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Obama screws up on health care bill---millions of poor left out--

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cool1 wrote:
Dreamsglore wrote:
cool1 wrote:
Dreamsglore wrote:
cool1 wrote:Im not rich---I live pay check to pay check and try to buy food---the food part is hard , because I dont get food stamps lol People who get food stamps are better off--then they can pay bills easier.

My husband is disabled -but still works -why because you cant live off food stamps alone Razz

Oh he says sometimes he feels as though the working people get screwed-stop working -live off the government -like Obama would like to see us do!

haha then he says Wanda, we wouldnt make it if we do something like that No heehee I told him no we wouldnt .

I have property --- I cant eat it.

Have you thought about getting a job,Wanda? Most people can't live off one paycheck nowdays.



hee hee I do have a side job Razz ---thanks for your concern Rolling Eyes

What's a side job? Isn't that where you have a full time job and then one on the side? BTW, people who get foodstamps are not better off.They have a low income.That's why they get them. Surprised



well if they dont like there low income --maybe they should get a part time job like me Razz

Obama screws up on health care bill---millions of poor left out-- - Page 3 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSOoN_6TlINlsl6osoa6s6emKCHrhOgISUid_g9eCDnN4G3ne9u

*****WARM SMILE*****

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBmtaFq0kvQ

Smile

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Dreamsglore wrote:
Damaged Eagle wrote:
Dreamsglore wrote:
Chrissy wrote:
Dreamsglore wrote:Let's see 46 million people in poverty in the US and the other half w/ one foot on a banana peel. This is the land where if you work hard you will succeed.Right? Guess again. You would be better off living in Europe.

Americas poverty is better than the average person in europe. But feel free to move to europe since you regard it so highly.

Really? Since when have you been there and know the living situation? Europeans do live a better life when it comes to healthcare and other living conditions. I don't need your endorsement to live there.Actually, I am thinking about it but I have reservations due to my family. You say ignorant things about that which you know so little of.


Bullshit! I spent over five years in Europe.

Where in your mind is this imaginary European land of better health care for all?

*****CHUCKLE*****

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuY44PHC0wI

Laughing

There are 37 countries that have better healthcare than we do.get educated. France is one.

Obama screws up on health care bill---millions of poor left out-- - Page 3 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcToZmUa02Zxk2V0HV7M7rElWC7O5w_3AWGq8vNw9TeIVrnYz4SFgA

Then move to France so you can find out just how wonderful it is.

*****SMILE*****

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tna0Mmu1XlI

Smile

Ironsights is right in his earlier comment, you really don't have a clue, but I already knew that.

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2seaoat wrote:No Medicare for all is sub par medical care for all. And what i decide to eat or not eat is not any of your concern

Please tell me one person you have met who is receiving medicare who has told you they are getting sub par medical care. I call BS. Now in regard to what you want to eat. It is your choice in America. It is also America's choice to tax those items which are put in the stream of commerce which increases health care costs. If we give huge farm subsidies which subsidize beef production, and the big mac with 1400 calories is clogging your artery.....that is your choice, but we need to stop that farm subsidy and allow certain foods to be priced in the marketplace based on their true cost to society. This is done simply with sales tax. We tax alcohol and cigarettes. The punitive nature of the tax impacts the retail price of those things we believe should have consumption reduced. So I am not concerned about what you eat, but completely concerned about recouping revenue for your choices.
http://www.clinicaloncology.com/ViewArticle.aspx?d=Solid+Tumors&d_id=148&i=May+2011&i_id=728&a_id=17085
http://nutrition.mcdonalds.com/getnutrition/nutritionfacts.pdf
550 calories by the way
and the tax on those items is called a usage tax and since you don't have to pay for my choices since i pay for my own insurance why should i be punished for it?

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Dreamsglore wrote:

There are 37 countries that have better healthcare than we do.get educated. France is one.
http://www.who.int/whr/2000/en/whr00_en.pdf
are you referring to this which places us as 37th in its rankings but 1st in level of care, responsiveness of care, 3rd in distribution of care, but much lower in health of its citizens, (obesity being one of the big factors)?

http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/23/3/89.long
granted France wasn't included but several others were

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-204_162-681801.html

a good story about a boy being saved but where did he get the health care was it in one of those better healthcare countries...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/jun/06/us-medical-care-haven-nhs

http://www.businessweek.com/stories/2007-06-13/is-europes-health-care-better-businessweek-business-news-stock-market-and-financial-advice
"What neither the French nor the British system can overcome is the stark math of cost-benefit analysis. A cancer drug like Avastin, which can extend a patient's life by a few months, costs $48,000 annually per patient. It's far too expensive, by NICE's reckoning, to provide to all colon cancer patients, so it's available to none. In France, the state pays a portion and the wealthy are free to make up the difference. Money, in other words, buys good health—on both sides of the Atlantic."
notice we can get this drug easily in US but not in Britain which was ranked what again.

there are many more if i really need to show you of people coming here or being denied treatments that the US offers in those countries with such better healthcare

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Guest

Dreamsglore wrote:

You don't know much about bankruptcy, do you?
Um yes i do in fact know quite a bit since 2 separate family members have gone through it. but good to know your off the ball.

Dreamsglore wrote:FYI, alot of people don't have families to help or unable to w/ enormous medical bills.

But in your scenario she does so your point is mute in dealing with Chrissy being disabled in her car wreck.

Dreamsglore wrote: I see htere's a lot of ignorance on this subject.Not surprising.
yes and you need to get better educated

PBulldog2

PBulldog2

Ironsights wrote:
PBulldog2 wrote:
2seaoat wrote:Hey seaoat. Not everything is about you.

I think it is. The example I gave is from what we actually pay. To criticize the President because health care has out paced inflation for thirty years and it is very expensive.......well that is silliness. I smile when you have wealth envy and make assumptions, but in the end Medicare for all is the most cost efficient system for health care provision. Also, if an industrial sector in America was pouring pollutants into a stream, or if junk food manufacturers pour poison into the stream of commerce, should we not penalize those polluters to pay for the clean up? Should a large part of our health care budget be for prevention, rather than clean up? There are simple answers. Medicare for all......TODAY!

Seaoat, you know I agree about Medicare for all. Chrissy, you and I will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

While we're talking about health care for the poor, as well as the twin subjects of increasing access to mental health care and gun control, take at look at this article:

http://www.nwfdailynews.com/local/bridgeway-center-to-close-all-inpatient-services-gallery-1.86868

FORT WALTON BEACH —Bridgeway Center’s Crisis Stabilization Unit will close its doors in March, affecting numerous agencies in Okaloosa and Walton counties.

The closing is expected no later than March 31.

No Medicare for all is sub par medical care for all. And what i decide to eat or not eat is not any of your concern Last time i checked we lived in America (with the exception of New York and California) the land of the free.
And medicare for all is not the most cost efficient system its a failing system. As for it versus private healthcare, give me private health care everyday.

I had Medicare for several years. The care I received was excellent. Perhaps it wouldn't be a "failing" system if we removed the overhead necessary to deal with all the private insurance companies.

Bully for you that you can receive private health care. I suspect you have either employer-sponsored insurance or (sigh.....) Medicare. Too many people can't provide the exorbitant price of health care today. So glad you're not one of those.

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Guest

Ironsights wrote:
Dreamsglore wrote:

You don't know much about bankruptcy, do you?
Um yes i do in fact know quite a bit since 2 separate family members have gone through it. but good to know your off the ball.

Dreamsglore wrote:FYI, alot of people don't have families to help or unable to w/ enormous medical bills.

But in your scenario she does so your point is mute in dealing with Chrissy being disabled in her car wreck.

Dreamsglore wrote: I see htere's a lot of ignorance on this subject.Not surprising.
yes and you need to get better educated

Oh really? You know a lot about bankruptcy because two family members went through it? Well, my son in law is a dentist. I should be able to know how to do a root canal then. LOL! Since when is family responsible for paying your medical bills or supporting you? That's not my or anyone else's responsibility. Just because I'm related to you doesn't mean I'm going to support you. You have some very distorted ideas about responsibility.

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Guest

PBulldog2 wrote:
Ironsights wrote:
PBulldog2 wrote:
2seaoat wrote:Hey seaoat. Not everything is about you.

I think it is. The example I gave is from what we actually pay. To criticize the President because health care has out paced inflation for thirty years and it is very expensive.......well that is silliness. I smile when you have wealth envy and make assumptions, but in the end Medicare for all is the most cost efficient system for health care provision. Also, if an industrial sector in America was pouring pollutants into a stream, or if junk food manufacturers pour poison into the stream of commerce, should we not penalize those polluters to pay for the clean up? Should a large part of our health care budget be for prevention, rather than clean up? There are simple answers. Medicare for all......TODAY!

Seaoat, you know I agree about Medicare for all. Chrissy, you and I will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

While we're talking about health care for the poor, as well as the twin subjects of increasing access to mental health care and gun control, take at look at this article:

http://www.nwfdailynews.com/local/bridgeway-center-to-close-all-inpatient-services-gallery-1.86868

FORT WALTON BEACH —Bridgeway Center’s Crisis Stabilization Unit will close its doors in March, affecting numerous agencies in Okaloosa and Walton counties.

The closing is expected no later than March 31.

No Medicare for all is sub par medical care for all. And what i decide to eat or not eat is not any of your concern Last time i checked we lived in America (with the exception of New York and California) the land of the free.
And medicare for all is not the most cost efficient system its a failing system. As for it versus private healthcare, give me private health care everyday.

I had Medicare for several years. The care I received was excellent. Perhaps it wouldn't be a "failing" system if we removed the overhead necessary to deal with all the private insurance companies.

Bully for you that you can receive private health care. I suspect you have either employer-sponsored insurance or (sigh.....) Medicare. Too many people can't provide the exorbitant price of health care today. So glad you're not one of those.

The private health insurance industry provides a half million jobs. How many of those jobs are you willing to add to the gov payroll?

I take it that your comment refers to removing private ins all together since its medicare for all.

PBulldog2

PBulldog2

Chrissy wrote:

The private health insurance industry provides a half million jobs. How many of those jobs are you willing to add to the gov payroll?

I take it that your comment refers to removing private ins all together since its medicare for all.

Yes, Chrissy, although it is not a popular stance, I support removing private insurance as the primary payor. I also think health insurance should be completely severed from employment, and I think a universal health care system is the best way to make sure this happens.

Private insurance can remain as an option for those who want more coverage than universal health care provides.

Then again, I also think health care should not be for profit, since that's the whole reason costs in our country are so high to begin with.

I realize this will affect jobs. It might affect mine. However, I think it's the moral and right thing to do.

Guest


Guest

PBulldog2 wrote:
Chrissy wrote:

The private health insurance industry provides a half million jobs. How many of those jobs are you willing to add to the gov payroll?

I take it that your comment refers to removing private ins all together since its medicare for all.

Yes, Chrissy, although it is not a popular stance, I support removing private insurance as the primary payor. I also think health insurance should be completely severed from employment, and I think a universal health care system is the best way to make sure this happens.

Private insurance can remain as an option for those who want more coverage than universal health care provides.

Then again, I also think health care should not be for profit, since that's the whole reason costs in our country are so high to begin with.

I realize this will affect jobs. It might affect mine. However, I think it's the moral and right thing to do.

Oh well, you've kicked the hornet's nest now. Let's see how many different kinds of turds she will call you now?

cool1

cool1

Dreamsglore wrote:
cool1 wrote:this is crazy---I am disabled myself but I at least try to get off my butt and do something---and yes I see it everyday -people do live better off food stamps why because most lie--when they get them. Razz



My part time job as I call it --runs all year round except for very cold months-get up at 4 jump in dirt---for 3 or 4 hours a day---then prepare to sell-then I have people calling anytime of day -drive ups--and then having to go out late in the dirt wishing you had a light so you can see because you have a customer in the morning---I take that back -I have a full time job now that I think about it.

I like working for myself--that is my choice--I dont have to answer to no one ---and the best part of it all---the county considers my job as a yard sales---so my money does not go to Obama at all Razz

So you don't pay taxes on it? The county doesn't decide that so you have earned income you get free and clear and you're dissing people on foodstamps? That's the same as an illegal alien coming here and working and not paying taxes.


your not to bright are you---I said I called you know to pay taxes so I would not get into trouble and they said I dont have to worry about it-so im not going to worry about it Razz --haha I have legal status --that is the diff---yea im dissing -dirt is free --anyone could do what I do so I say get to work---the ones who cant work period---I have no problem with those getting food stamps--I dont even need permits ---now go dream up something else Razz ---my husband worked overtime this week --Im going to go eat now Razz

Guest


Guest

cool1 wrote:
Dreamsglore wrote:
cool1 wrote:this is crazy---I am disabled myself but I at least try to get off my butt and do something---and yes I see it everyday -people do live better off food stamps why because most lie--when they get them. Razz



My part time job as I call it --runs all year round except for very cold months-get up at 4 jump in dirt---for 3 or 4 hours a day---then prepare to sell-then I have people calling anytime of day -drive ups--and then having to go out late in the dirt wishing you had a light so you can see because you have a customer in the morning---I take that back -I have a full time job now that I think about it.

I like working for myself--that is my choice--I dont have to answer to no one ---and the best part of it all---the county considers my job as a yard sales---so my money does not go to Obama at all Razz

So you don't pay taxes on it? The county doesn't decide that so you have earned income you get free and clear and you're dissing people on foodstamps? That's the same as an illegal alien coming here and working and not paying taxes.


your not to bright are you---I said I called you know to pay taxes so I would not get into trouble and they said I dont have to worry about it-so im not going to worry about it Razz --haha I have legal status --that is the diff---yea im dissing -dirt is free --anyone could do what I do so I say get to work---the ones who cant work period---I have no problem with those getting food stamps--I dont even need permits ---now go dream up something else Razz ---my husband worked overtime this week --Im going to go eat now Razz

I don't know who you talked to but they gave you some wrong information or you just didn't understand what they said. Probably the latter. If you earn money you have to pay taxes on it.Do you understand that? It's called earned income and yes, the IRS would care.It's called tax evasion and you do have to give some to Obama. Ignorance is not an excuse. You're in the same category as illegal aliens working here.

no stress

no stress

Good lord dreams! lighten up. I've met junkyard dogs that were nicer to folks than you. sheeeesh

cool1

cool1

[quote="Dreamsglore"]
cool1 wrote:
Dreamsglore wrote:
cool1 wrote:this is crazy---I am disabled myself but I at least try to get off my butt and do something---and yes I see it everyday -people do live better off food stamps why because most lie--when they get them. Razz



My part time job as I call it --runs all year round except for very cold months-get up at 4 jump in dirt---for 3 or 4 hours a day---then prepare to sell-then I have people calling anytime of day -drive ups--and then having to go out late in the dirt wishing you had a light so you can see because you have a customer in the morning---I take that back -I have a full time job now that I think about it.

I like working for myself--that is my choice--I dont have to answer to no one ---and the best part of it all---the county considers my job as a yard sales---so my money does not go to Obama at all Razz

So you don't pay taxes on it? The county doesn't decide that so you have earned income you get free and clear and you're dissing people on foodstamps? That's the same as an illegal alien coming here and working and not paying taxes.


your not to bright are you---I said I called you know to pay taxes so I would not get into trouble and they said I dont have to worry about it-so im not going to worry about it Razz --haha I have legal status --that is the diff---yea im dissing -dirt is free --anyone could do what I do so I say get to work---the ones who cant work period---I have no problem with those getting food stamps--I dont even need permits ---now go dream up something else Razz ---my husband worked overtime this week --Im going to go eat now Razz

I don't know who you talked to but they gave you some wrong information or you just didn't understand what they said. Probably the latter. If you earn money you have to pay taxes on it.Do you understand that? It's called earned income and yes, the IRS would care.It's called tax evasion and you do have to give some to Obama. Ignorance is not an excuse. You're in the same category as illegal aliens working here.[/quot


I am an American not an illegal , Im trying to build my buisness-right now and people like you and Obama connot stand to see someone make something of themself --do you report your yard sales-- Razz

By the way my situation would not be like the undocumented workers--They take jobs away from Americans and I hope one day I will be able to create jobs for Americans .



Last edited by cool1 on 2/1/2013, 11:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

Guest


Guest

PBulldog2 wrote:
Chrissy wrote:

The private health insurance industry provides a half million jobs. How many of those jobs are you willing to add to the gov payroll?

I take it that your comment refers to removing private ins all together since its medicare for all.

Yes, Chrissy, although it is not a popular stance, I support removing private insurance as the primary payor. I also think health insurance should be completely severed from employment, and I think a universal health care system is the best way to make sure this happens.

Private insurance can remain as an option for those who want more coverage than universal health care provides.

Then again, I also think health care should not be for profit, since that's the whole reason costs in our country are so high to begin with.

I realize this will affect jobs. It might affect mine. However, I think it's the moral and right thing to do.

Obama screws up on health care bill---millions of poor left out-- - Page 3 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcToZmUa02Zxk2V0HV7M7rElWC7O5w_3AWGq8vNw9TeIVrnYz4SFgA

So long as everyone, including all our politicians, are on it and have to wait for service until their number in line is called I have no problem with Medicare for all. Everyone gets treated the same.

*****SMILE*****

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tna0Mmu1XlI

Smile



Last edited by Damaged Eagle on 2/2/2013, 12:51 am; edited 1 time in total

Guest


Guest

Dreamsglore wrote:
cool1 wrote:
Dreamsglore wrote:
cool1 wrote:this is crazy---I am disabled myself but I at least try to get off my butt and do something---and yes I see it everyday -people do live better off food stamps why because most lie--when they get them. Razz



My part time job as I call it --runs all year round except for very cold months-get up at 4 jump in dirt---for 3 or 4 hours a day---then prepare to sell-then I have people calling anytime of day -drive ups--and then having to go out late in the dirt wishing you had a light so you can see because you have a customer in the morning---I take that back -I have a full time job now that I think about it.

I like working for myself--that is my choice--I dont have to answer to no one ---and the best part of it all---the county considers my job as a yard sales---so my money does not go to Obama at all Razz

So you don't pay taxes on it? The county doesn't decide that so you have earned income you get free and clear and you're dissing people on foodstamps? That's the same as an illegal alien coming here and working and not paying taxes.


your not to bright are you---I said I called you know to pay taxes so I would not get into trouble and they said I dont have to worry about it-so im not going to worry about it Razz --haha I have legal status --that is the diff---yea im dissing -dirt is free --anyone could do what I do so I say get to work---the ones who cant work period---I have no problem with those getting food stamps--I dont even need permits ---now go dream up something else Razz ---my husband worked overtime this week --Im going to go eat now Razz

I don't know who you talked to but they gave you some wrong information or you just didn't understand what they said. Probably the latter. If you earn money you have to pay taxes on it.Do you understand that? It's called earned income and yes, the IRS would care.It's called tax evasion and you do have to give some to Obama. Ignorance is not an excuse. You're in the same category as illegal aliens working here.

Obama screws up on health care bill---millions of poor left out-- - Page 3 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRGpOBQsU3VkwqsJS2b3WBkVZixBkGctw3wT_DCTWJcCvaMWZJ_

With the way you support illegal immigration what's a little tax evasion among friends?

She's just showing her entrepreneurial spirit and keeping capitalism alive...

*****CHUCKLE*****

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsIqEq9OFxE

Laughing

Guest


Guest

[quote="cool1"]
Dreamsglore wrote:
cool1 wrote:
Dreamsglore wrote:
cool1 wrote:this is crazy---I am disabled myself but I at least try to get off my butt and do something---and yes I see it everyday -people do live better off food stamps why because most lie--when they get them. Razz



My part time job as I call it --runs all year round except for very cold months-get up at 4 jump in dirt---for 3 or 4 hours a day---then prepare to sell-then I have people calling anytime of day -drive ups--and then having to go out late in the dirt wishing you had a light so you can see because you have a customer in the morning---I take that back -I have a full time job now that I think about it.

I like working for myself--that is my choice--I dont have to answer to no one ---and the best part of it all---the county considers my job as a yard sales---so my money does not go to Obama at all Razz

So you don't pay taxes on it? The county doesn't decide that so you have earned income you get free and clear and you're dissing people on foodstamps? That's the same as an illegal alien coming here and working and not paying taxes.


your not to bright are you---I said I called you know to pay taxes so I would not get into trouble and they said I dont have to worry about it-so im not going to worry about it Razz --haha I have legal status --that is the diff---yea im dissing -dirt is free --anyone could do what I do so I say get to work---the ones who cant work period---I have no problem with those getting food stamps--I dont even need permits ---now go dream up something else Razz ---my husband worked overtime this week --Im going to go eat now Razz

I don't know who you talked to but they gave you some wrong information or you just didn't understand what they said. Probably the latter. If you earn money you have to pay taxes on it.Do you understand that? It's called earned income and yes, the IRS would care.It's called tax evasion and you do have to give some to Obama. Ignorance is not an excuse. You're in the same category as illegal aliens working here.[/quot


I am an American not an illegal , Im trying to build my buisness-right now and people like you and Obama connot stand to see someone make something of themself --do you report your yard sales-- Razz

By the way my situation would not be like the undocumented workers--They take jobs away from Americans and I hope one day I will be able to create jobs for Americans .

I'm glad you're a proud Republican and not a Democrat,Wanda. Kinda evens out those Obama supporter jokes.Good luck on your business. I'm sure you'll be a chain in no time.

cool1

cool1

[quote="Dreamsglore"]
cool1 wrote:
Dreamsglore wrote:
cool1 wrote:
Dreamsglore wrote:
cool1 wrote:this is crazy---I am disabled myself but I at least try to get off my butt and do something---and yes I see it everyday -people do live better off food stamps why because most lie--when they get them. Razz



My part time job as I call it --runs all year round except for very cold months-get up at 4 jump in dirt---for 3 or 4 hours a day---then prepare to sell-then I have people calling anytime of day -drive ups--and then having to go out late in the dirt wishing you had a light so you can see because you have a customer in the morning---I take that back -I have a full time job now that I think about it.

I like working for myself--that is my choice--I dont have to answer to no one ---and the best part of it all---the county considers my job as a yard sales---so my money does not go to Obama at all Razz

So you don't pay taxes on it? The county doesn't decide that so you have earned income you get free and clear and you're dissing people on foodstamps? That's the same as an illegal alien coming here and working and not paying taxes.


your not to bright are you---I said I called you know to pay taxes so I would not get into trouble and they said I dont have to worry about it-so im not going to worry about it Razz --haha I have legal status --that is the diff---yea im dissing -dirt is free --anyone could do what I do so I say get to work---the ones who cant work period---I have no problem with those getting food stamps--I dont even need permits ---now go dream up something else Razz ---my husband worked overtime this week --Im going to go eat now Razz

I don't know who you talked to but they gave you some wrong information or you just didn't understand what they said. Probably the latter. If you earn money you have to pay taxes on it.Do you understand that? It's called earned income and yes, the IRS would care.It's called tax evasion and you do have to give some to Obama. Ignorance is not an excuse. You're in the same category as illegal aliens working here.[/quot


I am an American not an illegal , Im trying to build my buisness-right now and people like you and Obama connot stand to see someone make something of themself --do you report your yard sales-- Razz

By the way my situation would not be like the undocumented workers--They take jobs away from Americans and I hope one day I will be able to create jobs for Americans .

I'm glad you're a proud Republican and not a Democrat,Wanda. Kinda evens out those Obama supporter jokes.Good luck on your business. I'm sure you'll be a chain in no time.

Independant Not Republican --or Democrate I changed my voting card --and thank you for the good luck Very Happy

PBulldog2

PBulldog2

Dreamsglore wrote:
PBulldog2 wrote:
Chrissy wrote:

The private health insurance industry provides a half million jobs. How many of those jobs are you willing to add to the gov payroll?

I take it that your comment refers to removing private ins all together since its medicare for all.

Yes, Chrissy, although it is not a popular stance, I support removing private insurance as the primary payor. I also think health insurance should be completely severed from employment, and I think a universal health care system is the best way to make sure this happens.

Private insurance can remain as an option for those who want more coverage than universal health care provides.

Then again, I also think health care should not be for profit, since that's the whole reason costs in our country are so high to begin with.

I realize this will affect jobs. It might affect mine. However, I think it's the moral and right thing to do.

Oh well, you've kicked the hornet's nest now. Let's see how many different kinds of turds she will call you now?

Nah, not gonna happen. We've learned to argue our points in a civil manner. We've both grown in that respect (I know I have!) Very Happy

What would life be without opposite viewpoints?

Guest


Guest

Dreamsglore wrote:
Oh really? You know a lot about bankruptcy because two family members went through it? Well, my son in law is a dentist. I should be able to know how to do a root canal then. LOL! Since when is family responsible for paying your medical bills or supporting you? That's not my or anyone else's responsibility. Just because I'm related to you doesn't mean I'm going to support you. You have some very distorted ideas about responsibility.
Well if you helped him go though the school and/or assist him with the execution of his root canals. Then yes you can speak as to it with some authority.
As to the family being responsible, in your scenario she is the breadwinner taking care of her family, so by believing that the family should step up and take the slack no i don't see that as having a distorted idea about responsibility at least in my opinion ( You may believe it at such but that is your perception).

Guest


Guest

PBulldog2 wrote:Yes, Chrissy, although it is not a popular stance, I support removing private insurance as the primary payor. I also think health insurance should be completely severed from employment, and I think a universal health care system is the best way to make sure this happens.

Private insurance can remain as an option for those who want more coverage than universal health care provides.

Then again, I also think health care should not be for profit, since that's the whole reason costs in our country are so high to begin with.

I realize this will affect jobs. It might affect mine. However, I think it's the moral and right thing to do.
your stance while not having popularity here does have many who support the idea. However it would be a disaster not only in maintaing the system but in future developments of medical science, prescription drugs, and in medical technologies.

And will you believe it is moral when they decide who can and can't receive medical procedures and medications that could save and extend their lives but do to costs and state procedures will be denied to people. But those who get private insurance will be the rich and then will you further decry how they have access to these things and you don't. Will you then cry for more and more until its the same as private insurance.

And yes Health insurance companies are for profit, and health care is also for profit, but the big reason why medical costs have gone up is malpractice and malpractice insurance. Oh and there is also the low reimbursement rates from medicare/Medicaid.
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/health-insurance-profits-worth-outrage/story?id=9036632

Guest


Guest

Dreamsglore wrote:
Oh really? You know a lot about bankruptcy because two family members went through it? Well, my son in law is a dentist. I should be able to know how to do a root canal then. LOL! Since when is family responsible for paying your medical bills or supporting you? That's not my or anyone else's responsibility. Just because I'm related to you doesn't mean I'm going to support you. You have some very distorted ideas about responsibility.

Obama screws up on health care bill---millions of poor left out-- - Page 3 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQOXLfY5bKGxK8kPTqKZiQ9jSsh4PfQaaEV5kuX8Lqhvhn58fwM

Then why are you making it the governments and every taxpayers responsibility, instead of leaving it to charity?

*****SMILE*****

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhat-xUQ6dw

Smile

Guest


Guest

Dreamsglore wrote:
cool1 wrote:


your not to bright are you---I said I called you know to pay taxes so I would not get into trouble and they said I dont have to worry about it-so im not going to worry about it Razz --haha I have legal status --that is the diff---yea im dissing -dirt is free --anyone could do what I do so I say get to work---the ones who cant work period---I have no problem with those getting food stamps--I dont even need permits ---now go dream up something else Razz ---my husband worked overtime this week --Im going to go eat now Razz

I don't know who you talked to but they gave you some wrong information or you just didn't understand what they said. Probably the latter. If you earn money you have to pay taxes on it.Do you understand that? It's called earned income and yes, the IRS would care.It's called tax evasion and you do have to give some to Obama. Ignorance is not an excuse. You're in the same category as illegal aliens working here.

Dream is partly right here in that if you earn income, even from yard sales it has to be reported to the IRS. Unless you are losing money in the deal. And if you are conducting those "yard sales" as your business then even the state would tax you for it. I would call someone of better authority on the issue if i were you as whoever you were talking too may not have properly understood what was going on. And not in the county but a bit higher up in the bureaucratic food chain.
But she is different from an illegal in that; a) she is an American Citizen (or i assume as much since she has claimed such) and is thus not breaking immigration laws, and b) is not sending her income to another country improving that countries economy while negatively impacting the US's.
As i am not sure exactly what the "Yard sale" job is i can't comment more on the issue.

Dreamsglore wrote:
cool1 wrote:

I am an American not an illegal , Im trying to build my buisness-right now and people like you and Obama connot stand to see someone make something of themself --do you report your yard sales-- Razz

By the way my situation would not be like the undocumented workers--They take jobs away from Americans and I hope one day I will be able to create jobs for Americans .

I'm glad you're a proud Republican and not a Democrat,Wanda. Kinda evens out those Obama supporter jokes.Good luck on your business. I'm sure you'll be a chain in no time.
Many other people have started businesses and done it the legal way. If your business takes off great but understand that at least right now if you are actually making a profit you are committing a federal crime by not reporting your income and could face stiff fines, penalties, and possibly jail time.

PBulldog2

PBulldog2

Ironsights wrote:
your stance while not having popularity here does have many who support the idea. However it would be a disaster not only in maintaing the system but in future developments of medical science, prescription drugs, and in medical technologies.

And will you believe it is moral when they decide who can and can't receive medical procedures and medications that could save and extend their lives but do to costs and state procedures will be denied to people. But those who get private insurance will be the rich and then will you further decry how they have access to these things and you don't. Will you then cry for more and more until its the same as private insurance.

And yes Health insurance companies are for profit, and health care is also for profit, but the big reason why medical costs have gone up is malpractice and malpractice insurance. Oh and there is also the low reimbursement rates from medicare/Medicaid.
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/health-insurance-profits-worth-outrage/story?id=9036632


I'll grant you that malpractice insurance (private, of course - and quite the profit-maker) is one reason health care costs have risen. I don't know if you're a sock or not, but I've written that many times over the years on these forums.

Malpractice is all about profit too, you see, from the insurance companies to the attorneys who specialize in those cases. Yes, they are a large part of the problem. Tort reform is not only necessary but crucial, but it will continue to be ignored due to the large lobbying efforts by both groups (attorney and private insurance providers.)

I don't know where you got the notion that my support of universal health care is about me, or that I will ever cry about what the rich have and I don't, other than my support of OWS in the past. Yeah - you betcha - I think the companies involved in the mortgage scam, from the big bankers and AIG on down, need to do some serious prison time for their involvement, but that won't happen, either, for the same reasons I stated above. Lobbying groups for the bankers and private insurers like AIG.

As long as the large lobbying groups as well as corporations are allowed to buy our legislators, nothing much will change.

My support of universal health care - i.e., "Medicare for all" - doesn't have much to do with me. It won't be long until I'll be eligible for Medicare again. My support has to do with the fact that I don't want the legions of younger people in our country to ever have to go without decent access to comprehensive health care. Obamacare will not provide this, so I'm speculating it won't be too many years until universal health care becomes the standard.

You're wrong about a national health care plan not providing good health insurance. Medicare coverage, by and large, is excellent, although the prescription plan needs some tweaking. During the years I had Medicare, I was never "denied" a life-saving procedure or anything else, except for the medications I needed when I was in the doughnut hole. I never had to wait in line for any treatment or appointment.

I can't speak to reimbursements for physicians or hospital by Medicare and Medicaid, except for the known fact that patients with Medicaid have a helluva time getting an appointment with a physician. That will need to change, and it would change if we had a national health care system. Any national health care plan we would ever have would be under continual review for necessary changes, just as Medicare and Medicaid are today.

If you want to read about financing a national health care plan, go to pnhp.org. That's Physicians for a National Healthcare Plan. I've been a member for some 15 years, so my continuing advocacy for universal health care is not a new thing. Then again, I expect you are a sock, so you already know this. Laughing

PBulldog2

PBulldog2

I don't usually post entire article, but this one deserves it.

It's Time for Single-Payer

By Dr. James Mitchiner
American College of Emergency Physicians (ACEP) News, 08/07/12

"You can always trust the Americans to do the right thing, once they’ve tried everything else."


Winston Churchill’s iconic remark, reportedly issued at the dawn of America’s entry into World War II, is equally applicable to the present American health care debate and the crisis that spawned it.

Regardless of whether you are elated or disappointed with June’s historic Supreme Court decision upholding the constitutionality of the Affordable Care Act, it is certainly no panacea for the problems facing U.S. health care. Even with the law intact, and despite its best intentions, it will still leave some 25 million uninsured, underinsure millions more, expand the corporatization of health care, and do little to control the escalating costs of care over the long term.

So it’s clear we need to do the right thing: the creation of a national, universal, publicly funded health care system, free of the corrupting power of profit-oriented health insurance, and at the same time capable of passing constitutional muster. In short, the right thing is an expanded and improved Medicare-for-All program, otherwise known as single-payer.

Don’t be so shocked. For the last 30 years, we have tried all the alternatives, and none of them have worked. We have experimented with HMOs, PPOs, high-deductible health plans, health savings accounts, pay-for-performance, capitation, and disease management. These ideas have been promoted in various iterations, often with great fanfare, by public and private payers alike, yet none of them have shown long-term success at bending the cost curve. And the promise of the latest reforms du jour, such as Accountable Care Organizations and Patient-Centered Medical Homes, is speculative at best.

American health care is unique among the world’s democracies in that it was never planned in terms of enabling legislation or explicit constitutional authority. As others have stated, our employer-based insurance system, which now covers about 160 million Americans, was an accident of history. Its lineage can be traced to FDR’s wage and price control policies during World War II, where employers were permitted to offer workers health insurance in lieu of higher wages as a job inducement.

This benefit has evolved piecemeal into the Rube Goldberg complexity that is contemporary employer-sponsored health insurance, with some 1,200 private plans each doing the same things – medical underwriting, coordination of benefits, claims adjudication and denial, marketing, public relations, lobbying, litigating, and paying shareholder dividends and inflated CEO salaries while forcing individuals to pay a higher share of premiums, increased deductibles, expanded copays, or a combination of all three.

Taken as a whole, private insurers’ activities are duplicative, inefficient, wasteful of scarce health care resources, conducive of job lock, and completely misdirected in supporting the 21st-century health care agenda that America needs and deserves.

The objective of the ACA’s individual mandate was to remedy a flaw in the market for health insurance: the expectation by the uninsured that the costs of their inevitable illnesses would be benignly transferred to those fortunate to have coverage. If you believe that guaranteed issue and community-rating requires 100% participation in the health insurance market to sustain financial viability, clearly the most efficient mechanism to achieve this is not through an individual mandate, in which the heavy hand of government coerces people to do what they otherwise would not. If the federal government has a professed welfare interest in controlling health care costs, it can – and should – accomplish that goal through a more economically efficient single-payer mechanism.

Given that the primary business objective of a for-profit insurer is to make a profit, the fundamental question we should be asking is this: What is the marginal value of private health insurance? That is, what advantage vis-à-vis a single-payer model like Medicare does our system of private, profit-oriented health insurance convey to patients, providers, and employers? What exactly do private insurers do, above and beyond what Medicare does, that is deserving of their inflated premiums? To my knowledge, there is no evidence that commercial insurance provides easier access or less hassle-free care, is more cost effective, produces care of higher quality, or has better consumer satisfaction ratings than Medicare (if anyone has evidence to the contrary, from the peer-reviewed health policy literature, please advise). And according to a recent poll, most Americans prefer to keep Medicare as it is, rather than switching to a premium-support financing mechanism as advocated by Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wis.). Whatever bad things you can say about our government, at least the Feds are not required to make a profit but are required to answer to all taxpayers, rather than private shareholders who are concerned only with the bottom line.

Under a single-payer system, every American would receive a basic package that would include inpatient and outpatient care, primary care and specialty physician services, emergency care, preventive and restorative care, mental health and substance abuse services, dental care, prescription drugs, home health care, and long-term care. Doctors and other providers would be paid based on a fee-for-service schedule, as negotiated with state governments, with funding coming from progressive payroll taxes paid by both individuals and employers. Quality would be monitored and publicly reported, with financial incentives awarded to providers who followed clinical guidelines endorsed by their medical specialty societies. All services provided would be publicly accountable. Medical decision making at the bedside would be left to the physician.

Conceptually, single-payer is imbued with many myths and misconceptions.

Myth #1: Single-Payer Is One-Size-Fits-All

The No. 1 myth – the alpha myth – is that single-payer represents a choiceless, one-size-fits-all, government-run health care monopsony. This is a blatant falsehood. Single-payer is simply a more efficient and more equitable way of financing health care – and nothing more. By consolidating the administrative functions of insurance, it eliminates bureaucratic duplication and reduces administrative waste, saving time and money for employers, providers, state governments, and consumers alike. It would remove the profit motive from financing care, but not from delivering it. Single-payer would efficiently provide for all Americans – regardless of age, health condition, income, or employment status – universal health care that is portable, affordable, equitable, nonterminating, publicly accountable, and funded through progressive taxation, which for the average family would imply a small additional payroll tax that is much less than its current outlay for insurance premiums. A single-payer system would not supplant the private practice of medicine; you could go to a primary care doctor, specialist, hospital, pharmacist, and lab of your choice.

Myth #2: Canadian Health Care Would Be Bad for America

Americans love to repeat anecdotes about the supposedly lousy medical care our northern neighbors receive from their single-payer system, by demoralized and overworked doctors who work at ill-equipped hospitals with out-of-date technology. This is rubbish. Do Canadians often wait for weeks to see a specialist? Yes. Do Americans also wait? Yes. There is no evidence that Canadians are dropping dead in the streets while waiting for their emergency bypasses or appendectomies, nor is there any evidence that Canadian physicians are emigrating to the U.S. or other countries en masse. Further, there is no evidence that the quality of care in Canada, across the board, is inferior to that practiced in the U.S. Despite comparable rates of smoking and alcoholism, Canadians on average live longer than Americans by more than 2 years, and their infant mortality rate is less than ours. Finally, consider this: Canadians spend much less than we do for health care, both in per-capita dollars and as a percent of GDP, so I have no doubt that if we were to adopt a Canadian-style system and fund it to the tune of $2.6 trillion annually, we would not have 9-month waits for MRIs, even if every one of them was clinically indicated.

Myth #3: Market-Based Medicine Trumps Single-Payer

Some argue that our private, market-based system is fundamentally sound, that it should be freed of government regulation and tweaked to promote greater competition based on price, and thus choice of health insurance plans. Really? Does anyone seriously believe that purchasing health care services is fundamentally no different from buying a new car or a flat-screen TV? (If so, I suggest he or she take a course in health economics.) And would anyone seriously believe that Americans want a choice of health insurance, when what they really desire is a choice of doctors and hospitals? What could be more American, more consumer-friendly, and more constitutional than the ability to choose your health care provider based on whatever criteria you deem important? So why not cut out the middleman and let doctors, hospitals, and other providers compete on such things as quality, service, reputation, convenience, and other personal preferences, rather than having private insurers make these choices for us?

Just consider what "The Market" has done for health care in the last 30 years: a steady increase in the number of uninsured; a decrease in the choice of providers; diversion of resources into more profitable hospitals and services; consolidation of HMOs into health care oligopolies; underfunding of less profitable endeavors, such as public health, trauma centers, and mental health services; unaffordable prescription drugs; dissatisfied patients; frustrated physicians; and of course, an inexorably increasing trajectory of health care costs.

Myth #4: Single-Payer Would Stop Medical Innovation

To my knowledge, there is no correlation between innovation and a country’s method of health care financing. Many technologies and medical advances we now take for granted originated in nations with national health insurance, for example, CT scans and MRIs (Great Britain), laparoscopic cholecystectomy (Canada), percutaneous coronary angioplasty (Germany), and H. pylori treatment (Australia). The largest single source of funding for medical research in the U.S. is a government agency – the National Institutes of Health – which provided almost $31 billion in funding for medical research in fiscal year 2012. And in terms of per-capita drug R&D costs, the U.S. lags behind Britain and Sweden.


Myth #5: Single-Payer Is Impossible to Enact Politically

Perhaps this is true – for now. But if social change depended solely on what was politically pragmatic, women would not have achieved the right to vote in 1920, civil rights legislation would not have been enacted in 1964, and Medicare would have failed in 1965. We should always be careful to distinguish between what’s desirable and what’s doable. The fact that tort reform is certainly desirable, but not politically doable at the present time, has not stopped ACEP from investing significant time and financial resources to advocate for change. Public opinion polls have consistently shown that the level of public support for single-payer is 60% plus. A survey of physicians published 4 years ago showed that single-payer garnered 59% support among the 2,193 physicians polled (support among emergency physicians was even higher, at 69%). Despite this, there is no question that moving to a single-payer system will face enormous obstacles. What is needed, as columnist David Lazarus of the Los Angeles Times pointed out, is a "massive infusion of political courage and the willingness to forsake political purity."

Myth #6: We Can’t Afford Single-Payer

Given our current system, perhaps the better statement would be "we can’t afford not to have single-payer." The most recent financial projections portend no overall decrease in the cost trajectory for health care over the next 8 years, even if the ACA remains intact. Under a single-payer model, a modest increase in taxes would be overshadowed by savings from elimination of insurance premiums, offsets from economies of scale, decreased out-of-pocket payments, and the disappearance of cost-shifting. The annual savings from transforming to a single-payer system are estimated to be $400 billion. If you look at the cost curves for U.S. and Canadian health care, they were identical until the mid-1970s, when Canada’s health system was fully implemented. From then on, the curves diverged, with America’s climbing much faster than Canada’s. When Taiwan converted to single-payer in 1995, the costs went up in the first year, as expected, and then leveled off to a reasonable increase of about 3% per year.

What Does This Mean for Emergency Medicine?

Well, consider the ED as a de facto single-payer environment. Patients come to us by choice without needing to first check with their health plan (assuming they have one) to see if their ED visit is covered. We see them without asking them to pay in advance for their ED services, and their care is not predicated on their job, income, or insurance coverage. As emergency physicians, we have more autonomy than our primary care colleagues in terms of making diagnostic and therapeutic decisions without the nonsense of "pre-authorization" or other interference from an insurer who is interested only in the bottom line. While it’s nice to be able to make medical decisions without checking on insurance status, it would be even nicer if we actually got paid for every ED patient treated. Private insurance companies simply have no incentive – in fact, it’s not at all consistent with their business model – to pay for EMTALA-mandated services provided by out-of-network emergency physicians.

Looking again to Medicare as a single-payer model, consider how we emergency physicians interact with Medicare vs. private insurers. In 29 years of practice, I have never had to seek permission from a CMS official to admit a fee-for-service Medicare patient, have never had a consultant refuse a referral for a Medicare beneficiary, and have never had a pharmacist call me to say the prescription for my Medicare patient was not covered by the formulary. This is not true for some of my patients in managed care plans, including those who were sick enough to be admitted but had to be transferred because my hospital (which the patients self-selected) did not participate in their plan.

Single-payer is the only remaining option to simultaneously and synergistically expand access, control costs, preserve choice, and reduce disparities. There is simply no other efficient and constitutionally safe way to do this. Any other proposals are nothing more than tinkering around the edges and based on blind faith that some kind of future financial salvation will somehow save us from the impending health care meltdown. A single-payer, improved Medicare-for-All program would overhaul our dysfunctional health care financing system so that it works best for patients – and for physicians.

Dr. Mitchiner is an emergency physician in Ann Arbor, Mich., a former president of the Washtenaw County (Mich.) Medical Society, and a member of Physicians for a National Health Program. ACEP News is a publication of the American College of Emergency Physicians.

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