I am greatly disappointed that the Grand Jury decision to not indict was released at night

Bob wrote:I have heard no claim by anyone that this prosecutor cherry picked the testimony and physical evidence he presented to the Grand Jury.
Quite the contrary,  it appears he presented literally everything available to him.  

Floridatexan wrote:http://www.vox.com/2014/11/25/7281165/darren-wilsons-story-side/in/7041840

Officer Darren Wilson's story is unbelievable. Literally.

http://www.vox.com/2014/11/24/7175967/darren-wilson-charges-michael-brown-ferguson

Why Darren Wilson wasn't charged for killing Michael Brown

If only four of the grand jurors agreed that there wasn't enough evidence to indict, there would be no indictment.

Police have wide latitude when deciding whether a threat of force exists...it's up to the discretion of the officer.

"...McCulloch, the St. Louis County prosecutor, had a lot of discretion when it came to how to handle this case, and he used it in ways that experts said could have made an indictment less likely.


Instead of telling the grand jury what charges Wilson should face and letting the jurors hear from a detective or a couple of main witnesses, McCulloch chose to present them with every single piece of available evidence and hear every single witness — "every scrap of evidence," as he put it — and let them decide for themselves.

Alex Little, a former federal prosecutor who spent six years trying violent crimes, including homicides, told Vox's Amanda Taub in August that the strategy raised concerns about McCulloch's commitment to seeking justice in the case:

So when a District Attorney says, in effect, "we'll present the evidence and let the grand jury decide," that's malarkey. If he takes that approach, then he's already decided to abdicate his role in the process as an advocate for justice. At that point, there's no longer a prosecutor in the room guiding the grand jurors, and — more importantly — no state official acting on behalf of the victim, Michael Brown...


Then, when you add to the mix that minorities are notoriously underrepresented on grand juries, you have the potential for nullification — of a grand jury declining to bring charges even when there is sufficient probable cause. That's the real danger to this approach.

Kevin Curran, president of the Missouri Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, told Vox that the choice to use this tactic instead of presenting "an advocate's case" — which McCulloch could have done by arguing for one ore more specific charges against Wilson using a few key witness statements — made an indictment much less likely..."

"...And the sheer volume of evidence they heard made it more likely that they'd be left to grapple with the type of conflicting statements that could lead them to conclude that there was not probable cause that a crime had occurred, Curran said.

In an interview Vox's Amanda Taub conducted with David Rudovsky, an expert in police prosecutions, he explained that various stages of the criminal justice process — from being investigated by police peers, to being prosecuted by attorneys who work closely with police, to natural jury bias toward law enforcement — makes it rather rare for cops to go to jail for misconduct on the job. This plays out not just in Ferguson, but across the nation.

**********

(read the rest at site)

Bob wrote:

Floridatexan wrote:http://www.vox.com/2014/11/25/7281165/darren-wilsons-story-side/in/7041840

Officer Darren Wilson's story is unbelievable. Literally.

http://www.vox.com/2014/11/24/7175967/darren-wilson-charges-michael-brown-ferguson

Why Darren Wilson wasn't charged for killing Michael Brown

If only four of the grand jurors agreed that there wasn't enough evidence to indict, there would be no indictment.

True that it's absolutely. Ludicrous as If the truth doesnt matter

Police have wide latitude when deciding whether a threat of force exists...it's up to the discretion of the officer.

"...McCulloch, the St. Louis County prosecutor, had a lot of discretion when it came to how to handle this case, and he used it in ways that experts said could have made an indictment less likely.


Instead of telling the grand jury what charges Wilson should face and letting the jurors hear from a detective or a couple of main witnesses, McCulloch chose to present them with every single piece of available evidence and hear every single witness — "every scrap of evidence," as he put it — and let them decide for themselves.

Alex Little, a former federal prosecutor who spent six years trying violent crimes, including homicides, told Vox's Amanda Taub in August that the strategy raised concerns about McCulloch's commitment to seeking justice in the case:

So when a District Attorney says, in effect, "we'll present the evidence and let the grand jury decide," that's malarkey. If he takes that approach, then he's already decided to abdicate his role in the process as an advocate for justice. At that point, there's no longer a prosecutor in the room guiding the grand jurors, and — more importantly — no state official acting on behalf of the victim, Michael Brown...


Then, when you add to the mix that minorities are notoriously underrepresented on grand juries, you have the potential for nullification — of a grand jury declining to bring charges even when there is sufficient probable cause. That's the real danger to this approach.

Kevin Curran, president of the Missouri Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, told Vox that the choice to use this tactic instead of presenting "an advocate's case" — which McCulloch could have done by arguing for one ore more specific charges against Wilson using a few key witness statements — made an indictment much less likely..."

"...And the sheer volume of evidence they heard made it more likely that they'd be left to grapple with the type of conflicting statements that could lead them to conclude that there was not probable cause that a crime had occurred, Curran said.

In an interview Vox's Amanda Taub conducted with David Rudovsky, an expert in police prosecutions, he explained that various stages of the criminal justice process — from being investigated by police peers, to being prosecuted by attorneys who work closely with police, to natural jury bias toward law enforcement — makes it rather rare for cops to go to jail for misconduct on the job. This plays out not just in Ferguson, but across the nation.

**********

(read the rest at site)

All we've ever heard about Grand Juries is that they will do anything a prosecutor wishes them to do which makes them an unnecessary exercise in rubber stamping whatever the prosecutor wants the outcome to be.

And now,  when a prosecutor presents ALL the potential testimony and evidence and actually lets a panel of citizens be the judge,  we're told the prosecutor SHOULD HAVE instead made the Grand Jurors be his rubber stamp.

This is all so surreal.  lol

boards of FL wrote:Does anyone know which witnesses stated that Brown charged?  I've read through about 8 different witnesses on the NPR documents and so far have only found one that said he charged.  Everyone else (that I have seen so far at least.  I have only read through about 8 witness statements) says the same thing we have heard since day one, which is:

 1:  Struggle at the car with Brown leaning inside.

 2:  A shot is fired which causes brown to run.

 3:  Wilson exits the car, pursues, and begins shooting.

 4:  Brown appears to be hit.  Some say he turns with both hands up.  Some say he turns and has one hand up and is sort of doubled over.  Others say he turns and is doubled over or "curled up".

 5:  Several more shots are then fired and that is the end of it.

2seaoat wrote:And now, when a prosecutor presents ALL the potential testimony and evidence and actually lets a panel of citizens be the judge, we're told the prosecutor SHOULD HAVE instead made the Grand Jurors be his rubber stamp.

This is all so surreal. lol


Bob,

Let us talk about your expertise.   Say you came to a storage unit and this fellow had a rare juke box sitting in the corner under a sheet.   You saw it and said you might be interested.  The fellow said that is what Uncle Charlie left me and I am cleaning out the storage unit and would like to sell it.   You look at it knowing that it is probably worth 10k, but you offer him $500 and he excitedly takes the $500.   However, you could have said hold it, I will be back in 15 minutes and will get ALL the information about that Juke box.   You print 10 pages from the internet showing retail sales at NY auction houses, and give him articles about how special this jukebox is and after handing him the data you tell him that he could 15k retail, but that you will offer him $500.......he decides not to indict and does not sell.   Are you comprehending what the role of a SA is in front of a grand jury?

Bob wrote:All we've ever heard about Grand Juries is that they will do anything a prosecutor wishes them to do which makes them an unnecessary exercise in rubber stamping whatever the prosecutor wants the outcome to be.

And now,  when a prosecutor presents ALL the potential testimony and evidence and actually lets a panel of citizens be the judge,  we're told the prosecutor SHOULD HAVE instead made the Grand Jurors be his rubber stamp.

The Dude wrote:

boards of FL wrote:Does anyone know which witnesses stated that Brown charged?  I've read through about 8 different witnesses on the NPR documents and so far have only found one that said he charged.  Everyone else (that I have seen so far at least.  I have only read through about 8 witness statements) says the same thing we have heard since day one, which is:

 1:  Struggle at the car with Brown leaning inside.

 2:  A shot is fired which causes brown to run.

 3:  Wilson exits the car, pursues, and begins shooting.

 4:  Brown appears to be hit.  Some say he turns with both hands up.  Some say he turns and has one hand up and is sort of doubled over.  Others say he turns and is doubled over or "curled up".

 5:  Several more shots are then fired and that is the end of it.

Without reading again I know witnesses testified they heard the officer order extremely loudly stop, stop, stop.......

boards of FL wrote:

The Dude wrote:

boards of FL wrote:Does anyone know which witnesses stated that Brown charged?  I've read through about 8 different witnesses on the NPR documents and so far have only found one that said he charged.  Everyone else (that I have seen so far at least.  I have only read through about 8 witness statements) says the same thing we have heard since day one, which is:

 1:  Struggle at the car with Brown leaning inside.

 2:  A shot is fired which causes brown to run.

 3:  Wilson exits the car, pursues, and begins shooting.

 4:  Brown appears to be hit.  Some say he turns with both hands up.  Some say he turns and has one hand up and is sort of doubled over.  Others say he turns and is doubled over or "curled up".

 5:  Several more shots are then fired and that is the end of it.

Without reading again I know witnesses testified they heard the officer order extremely loudly stop, stop, stop.......

The officer could have yelled "I like bathing in pepto bismal!!!" and it wouldn't have mattered.  If his life wasn't in any sort of immediate danger - which all statements that I have read except one indicate - it seems that using lethal force wouldn't be called for.

If I'm just sitting on a park bench, a cop can't shoot me simply because he is yelling "stop stop stop" loudly.

boards of FL wrote:

The Dude wrote:

boards of FL wrote:Does anyone know which witnesses stated that Brown charged?  I've read through about 8 different witnesses on the NPR documents and so far have only found one that said he charged.  Everyone else (that I have seen so far at least.  I have only read through about 8 witness statements) says the same thing we have heard since day one, which is:

 1:  Struggle at the car with Brown leaning inside.

 2:  A shot is fired which causes brown to run.

 3:  Wilson exits the car, pursues, and begins shooting.

 4:  Brown appears to be hit.  Some say he turns with both hands up.  Some say he turns and has one hand up and is sort of doubled over.  Others say he turns and is doubled over or "curled up".

 5:  Several more shots are then fired and that is the end of it.

Without reading again I know witnesses testified they heard the officer order extremely loudly stop, stop, stop.......

The officer could have yelled "I like bathing in pepto bismal!!!" and it wouldn't have mattered.  If his life wasn't in any sort of immediate danger - which all statements that I have read except one indicate - it seems that using lethal force wouldn't be called for.

If I'm just sitting on a park bench, a cop can't shoot me simply because he is yelling "stop stop stop" loudly.

Bob wrote:For bds.

What They Saw: Read Ferguson Witness Accounts

The grand jury investigating the police shooting of Michael Brown heard from more than 60 witnesses — including some who saw the confrontation from their cars, homes or the street. The documents show the jurors who ultimately decided not to indict Officer Darren Wilson had to sift through accounts that often conflicted with each other. Here are some excerpts from the police interviews and testimony:

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/michael-brown-shooting/what-they-saw-read-ferguson-witness-accounts-n255881

When you couple the conflicting eyewitness testimony with the blood splatter evidence which pretty conclusively shows Brown was  running towards Wilson after he was shot at distance,  it would be all but impossible to get a conviction of Wilson "beyond a reasonable doubt".

The Dude wrote:

boards of FL wrote:

The Dude wrote:

boards of FL wrote:Does anyone know which witnesses stated that Brown charged?  I've read through about 8 different witnesses on the NPR documents and so far have only found one that said he charged.  Everyone else (that I have seen so far at least.  I have only read through about 8 witness statements) says the same thing we have heard since day one, which is:

 1:  Struggle at the car with Brown leaning inside.

 2:  A shot is fired which causes brown to run.

 3:  Wilson exits the car, pursues, and begins shooting.

 4:  Brown appears to be hit.  Some say he turns with both hands up.  Some say he turns and has one hand up and is sort of doubled over.  Others say he turns and is doubled over or "curled up".

 5:  Several more shots are then fired and that is the end of it.

Without reading again I know witnesses testified they heard the officer order extremely loudly stop, stop, stop.......

The officer could have yelled "I like bathing in pepto bismal!!!" and it wouldn't have mattered.  If his life wasn't in any sort of immediate danger - which all statements that I have read except one indicate - it seems that using lethal force wouldn't be called for.

If I'm just sitting on a park bench, a cop can't shoot me simply because he is yelling "stop stop stop" loudly.

Again without reading every witness the prosecutor said some. Witnesses testified that the officer was charged. Maybe you could go read every  witnesses testimony and call CNN with your findings if this was not true

boards of FL wrote:

The Dude wrote:

boards of FL wrote:

The Dude wrote:

boards of FL wrote:Does anyone know which witnesses stated that Brown charged?  I've read through about 8 different witnesses on the NPR documents and so far have only found one that said he charged.  Everyone else (that I have seen so far at least.  I have only read through about 8 witness statements) says the same thing we have heard since day one, which is:

 1:  Struggle at the car with Brown leaning inside.

 2:  A shot is fired which causes brown to run.

 3:  Wilson exits the car, pursues, and begins shooting.

 4:  Brown appears to be hit.  Some say he turns with both hands up.  Some say he turns and has one hand up and is sort of doubled over.  Others say he turns and is doubled over or "curled up".

 5:  Several more shots are then fired and that is the end of it.

Without reading again I know witnesses testified they heard the officer order extremely loudly stop, stop, stop.......

The officer could have yelled "I like bathing in pepto bismal!!!" and it wouldn't have mattered.  If his life wasn't in any sort of immediate danger - which all statements that I have read except one indicate - it seems that using lethal force wouldn't be called for.

If I'm just sitting on a park bench, a cop can't shoot me simply because he is yelling "stop stop stop" loudly.

Again without reading every witness the prosecutor said some. Witnesses testified that the officer was charged. Maybe you could go read every  witnesses testimony and call CNN with your findings if this was not true

I'm saying that after selecting 8 witnesses at random and reading their statements, I have only seen one that says Brown was charging.  The rest say he ran, was hit, turned, doubled over, more shots, the end.  All statements - except one - paint a picture in which lethal force would not be justified.

This is why I have asked if anyone here knows which witnesses actually corroborate Wilson's side of the story.

If you have no interest in looking at the evidence and reaching your own conclusions, why even bother expressing your opinion on a thread like this?  What do you really have to offer here?

The Dude wrote:

boards of FL wrote:

The Dude wrote:

boards of FL wrote:

The Dude wrote:

boards of FL wrote:Does anyone know which witnesses stated that Brown charged?  I've read through about 8 different witnesses on the NPR documents and so far have only found one that said he charged.  Everyone else (that I have seen so far at least.  I have only read through about 8 witness statements) says the same thing we have heard since day one, which is:

 1:  Struggle at the car with Brown leaning inside.

 2:  A shot is fired which causes brown to run.

 3:  Wilson exits the car, pursues, and begins shooting.

 4:  Brown appears to be hit.  Some say he turns with both hands up.  Some say he turns and has one hand up and is sort of doubled over.  Others say he turns and is doubled over or "curled up".

 5:  Several more shots are then fired and that is the end of it.

Without reading again I know witnesses testified they heard the officer order extremely loudly stop, stop, stop.......

The officer could have yelled "I like bathing in pepto bismal!!!" and it wouldn't have mattered.  If his life wasn't in any sort of immediate danger - which all statements that I have read except one indicate - it seems that using lethal force wouldn't be called for.

If I'm just sitting on a park bench, a cop can't shoot me simply because he is yelling "stop stop stop" loudly.

Again without reading every witness the prosecutor said some. Witnesses testified that the officer was charged. Maybe you could go read every  witnesses testimony and call CNN with your findings if this was not true

I'm saying that after selecting 8 witnesses at random and reading their statements, I have only seen one that says Brown was charging.  The rest say he ran, was hit, turned, doubled over, more shots, the end.  All statements - except one - paint a picture in which lethal force would not be justified.

This is why I have asked if anyone here knows which witnesses actually corroborate Wilson's side of the story.

If you have no interest in looking at the evidence and reaching your own conclusions, why even bother expressing your opinion on a thread like this?  What do you really have to offer here?

I'm saying I believe the prosecutor if you don't then go prove it.....instead of being so lazy maybe you could get some money for it

boards of FL wrote:

The Dude wrote:

boards of FL wrote:

The Dude wrote:

boards of FL wrote:

The Dude wrote:

boards of FL wrote:Does anyone know which witnesses stated that Brown charged?  I've read through about 8 different witnesses on the NPR documents and so far have only found one that said he charged.  Everyone else (that I have seen so far at least.  I have only read through about 8 witness statements) says the same thing we have heard since day one, which is:

 1:  Struggle at the car with Brown leaning inside.

 2:  A shot is fired which causes brown to run.

 3:  Wilson exits the car, pursues, and begins shooting.

 4:  Brown appears to be hit.  Some say he turns with both hands up.  Some say he turns and has one hand up and is sort of doubled over.  Others say he turns and is doubled over or "curled up".

 5:  Several more shots are then fired and that is the end of it.

Without reading again I know witnesses testified they heard the officer order extremely loudly stop, stop, stop.......

The officer could have yelled "I like bathing in pepto bismal!!!" and it wouldn't have mattered.  If his life wasn't in any sort of immediate danger - which all statements that I have read except one indicate - it seems that using lethal force wouldn't be called for.

If I'm just sitting on a park bench, a cop can't shoot me simply because he is yelling "stop stop stop" loudly.

Again without reading every witness the prosecutor said some. Witnesses testified that the officer was charged. Maybe you could go read every  witnesses testimony and call CNN with your findings if this was not true

I'm saying that after selecting 8 witnesses at random and reading their statements, I have only seen one that says Brown was charging.  The rest say he ran, was hit, turned, doubled over, more shots, the end.  All statements - except one - paint a picture in which lethal force would not be justified.

This is why I have asked if anyone here knows which witnesses actually corroborate Wilson's side of the story.

If you have no interest in looking at the evidence and reaching your own conclusions, why even bother expressing your opinion on a thread like this?  What do you really have to offer here?

I'm saying I believe the prosecutor if you don't then go prove it.....instead of being so lazy maybe you could get some money for it

Listen to what you're saying.  I'm here reading witness statements and sifting through the documents.  You're saying that you accept whatever the prosecutor says.  You then go on to tell me I am the one who is being lazy here.

Do you actually know what the term 'lazy' means?