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Pensacola Discussion Forum » General Discussion » Blues Cancelling Many Shows Due to Crash

Blues Cancelling Many Shows Due to Crash

+5
no stress
knothead
2seaoat
RealLindaL
ZVUGKTUBM
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ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/2016/06/07/blue-angels-cancel-more-shows-following-fatal-crash/85567580/

They have already cancelled several shows scheduled for June.

My bet is that the July Pensacola Beach Show will either be cancelled or it will be a limited appearance.

I wonder how long the PNJ will hold-off in publishing articles about this possibility?

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RealLindaL



I dearly hope you're wrong about the beach air show.

I keep hoping to read that a former Blue Angel has stepped forward to fill in.   Isn't that what happened when we lost a pilot back in 2007?  I can't recall for sure, but I know the July show did go on, including the missing man formation.

This evening's flyby of the Blues' C130 "Fat Albert," bringing back the body of Jeff Kuss and accompanied by one solo F/A-18 Blues jet as an escort, was a very emotional moment for many of us.

2seaoat



I guess I am the bad guy. I never got air shows and think it is a tremendous waste of resources. Every couple years folks die, and every year millions and millions of dollars are flushed down the toilet while a vet has to wait for treatment at certain va hospitals because of lack of staffing. It is time to put government sponsored air shows to bed.

knothead

knothead

RealLindaL wrote:I dearly hope you're wrong about the beach air show.

I keep hoping to read that a former Blue Angel has stepped forward to fill in.   Isn't that what happened when we lost a pilot back in 2007?  I can't recall for sure, but I know the July show did go on, including the missing man formation.

This evening's flyby of the Blues' C130 "Fat Albert," bringing back the body of Jeff Kuss and accompanied by one solo F/A-18 Blues jet as an escort, was a very emotional moment for many of us.


They have two or three options, one of which will be decided by the team, will be to cancel shows, reach out to recent former members capable of assimilating or lastly fly the remaining schedule absent the opposing member.  We have seen the team perform with missing members resulting in a three ship diamond for example but in this case the Lead Solo would perform his routine but without the opposing aircraft . . . . this is the most likely scenario in my opinion.  As to the memorial fly by, it was very emotional but necessary to pay tribute and allow the community to mourn this team's loss.  Chicago has the Cubbies and the Bulls, Boston has the Red Sox and the Celtics . . . . . Pensacola has Pensacola Beach and the United States Naval Flight Demonstration Team known around the world as the Blue Angels . . . to the family of Captain Kuss the community mourns your profound tragic loss. RIP

2seaoat



I certainly do not want more crashes and loss of life. However, I have a completely different perspective on those air shows. I see those planes as delivery systems of war, and the shows as marketing incremental militarization of America. I love civilian air shows where historical planes and biplanes fill the sky. I just cringe when I see children being indoctrinated to the excitement over delivery systems of death. I have shared my opinion with many, and I realize that it definitely is a minority opinion, as some argue that these show are innocent and have nothing to do with war or militarization of American society......I respond we are eyeball deep in militarization and foreign adventure that it is time to put these shows to bed. When I watch local tv in Pensacola, it is story after story about the military.........our founding fathers knew that liberty was always challenged by standing armies and they were against the same, and taking the machinery of war and aggrandizing the same is simply beyond the obvious cost and risk of life wrong.

2seaoat



When I see military hardware being shown and displayed, I cannot help the years of the Soviet leadership and the streets lined in Moscow showing off weapons as if this is something we should celebrate or be in awe. War is awful and when we neutralize the horror of these weapons and what they are intended to do, we are numbing American children to the militarization of our police and the growing standing army in America. It is time for these displays of military planes to come to an end. It is time for America to recognize the horror of a civilian population in other nations, as one of our planes drop bombs or fire missiles. To defend this country is the duty of Congress, but to subsidize and aggrandize the MIC and export war......our founding fathers are rolling in their graves. Some biplanes and historical planes flying over the beach might not be as exciting, but demilitarization of a society starts with symbols.

no stress

no stress

2seaoat wrote:I certainly do not want more crashes and loss of life.  However, I have a completely different perspective on those air shows.   I see those planes as delivery systems of war, and the shows as marketing incremental militarization of America.  I love civilian air shows where historical planes and biplanes fill the sky.   I just cringe when I see children being indoctrinated to the excitement over delivery systems of death.   I have shared my opinion with many, and I realize that it definitely is a minority opinion, as some argue that these show are innocent and have nothing to do with war or militarization of American society......I respond we are eyeball deep in militarization and foreign adventure that it is time to put these shows to bed.   When I watch local tv in Pensacola, it is story after story about the military.........our founding fathers knew that liberty was always challenged by standing armies and they were against the same, and taking the machinery of war and aggrandizing the same is simply beyond the obvious cost and risk of life wrong.
You would do well in San Francisco. They feel exactly as you do and are trying to ban the blue angels from their fine city.

2seaoat



I think most thinking Americans have had quite enough with militarism and the avoidance of the warnings of Ike and our founding fathers. There was a reason we had a revolution to free us from the same. We have poured blood and treasure enriching a few and taking this once wealthy nation down the crapper. It is not by accident that Germany and Japan have watched their economies blossom without the drain of military expenditure.

What is necessary to defend this nation......not creating a war machine to export war and generate profits for MIC. A few biplanes and historical planes and get your bread and circus........but blood and guts of gladiators......sorry I do not get a tingle down my spine watching a parade of ICBMs in red square or military planes which are instruments of war in formation. It is the bigger issue, and America is tired of subsidizing those on the government teat of military dependence and aggrandizement.

Sal

Sal

Have to say, I agree 100% with your take on this, Oats.

The constant glorification of the military is wasteful and unhealthy.

It's sickening.

http://deadspin.com/these-teams-earned-the-most-from-the-militarys-paid-pa-1740567338

ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

2seaoat wrote:I guess I am the bad guy.  I never got air shows and think it is a tremendous waste of resources.  Every couple years folks die, and every year millions and millions of dollars are flushed down the toilet while a vet has to wait for treatment at certain va hospitals because of lack of staffing.   It is time to put government sponsored air shows to bed.

When I was stationed here in the early 80s, I would volunteer to fly a TH-57 over to NAS Cecil to be a part of the static display lineup during their Blues weekend. We always got treated very nicely at these air shows. I have seen the Blues so many times that I don't need to see it any more.

In 1985, a couple of months after the wife and I married, we were in a traffic line going through a side gate at MCAS El Toro in southern CA for their Blues airshow, and I saw a big pall of smoke rising up from the center of the airfield. When we got to the gate, I asked a Marine who was waving traffic through where the smoke was from, and he told me that an airplane had crashed into the chapel, which was in flames. My wife and I had been married in that chapel two months before. We drove over to that location and watched firemen dousing the last flames--the building burned to the ground after a WWII era T-6 Texan took off and went straight into the chapel.

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2seaoat



Great story. Airshows are inherently dangerous and the big one in Oshkosh Wisconsin has a history of accidents. I get that risk. I do not get taxpayers subsidizing showing off weapons. I wonder what a child thinks when they see a military plane in the sky in Syria or Afghanastan? Is it a perspective that children watching these expensive shows in the safety of America would not understand. I love the precision of war, where we have tried to limit the collateral damage, but war is hell and the instruments of war in some kind of dance in a show does not need to happen among free people who want liberty and freedom, as opposed to the tyranny of MIC and the special interests which terrorize the world from the sky invading countries like Iraq where hundreds of thousands of civilians have lost their lives because of the ease of our militarized society to launch yet another adventure. Stop the military air shows.......let the blue angels be a fond memory of a time when America exported war, and let our children and grandchildren grow up with no fantasy about what those planes are......and what they represent. I have never had a problem with an unpopular opinion.

RealLindaL



The Blue Angels are above all an invaluable recruitment tool, and the hard fact is that if we have no recruits we have no Naval aviators short of a draft.   One can wish there were no war in the world, but there is, and we need a strong military presence to deter aggression on our own shores, if nowhere else.  

I, too, am not uncomfortable holding an unpopular opinion, which obviously mine is at least among many of the current posters on this thread.  So be it.  I consider the roar of the Angels' jets the sound of freedom and am not likely to ever be convinced otherwise.  

2seaoat



Do not want to convince you not to enjoy your show. I would suggest by the number of recruits who enter and are thinned out who want to be pilots, that if the Blue Angels never flew again, the list would not be any shorter. We have over the years had pilots as renters, and I can assure you that the idea of justification of the Blue Angels for recruitment is a fantasy......there has and will be more applicants than available spots as these young men and women understand the post military opportunity for pilots. We do not need as many recruits as we downsize, and eliminate the old technology of manned fighters.......in fifteen years there is a real question that the air force is not even planning the next series of manned fighters after 2030.....changing technology, and if my grandchildren come to the beach with their children to watch drones in formation.....my objection remains.....but enjoy the show.

2seaoat



The Air Force projects that the airline industry will hire about 20,000 pilots over the next 10 years, and with changing requirements, the companies will target military aviators at an increased rate, Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Mark Welsh told the Senate Armed Services Committee on Wednesday.

The truth is that there will be a shortage of pilots in the Air Force as cutbacks have impacted training, and the airlines are raiding the pool of pilots. The problem is the pool for pilots is the top 10% of recruits, and many folks are training directly and going for those 20k pilot jobs in the private sector as the drop in fuel prices has created a mini boom in the airline industry.

The Air Force uses big bonuses to try to keep its pilots around. The service offers Aviator Retention Pay payouts for eligible pilots who agree to serve for nine more years, at a rate of up to $225,000. Fighter pilots, other valuable pilots and combat systems officers who sign up for five more years can also get a $125,000 bonus.

A young person who is a top 10% recruit is not going to be making the decision based on an air show, but as my friend's son who became an air traffic controller in the air force, they are looking at careers and the market. Right now it appears that the services are trying to retain those trained pilots, and the money wasted on these air shows could better be spent on keeping our trained pilots.

ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

WATCH: Video Shows Tragic Crash of Blue Angels Jet in Tennessee

http://www.dodbuzz.com/2016/06/08/watch-video-shows-crash-of-blue-angels-jet-in-tennessee/?ESRC=dod-bz.nl?ESRC=dod-bz.nl

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knothead

knothead

ZVUGKTUBM wrote:WATCH: Video Shows Tragic Crash of Blue Angels Jet in Tennessee

http://www.dodbuzz.com/2016/06/08/watch-video-shows-crash-of-blue-angels-jet-in-tennessee/?ESRC=dod-bz.nl?ESRC=dod-bz.nl

First, thanks to you Z for posting . . . . something dramatic/catastrophic obviously happened but what I saw is not consistent with the normal sequence for #6 . . . . . he normally keeps smoke on until he gets to around 7000-8000 ft depending on ceiling then smoke off and joins up with the lead solo for the first maneuver, what this shows is him coming almost straight down . . . . something horrible happened . . . power failure? I am curious as to what the investigation will reveal but it won't bring him back . . . .

RealLindaL



2seaoat wrote:A young person who is a top 10% recruit is not going to be making the decision based on an air show, but as my friend's son who became an air traffic controller in the air force, they are looking at careers and the market.  Right now it appears that the services are trying to retain those trained pilots, and the money wasted on these air shows could better be spent on keeping our trained pilots.

So you say.  Look, I'm talking about dreams that are born in the very young -- possibly your own grandchildren -- when they see these shows.   Later on in life, yes, those dreams turn into more practical career considerations, but youthful dreams and goals can make a huge difference in the trajectory of a person's life.  All I can say in conclusion  -- and I am definitely done on this subject -- is that, with all your constant barrage of supposed facts and figures and everything you purport to know about every single subject on the face of this Earth, there are certain soaring intangibles in this life that transcend even a Seaoat's attempt to bring them down to simple, cold logic.  So yes, I'll continue to enjoy the shows for as long as I'm able, thank you very much, and I'll continue to applaud and honor the young people who have the skill, dedication and perseverance to become one of our community's (and nation's) beloved Blue Angels



Last edited by RealLindaL on 6/9/2016, 5:18 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Typo)

2seaoat



As I said, it is not for me to judge your choice to watch and enjoy military delivery systems doing precision flying. I would NEVER take my grandchildren to a blue angels show, but I would every year have a friend use my beach condo for the Blue Angels where he brought his children to enjoy the bread and circus. The demilitarization of America is important to me, and when we are unable to retain the folks we have trained, and in the air force there is an actual shortage as the retention bonus is not stopping the bleeding as the lure of private pilots is depleting our pilots, one would think flushing 112 million a year on the Blue Angels might be better spent on retaining trained pilots than providing bread and circus using military weapons to brainwash children that they could grow up to use weapons of death...........and therefore join the military. It is time for America to wake up and return to our founding fathers and Ike's concern of the MIC. To be able to retain 500 more trained pilots with the blue angel budget to me is better spent money than bread and circus.......and yes to engage one's brain does give the perception of being an expert on everything.

RealLindaL



2seaoat wrote:and yes to engage one's brain does give the perception of being an expert on everything.

The perception of being a total jerk is what you're giving here.  I'll match intelligence and 'brain engagement' with you any time, Mr. Oat.

RealLindaL



2seaoat wrote:I would NEVER take my grandchildren to a blue angels show, but I would every year have a friend use my beach condo for the Blue Angels where he brought his children to enjoy the bread and circus.

Oh WELL then, you are covered six ways from Sunday, aren't you? Good grief.

2seaoat



A jerk because you seem to distance yourself from the purpose of this military equipment and sit on a beach chair waving a flag while our jets are bombing children and hospitals because a militarized society did not stand up and debate war and the consequences of the same. I would say I am being kind. We have killed 100k innocent civilians in the Iraq war and many innocents have died from war being waged from the sky. You want to celebrate a tradition of war. I want to distance myself from the militarization of American society where people actually cannot see that spending 110 million dollars on the glorification of instruments of war is wrong. Orwellian doublespeak Linda, and if you insist on acting like this is an innocent bread and circus event, I strongly disagree.....there is nothing innocent about war, and there is nothing innocent about pouring over a hundred million down the rabbit hole when Americans are suffering as the MIC makes another trillion on the next generation of fighters......you either are part of the solution or you are part of the problem, and cheering for the blue angels on Pensacola Beach is part of the problem in America today.

RealLindaL



2seaoat wrote:A jerk because you seem to distance yourself from the purpose of this military equipment and sit on a beach chair waving a flag while our jets are bombing children and hospitals because a militarized society did not stand up and debate war and the consequences of the same.   I would say I am being kind.   We have killed 100k innocent civilians in the Iraq war and many innocents have died from war being waged from the sky.  You want to celebrate a tradition of war.  I want to distance myself from the militarization of American society where people actually cannot see that spending 110 million dollars on the glorification of instruments of war is wrong.   Orwellian doublespeak Linda, and if you insist on acting like this is an innocent bread and circus event, I strongly disagree.....there is nothing innocent about war, and there is nothing innocent about pouring over a hundred million down the rabbit hole when Americans are suffering as the MIC makes another trillion on the next generation of fighters......you either are part of the solution or you are part of the problem, and cheering for the blue angels on Pensacola Beach is part of the problem in America today.

No, a jerk because you clearly imply that your brain is engaged and mine is not, simply because I disagree with you.   That is arrogant hubris to the nth degree, and SO very typical.  

OK, maybe I should say your brain is not engaged because you may as well be campaigning to shut down the military entirely and leave our shores vulnerable to foreign invasion.   YES YOU MAY AS WELL BE, because that's EXACTLY what you're saying when you condemn a demonstration of our fighter strength and skill.  Listen, I am not a fan of military aggression and never have been, but I will defend to my dying day this country's right, no, its ABSOLUTE NEED, to maintain a strong military, if for no other reason than to deter foreign incursion on our own shores and those of our allies.   I'm afraid that anyone who believes we can shut it all down, just stay neutral, sing Kumbaya and avoid all conflict,  has one's head in the sand, and that location is putting it as nicely as I can.

2seaoat



Yes, Linda........without the Blue Angels Iran will be landing on Pensacola Beach. The Blue Angels have nothing to do with building a strong military defense. It has everything with Orwellian brainwashing the population as to what Ike clearly warned us.....the MIC. If you truly believed in a strong military, you would not be wasting 110 million on wasteful air shows. We could cut our military budget in half and the world would be safer, we would be safer, and maybe all children could learn the horror of war and not watch military parades in North Korea and Moscow show casing death and war.......but please keep using that gray matter supporting our military spending of 110 million dollars to entertain you on the beach......it makes me a jerk, and it is a showcase of logic.

Sal

Sal

Oat's is correct, even if verbose and sanctimonious, Linda.

This militarism runs absolutely counter to what the founders intended and is precisely the threat of which Eisenhower warned us.

2seaoat



I know....everybody hates it when I am right.....please go to the politics threads where I once again called how easy it would be to fake attacks on Trump people to play the same on Fox......bingo......, but if anybody thinks children watching delivery systems of death are cool because they can blow smoke and fly in unison......then give a gun to a child and argue when the Iranians invade PB, that child will be prepared......it actually is about gray matter, and thinking about what is important in America.....so if some folks want to sit on the beach and watch military hardware wasting millions of dollars of taxpayer money and think we are safer......who am I to interfere with their beach party......my only objection is what these shows do to America........so I guess I am lacking in gray matter because sitting on the beach watching war machines while sipping on a drink sure is easier than letting people know that I will not attend.....what is wrong with you Seaoat.....you belong in San Francisco.......what a jerk.......ask my neighbor who spent almost two years in a VA hospital how great it was and all the money spent on his wounds and comfort while there(not)....but the air shows....bring us some more raw meat, as we sell the next generation of trillion dollar fighter jets to fight exactly who?

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