Women in the military are filing lawsuits for equal opportunity to be in combat

I was listening to the radio today and heard four women in the military, most were decorated in war zones, and having purple hearts have filed a lawsuit asking the courts to overturn the current classifications by our military which restricts women in combat.

I have mixed feelings on this because I believe that government has the right to make rational basis classifications, and the courts should not be too active in second guessing government.......but how is a classification system where woman cannot be front line combat troops, yet they are daily exposed to dangerous road systems in support of combat, and are restricted from over 250 opportunities for advancement which only combat experience will allow(I do not have a link, but simply heard this being discussed on the radio this afternoon)?

My daughter went to a school with about 200 in her class. About half men and women. She could run faster than all but 10 boys in her class. She could high jump higher than all but 10 boys in her class. She could beat one on one in basketball all but 10 boys in her class. She could out weight lift more than half the boys in her class.......yet if her class went to join the military she would get through basic along with many men who could not perform at her level.......but when it came time for combat.....she would be denied, just like blacks were denied in earlier times because of something she could no more change than the color of her skin.

I think the restriction is too broad. I think however, we need to look at specific combat assignments and have a more specific restrictions by classification rather than a blanket denial of opportunity. I am still very uneasy with the courts being involved in this process, and hope that the joint chiefs can begin to evolve a policy which can stand up to constitutional challenge, but also allow rationally based classifications like how much weight a combat troop must bear, and then allow any person of any sex, race, and religion attempt to meet those rationally based classifications.

I think Chihuahuas should be allowed to run at the dog track

I think Chihuahuas should be allowed to run at the dog track

Yep....cannot deny your logic......but was not that same logic applied to the diminutive Japanese at the start of WWII, and especially the Phillipines. Did we not make some of the same arguments about the size of the Koreans and Chinese in the Korean War.....and did not these folks who could not jump, run, or lift what the average American could prove to be a ferocious enemy and good combat soldier.

You tell me......was a five foot Viet Cong 18 year old who weighed 110 pounds ineffective because an American was physically more capable? Exactly what does that dog track look like.....is it 100 yards.....is it 3 mile......26 miles.......does it go vertical......or does it have obstacles which require cognitive skills.......if it was only a simple answer I could buy into the Chihuahuas.......but my personal belief is having never served my country in the military, I have no male ego involved in the discussion and I may be more inclined to think women could do some things as well as men, and suspect that coming to that conclusion may have many men who hang their macho on service......not too happy with the discussion. I got no dog in this hunt.....but there were some very persuasive arguments being made on radio today, and I would like to hear from people who served.

lol... ability doesn't change except through work and potential. You should see my daughter.

women have been given the same abilities as men by mechanical and weapon advances. When it comes to hand to hand they lack where it counts. Sure you will have the exceptions but they are not the rule.
Yes a small Vietnamese man using speed and getting in close could kill a giant American ...the Vietnamese had a saying...get them by the belt....


Jessica Lynch final answer.....

My daughter can long jump 20'... no way she's going to war tho.

My daughter can long jump 20'... no way she's going to war tho.

That sounds like my daughter....she had 11 varsity letters in high school, and was a two sport Division 1 athlete and captain of the track team. When she was a big fish in a small pond in high school, I saw 10 of the 12 volleyball players make her look like she barely could play the game, and like your daughter....no way she was going to war....I told the story about her stepping on the rabbit which the dog delivered to the door........but is an across the board denial of opportunity the right way to do this.....can we get more specific, and yes......as good as my daughters physical abilities were.....she would never have the requisite mental toughness for combat......and is this mental toughness gender specific......I think it generally is, but I have dealt with some exceptional young women in Law enforcement and fire....who quite frankly are the best of the best in both physical and metal capabilities.....is a blanket denial of opportunity necessary.

2seaoat wrote:My daughter can long jump 20'... no way she's going to war tho.

That sounds like my daughter....she had 11 varsity letters in high school, and was a two sport Division 1 athlete and captain of the track team. When she was a big fish in a small pond in high school, I saw 10 of the 12 volleyball players make her look like she barely could play the game, and like your daughter....no way she was going to war....I told the story about her stepping on the rabbit which the dog delivered to the door........but is an across the board denial of opportunity the right way to do this.....can we get more specific, and yes......as good as my daughters physical abilities were.....she would never have the requisite mental toughness for combat......and is this mental toughness gender specific......I think it generally is, but I have dealt with some exceptional young women in Law enforcement and fire....who quite frankly are the best of the best in both physical and metal capabilities.....is a blanket denial of opportunity necessary.

I hear ya... and I admit some bias as I discouraged her against military service. She is pre-law now and competing at a DI school. She's very strong willed tho... and that's ok. I feel old worrying.

2seaoat wrote:I was listening to the radio today and heard four women in the military, most were decorated in war zones, and having purple hearts have filed a lawsuit asking the courts to overturn the current classifications by our military which restricts women in combat.

I have mixed feelings on this because I believe that government has the right to make rational basis classifications, and the courts should not be too active in second guessing government.......but how is a classification system where woman cannot be front line combat troops, yet they are daily exposed to dangerous road systems in support of combat, and are restricted from over 250 opportunities for advancement which only combat experience will allow(I do not have a link, but simply heard this being discussed on the radio this afternoon)?

My daughter went to a school with about 200 in her class. About half men and women. She could run faster than all but 10 boys in her class. She could high jump higher than all but 10 boys in her class. She could beat one on one in basketball all but 10 boys in her class. She could out weight lift more than half the boys in her class.......yet if her class went to join the military she would get through basic along with many men who could not perform at her level.......but when it came time for combat.....she would be denied, just like blacks were denied in earlier times because of something she could no more change than the color of her skin.

I think the restriction is too broad. I think however, we need to look at specific combat assignments and have a more specific restrictions by classification rather than a blanket denial of opportunity. I am still very uneasy with the courts being involved in this process, and hope that the joint chiefs can begin to evolve a policy which can stand up to constitutional challenge, but also allow rationally based classifications like how much weight a combat troop must bear, and then allow any person of any sex, race, and religion attempt to meet those rationally based classifications.

Another frivilous lawsuit that has no merit. The Marines have already proven that women cannot make in through the training to be an infantry officer. Hell, 40% of the men drop out and the two women who attempted it this Fall failed miserably. The only thing that will make women enter these jobs is to lower the standards so that they can pass. Lowering the standards asks for a sure defeat in a future military conflict. If you don't PACK the GEAR to make the grade, don't whine and cry until someone has to make special considerations. Hell, I wanted to punch holes in the sky and fly F-14s back in the day, but my vision CANKED that. Standards are in place for a reason.

I agree that standards should not be compromised where there is a rational basis. However, I am ignorant on how someone commands a tank. Does it make sense to have somebody going through an obstacle course, when cognitive, reflex, vision, hearing, and intelligence is more important than how much a person carries. So If a woman, using objective standards for a tank commander, clearly outscores a male on objective standards, do we go back to basic, and take superior candidates and disqualify them because of a standard for being a boot on the ground in the marines? Not trying to be say that women belong in a tank, but if certain abilities allow better performance with technology.....why would we not be working to get the very best people in position to improve our overall performance.

Let me give you a football analogy. What if nobody could get on a football team unless they could bench press 450 lbs.....but Peyton Manning could only bench 300.........would strength alone be the standards which allowed a football team to be their best. I get it......a lineman benching only one hundred pounds is going to be a weak link in the team concept......but when the person who benched 450 is asked to run a fly pattern......and they are really slow.....is this one size fits all standard best for a modern fighting force.....I do not know.....my questions are sincere.

I take it you have never rode or worked around around Military tracked vehicles. There is much more to being on a tank or track crew than just riding around. They can be hot, dusty, and pitch like a boat in a hurricane. Hell of a job. I was stationed at fort Hood where the 1st and 2nd armour division call home. I guess there are women who could it but I would wager not a whole lot of them could. Maybe the exception rather than the rule. They dont have AAA when they throw a track off in the mud and rain.


Mos 19k
The Armor Crewman works as part of a team to operate armored equipment and fire weapons to destroy enemy positions. During combat, their role is to operate tanks and amphibious assault vehicles to engage and destroy the enemy. Tanks like the M1A2 Abrams use mobility, firepower and shock effect to close with and extinguish enemy forces.

Duties performed by Soldiers in this MOS include:

Assists in target detection and identification. Places turret in operation. Determines range to target. Prepares range and sketch cards. Operates main gun controls and firing controls. Adjusts fires. Boresights, screen and zeros main gun. Fires main gun. Loads, fires, clears and applies immediate action on machine guns. Operates tracked and wheeled vehicles over varied terrain and roadways in combat formation and armor marches. Uses and responds to oral commands and visual signals. Maintains orientation in moving vehicle by comparing terrain with maps. Selects tank routes. Positions vehicle in firing position. Secures battle position. Secures, prepares, and stows ammunition aboard tank. Loads, unloads, clears and performs misfire procedures on main gun. Exercises safety precautions in ammunition handling. Refuels vehicles. Prepares radio equipment for operation and enters net. Operates internal communications equipment. Performs operator maintenance on turret, weapons, controls, and communications equipment. Assists in performance of unit maintenance of turret components. Performs preventative maintenance checks and services on tank chassis and automotive components before, during, and after use. Prepares DA Form 2404 and maintains vehicle equipment folder. Assists in performance of recovery operations. Prepares tank for operations under various weather conditions and for night vision operations. Assists in construction of fortification and barriers, including minefields. Breaches and clears minefields and obstacles.

Performs duties shown in preceding level of skill and supervises subordinate personnel in performance of these duties. Assists tank commander in training tank crew. Prepares, files, and distributes operations maps, situation maps, and overlays. Reads and interprets maps and aerial photographs. Records information on maps and overlays. Indicates location, strength, tactical deployment, and emplacement of friendly and enemy units. Marks vehicle routes on maps and overlays. Reproduces, distributes, and files operations orders and plans. Inspects tank turret and automotive components for malfunctions. Assists in the performance of unit maintenance of automotive components. Assists in maintaining the gunnery proficiency of subordinate gunners and loaders. Supervises ammunition resupply operations to include request, receipt, storage, inspection, and issue of ammunition with armor units.

I work on track machines all the time......my wife and I work as a team. In 2008 when they took out the lung, my strength was significantly down, and I had to have my wife assist me on a bobcat 190 removing the tracks, replacing bearing, idlers, and the entire drive train on the system. We use leverage, where in my youth I could just manhandle most things. We have to start with releasing the grease from the piston which regulates to tension on the tracks. You next can try to manhandle the track off and over the bearings, but why fight when you can use your brain. I use hydraulic jacks and thick rope to simple relieve the tension, and then I use my lull forklift to slip the old track off, replace bearings and idlers as needed, pick up the new 250-300 lb track which I triangulate with rope....slip it over without using a bit of my strength....pull it taught with the lull, and bammmmmm. regrease the piston and we are up and going. My wife could change the track without me after I taught her how to leverage, and use our brains instead of brawn I no longer possess. I think women can do many jobs.....I used the tank as an example......I just saw redtails on HBO where black pilots were not allowed in combat......I think this makes no sense.

This is the 21st century and women should be required to fill any position a male would do for a job.

Just as women should be required to sign up for selective service and have to serve if called upon by the government when they come of age.

Equal rights and all of that don't you know.

*****SMILE*****

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tna0Mmu1XlI

Well, I will just say that I don't think women should be in combat areas. And it has a lot more to do with than just strength or stamina issues.

With equal rights comes equal responsibility.

*****SMILE****

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tna0Mmu1XlI



"No man was ever endowed with a right without being at the same time saddled with a responsibility."
Gerald W. Johnson

I agree completely. But I don't think women have equal rights to be in combat. Actually I don't think anyone has a "right" to be in the military at all. The military does and should discriminate.

Never said that being in the military or in combat was a right. I stated that it's a responsibility.

Just ask the women in countires like; Israel, Switzerland, Sweden, and Norway, about their responsibility as citizens.

With equal rights comes equal responsibility and no one ever promised that those responsibilities would be sugar and spice and everything nice.

*****SMILE*****

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tna0Mmu1XlI

Well, you mentioned equal RIGHTS.

In the case of mandatory service being required for both men and women, I still don't think women belong in combat.

Then neither do men.

See... We've brought peace on earth and...

*****CHUCKLE*****

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMsZGwf6o_w



...in just a few short posts.

I'd just as soon keep men out of combat too.

But the problem is--men and women can not be treated the same. Women get pregnant. Men don't. There cannot be pregnant women serving in a combat zone. There is no way to treat women the same as men. And to attempt to treat women in combat the same as men in combat is going to be more unfair and unequal to men than to women.

Then they can take a leave of absense and fulfill their total obligation upon their return.

OR

They sign a contract with the military that states they are required not to be pregnant during their time in service/duty station or recieve a reprimand. This is common practice for women in preforming some duties in the military.

*****SMILE*****

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5X_Dd_6Czk

TEOTWAWKI wrote:women have been given the same abilities as men by mechanical and weapon advances. When it comes to hand to hand they lack where it counts. Sure you will have the exceptions but they are not the rule.
Yes a small Vietnamese man using speed and getting in close could kill a giant American ...the Vietnamese had a saying...get them by the belt....


Jessica Lynch final answer.....

...or having to carry that 100+ pound ruck sack many miles up and down hills...female bodies are not made for that...the bone and muscle structure will not support it.

For thousands of years men have done most if not all the frontline fighting in wars. Look what it got us!

I say "let the ladies do all the fighting for the next thousand years!"