Hayward down there such as road and landscaping… from the General Fund Budget.

Bottom line, any deficit regarding this park is backed by the Citizens of Pensacola should it be the CMPA or CRA. Both of which are already in the red.

This was my reply to Mr. Parker...
___________

Dale,

That absolutely does confirm my worst fears.

I have only this comment. I hear so many voices now who are telling us, and telling us very loudly, that the solution to all our problems in this country is to shift power from the federal government back to the local governments.

And now I’m reminded of that old saying. Something about going from the frying pan to the fire.
Always remember, every politician we have at the federal level got his start in local government.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

2seaoat wrote: Pensacola led the Southern League in attendance

Seaoat, most every new baseball team, major league, minor league or little league, has a lot of attendance in the beginning. That's the nature of how it works.
I really hope you're not so naive as to want to project what attendance will be in the subsequent years based on the first year. Because that AINT how it works. lol

In reality, unless the Yahoos stay at the top of the rankings (and only fools spending others' money make business decisions expecting that) then attendance will decline. And when that happens the routine is to make the concession more affordable, not less affordable, in attempt to increase revenues.
That's exactly what has transpired with the Mobile Bay Bears. The concession prices are now significantly less than what we pay here.

This applies not just to baseball, seaoat, but to most everything.
A good example is the Garcon Point Bridge. When the traffic using that bridge declines, raising the toll does not solve the problem.
Unfortunately, the only "businessmen" who don't understand that are the ones in government.

Guest


Guest

Nice But you are late to the game. The parking garage has already been designed and property has been set aside for it. When the time is right,the project will"Magically" appear. Watch and see.

You maybe correct on the YMCA returning to the park. I think the entire deal is a type of "False Flag" operation designed to fail so that the YMCA will be put in the position of power. It worked!!! Now even with no plans, no money, no feasibly study, they are being begged to return to the bargaining table.

Mr Studer has again played the perfect hand. Poor me, all of you hate me and I have tired so hard to help you and yet you hate me. LOL perfect He is crying all the way to the bank.

Notice to the players in the game.

Never deal with a guy that doesn't drink.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

Hallmarkgrad1 wrote:

Never deal with a guy that doesn't drink.


If how much one drinks is the criterion for this then I think it's high time I run for mayor. lol

Guest


Guest

Did you read the Kerrigan letter? If so, doesn't that make you a little more reluctant to keep defending this thing?

Yes, I did. There is nothing to defend. The ballpark is an absolute success.




Not for the local taxpayer. Not for the "Beach Berry" yogurt shop inside the stadium. Business sales when games are in play, are great but on non game days, Sales are poor. No business can survive this way.

There are TWO retail areas inside of the stadium. Beach berry rented one but the OTHER remains empty. We dont hear much about the other unrented retail spot do we?

Remember it took many months after the stadium grand opening before Beach Berry set up shop inside the stadium. Nobody was beating down the doors trying to get one of these two retail spots inside the stadium.

Successful? For Studer yes, for taxpayers, No.

Guest


Guest

Seaoat reminds me of Baghdad Bob when we were invading Iraq..

Sal

Sal

Bob wrote:
2seaoat wrote: Pensacola led the Southern League in attendance

Seaoat, most every new baseball team, major league, minor league or little league, has a lot of attendance in the beginning. That's the nature of how it works.
I really hope you're not so naive as to want to project what attendance will be in the subsequent years based on the first year. Because that AINT how it works. lol

In reality, unless the Yahoos stay at the top of the rankings (and only fools spending others' money make business decisions expecting that) then attendance will decline. And when that happens the routine is to make the concession more affordable, not less affordable, in attempt to increase revenues.
That's exactly what has transpired with the Mobile Bay Bears. The concession prices are now significantly less than what we pay here.

This applies not just to baseball, seaoat, but to most everything.
A good example is the Garcon Point Bridge. When the traffic using that bridge declines, raising the toll does not solve the problem.
Unfortunately, the only "businessmen" who don't understand that are the ones in government.

Louisville built a minor league ballpark when I was living there. Over a decade later, it's still successful. As you said, attendance has dropped off a little from the first year, but it's the opposite of a boondoggle. I think there are several reasons for its success. It's a beautiful and well-maintained park, tickets and concessions are reasonably priced, and they cater to both families and young singles with a variety of features and attractions. In other words, good management.

Here in Tampa, we have a couple of minor league parks from which to choose.

The Tampa Yankees' park has expensive and poor quality concessions, a boring layout, and nothing to offer families. They can't give tickets away.

The Clearwater Threshers' park is absolutely gorgeous, they have delicious and reasonably priced concessions, and they are constantly hosting family-friendly promotions. They are setting attendance records.

I don't have a dog in your fight.

Just pointing out that these parks aren't always and inevitably failures.

Guest


Guest

[quote="Bob"]
Hallmarkgrad1 wrote:

Never deal with a guy that doesn't drink.


If how much one drinks is the criterion for this then I think it's high time I run for mayor. lol[/quote

I wish you would. You could hit on all the ladies downtown and drink free. You could give me Collisons job as Public information officer. We could ride around town in CNG limos and keep everyone in line. You could even go the air show in France for FREE!! Think about it. Dont forget your friends....

Mayor Bob The man with Wood in his name ................... I like it

2seaoat



I really hope you're not so naive as to want to project what attendance will be in the subsequent years based on the first year. Because that AINT how it works. lol


No, Bob that actually is not true. You and I have discussed the Kane County Cougars. They actually increased their attendance by another couple hundred thousand from their first year and had three expansions on the stadium. The taxpayers of that County have received about a net 1 million dollars from baseball operations per year. They too gave the store away in the original lease, and like Pensacola the naysayers attacked the County Board President who brought the minor league team to the county. They were brutal. Pensacola criticism of the Park is minor league compared to what they did to that man.......three years after the park was built.....they named it after the County Board Chairman. Citizens now have great family entertainment and a cash cow.....nope, this thing works with 15-20% reductions in attendance right now, and you can bet the top of attendance has not even been reached with marketing on the beaches requiring a couple years for returning vacationers to get a taste of this great ballpark.

Guest


Guest

2seaoat wrote:I really hope you're not so naive as to want to project what attendance will be in the subsequent years based on the first year. Because that AINT how it works. lol


No, Bob that actually is not true. You and I have discussed the Kane County Cougars. They actually increased their attendance by another couple hundred thousand from their first year and had three expansions on the stadium. The taxpayers of that County have received about a net 1 million dollars from baseball operations per year. They too gave the store away in the original lease, and like Pensacola the naysayers attacked the County Board President who brought the minor league team to the county. They were brutal. Pensacola criticism of the Park is minor league compared to what they did to that man.......three years after the park was built.....they named it after the County Board Chairman. Citizens now have great family entertainment and a cash cow.....nope, this thing works with 15-20% reductions in attendance right now, and you can bet the top of attendance has not even been reached with marketing on the beaches requiring a couple years for returning vacationers to get a taste of this great ballpark.




Why then is it you refuse to attend any Wahoo games?

Sponsored content



Back to top  Message [Page 2 of 8]

Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

Pensacola Discussion Forum » General Discussion » Maritime Park YMCA Officially "Dead"

Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum