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We now have the first impeachable offense in place....who was that candidate for federal office?

+7
Floridatexan
Vikingwoman
ConservaLady
polecat
zsomething
PkrBum
2seaoat
11 posters

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2seaoat



Trump has not been charged with any crimes

No, Mueller and his group have not charged. The AG policy is that a sitting President cannot be indicted. I disagree with this position, and find it constitutionally incorrect. However, the NY AG has plenty to charge Trump, his children, and the accountant for crimes regarding the improper use of trust funds. I have argued this is why Mueller made the referral to the NY office of the AG so they can run a concurrent investigation.

ConservaLady

ConservaLady

2seaoat wrote:You are missing the point.   It was not a "campaign expenditure".  Are you saying the payment and associated legal costs should have been reported as "campaign expenditures" !!??!!   Really?


It most certainly was a campaign in kind contribution which had to be accounted for, and they are looking how it was invoiced.  

If you want to argue payment of a personal non-disclosure agreement over some years old personal disagreement about an alleged personal incident that happened many years ago is a "campaign contribution", then you have to say also it could be paid for with campaign funds. Along with the associated legal expenses.

Is that what you are trying to argue? That paying off a mistress is a legitimate campaign expenditure that can be paid for with campaign funds?

I don't want to be too hard on you, Mr Seaoat, because I can see that you are often a somewhat fair-minded, thoughtful, and intelligent person (unlike some others on here), but just think about the logic of it for a moment. And also be sure to take a look at it in light of the John Edwards case and various respected legal opinions on this type of matter.

2seaoat wrote:
I listened to CNN


Oh, boy. CNN, huh?

Yes, my husband and family get all of our legal opinions and advice from CNN. Rolling Eyes I suppose we should fire our (expensive) attorneys and accountant and just call up Don Lemon when we need a legal readout on something. Rolling Eyes

Floridatexan

Floridatexan

ConservaLady wrote:
Floridatexan wrote:
Alan Dershowitz is a grandstanding pig.  I wouldn't leave him alone with my daughters or grandkids for one New York minute.  And you are still stupid....what time is it?  Yep, still stupid.

Still afraid to answer a very simple question, I see. ( Because doing so would expose the liberal lies about this issue.)

Okay, then.  You're excused.  You don't have to answer the question.  It's okay, because I know that deep down you know that I am right about this.  As is Alan Dershowitz and many other educated minds.

You don't excuse me. And you are lying scum.

https://theoutline.com/post/5278/alan-dershowitz-should-not-have-had-friends-to-lose?zd=1&zi=svnaxppa

Vikingwoman



ConservaLady wrote:
Vikingwoman wrote:
Cohen had no deal when he went into court. Coming on here and making statements Manafort had too much integrity when he was convicted of 8 counts shows you don't have any sense and are deceitful to say the least.

The tax issues are entirely unrelated to Trump or the 2016 campaign. Cohen's prosecutor was wrong to lump that particular not-a-crime charge in the plea agreement with the tax charges.  One has nothing to do with the other.

It's not a crime to pay someone for a non-disclosure agreement.   In fact, I could give you $5 to shut up right now.   See, not a crime.

What plea agreement? Cohen doesn't have one. Whether the tax issues are related to Trump remains to be seen but regardless during their investigation they uncovered crimes Manafort committed. There is a connection, I believe,will come out as to why Manafort volunteered to be the unpaid chairman of his campaign.

Vikingwoman



ConservaLady wrote:
2seaoat wrote:You are missing the point.   It was not a "campaign expenditure".  Are you saying the payment and associated legal costs should have been reported as "campaign expenditures" !!??!!   Really?


It most certainly was a campaign in kind contribution which had to be accounted for, and they are looking how it was invoiced.  

If you want to argue payment of a personal non-disclosure agreement over some years old personal disagreement about an alleged personal incident that happened many years ago is a "campaign contribution", then you have to say also  it could be paid for with campaign funds.  Along with the associated legal expenses.

Is that what you are trying to argue?  That paying off a mistress is a legitimate campaign expenditure that can be paid for with campaign funds?

I don't want to be too hard on you, Mr Seaoat, because I can see that you are often a somewhat fair-minded, thoughtful, and intelligent person (unlike some others on here), but just think about the logic of it for a moment.   And also be sure to take a look at it in light of the John Edwards case and various respected legal opinions on this type of matter.

2seaoat wrote:
I listened to CNN


Oh, boy.  CNN, huh?  

Yes, my husband and family get all of our legal opinions and advice from CNN.  Rolling Eyes   I suppose we should fire our (expensive) attorneys and accountant and just call up Don Lemon when we need a legal readout on something.   Rolling Eyes

I think you're ignoring some significant things here like Michael Flynn, Papadopolous and now Michael Cohen. Many things in the dossier have been verified like a Trump campaign official meeting w/ a Kremlin associate in Europe. They have all been caught lying and there is a reason for that. I' sure if this had been Obama you would have had a concern these people have been caught lying about their Russian associations.

RealLindaL



Vikingwoman wrote:I'm sure if this had been Obama you would have had a concern these people have been caught lying about their Russian associations.

If even HALF of this had been Obama, he'd already have been impeached.

2seaoat




Yes, my husband and family get all of our legal opinions and advice from CNN


I do not get my legal opinions from CNN, I get them from being educated.

PkrBum

PkrBum

Lanny Davis: I have no idea if that story I confirmed about the Trump Tower meeting is true or not

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/lanny-davis-i-have-no-idea-if-that-story-i-confirmed-about-the-trump-tower-meeting-is-true-or-not

On July 27, CNN published what looked like a major scoop. President Trump’s former personal attorney, Michael Cohen, claimed that candidate Trump knew “in advance about the June 2016 meeting in Trump Tower in which Russians were expected to offer his campaign dirt on Hillary Clinton.” This was attributed to “sources with knowledge.”

Moreover, CNN’s sources said Cohen is willing to “make that assertion to special counsel Robert Mueller,” who is investigating Russia’s reported interference in the 2016 presidential election.

The New York Post later confirmed the CNN report with an anonymous source of its own. The Cohen scoop was a media sensation for as long as these things normally are in the Trump era.

But guess what: It may all be bunk.

Cohen testified before Congress last year that he had no idea “whether then-candidate Donald Trump had foreknowledge of the 2016 Trump Tower meeting with Russians,” according to Axios. Cohen’s attorney, Lanny Davis (yes, that Lanny Davis), also said this week that the stories from July were total nonsense.

“It was painful,” he told Axios’ Jonathan Swan after being asked why he and Cohen didn’t do more to dispute CNN’s reporting. “We were not the source, we could not confirm, and we could not correct. We had to be silent because of the sensitivity needed in the middle of a criminal investigation."

It’s possible that Cohen was lying then and is telling the truth now, or vice versa. Just because you testify one way doesn't mean you're telling the truth. But now have a look at the New York Post's follow-up report this week on its original Trump Tower meeting coverage.
When The Post called Cohen’s lawyer, Lanny Davis, at the time to confirm the report, he said as an anonymous source that it was accurate.

But Thursday, Davis, speaking on the record, apologized for confirming something he did not know to be true.

“I regret that I wasn’t clear enough to The Post. I should have been more clear. I could not independently confirm the information in the CNN story,” he said.

“I’m sorry that I left that impression. I wasn’t at the meeting. The only person who could confirm that information is my client.”

In other words, Davis confirmed a story for the Post, despite having no idea whether it was true or not. He actively participated in a major narrative he claims now was “painful” to watch.

He didn’t follow-up with the Post until now, only after newsrooms are reporting the initial July reports may be inaccurate.

Boy, if you can’t trust a longtime Clinton ally, then who can you trust?

ConservaLady

ConservaLady

Vikingwoman wrote:

What plea agreement? Cohen doesn't have one.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/document-michael-cohen-plea-agreement

Try and keep up, 'kay?

2seaoat



https://www.lawfareblog.com/document-michael-cohen-plea-agreement

Try and keep up, 'kay?


Now this is funny. First, there was no Plea Agreement, It was a cold plea with an allocution. The article you posted has a wrong heading which any high school graduate could spot, and no mention of the plea which always has the state recommend sentencing. Sentencing is scheduled for some time in the future, and my understanding is that the state will want to extend the time before sentencing recommendations based on Cohen's cooperation.

Better to Remain Silent and Be Thought a Fool than to Speak and Remove All Doubt

PkrBum

PkrBum

Semantics... and a poor one at that. It's an intellectual dishonesty so that you can believe leftist drivel.

2seaoat



Semantics.

Nope, two quite distinct legal concepts which require knowledge, not ignorance.

It is funny how lady made fun of folks who watched CNN......and cannot even handle pedestrian legal concepts.

Deus X

Deus X

What a FOOL! Why on earth would he put this in writing? He deserves everything he gets just for stupidity.



We now have the first impeachable offense in place....who was that candidate for federal office? - Page 4 Ik6NT6H

Vikingwoman



ConservaLady wrote:
Vikingwoman wrote:

What plea agreement? Cohen doesn't have one.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/document-michael-cohen-plea-agreement

Try and keep up, 'kay?

No wonder you're a Trump voter. They're not known for their smarts. Cohen had no plea agreement when he went in court and pleaded guilty. Try to get it right,kay?

2seaoat



The tax implications are what is going to get some folks in trouble in the end. Mueller and his team are very good at documentary evidence and with all these immunity deals you can expect a home run. Trump will continue to humiliate Sessions, and in the process "flip" some senators for impeachment. Donald Trump is a low IQ mobster. Tony would be embarrassed. Trump is the ultimate wussy. The laughing stock of the world, and in the end if he hurts the white nationalist movement, this disaster for President may purge the haters.

zsomething



Deus X wrote:
2seaoat wrote: Trump is a mobster.


NAILED IT!

Indeed. And here's a guy who can witness to exactly that:

Deus X

Deus X

zsomething wrote:
Deus X wrote:
2seaoat wrote: Trump is a mobster.


NAILED IT!

Indeed.  And here's a guy who can witness to exactly that...


And all that stuff was before his Atlantic City debacles and FOUR bankruptcies.

It was after that, when, because of his business record, he couldn't get loans from conventional sources that he started using his real estate holdings to launder money for the Russian mob at a tidy profit. That's what kept him afloat.

The thing that blows my mind is that all this stuff was out in the open and well-known and yet the Republican party allowed him to become the nominee. Nobody spoke up. It just dumbfounds me. They let an open and notorious organized crime associate become the nominee of the party! WTF!

ConservaLady

ConservaLady

Even if one wants to assert that this non-crime (see: John Edwards case, as well as numerous other "campaign finance" rulings by the FEC) is, in fact, a crime, it's a crime committed by Michael Cohen, not President Trump.  

To establish Trump also is guilty of this (non) crime, one would have to establish he "knowingly and willfully" engaged in it.  Pay special attention to that word "knowingly."   Trump engaged the services of his attorney in arranging these agreements.  Why do we engage the services of an attorney? But of course, to ensure what we are doing is legal and proper.   Trump did what the law would expect a responsible businessman, candidate, and person to do.  He sought and relied upon the legal advice of his attorney in this matter.

Cohen’s admission doesn’t mean Trump is guilty, legal experts say
The issue could boil down to whether Trump ‘knowingly and willfully’ defied campaign finance requirements.

By JOSH GERSTEIN 08/23/2018 05:12 AM EDT

To hear Michael Cohen’s spokesman and lawyer Lanny Davis tell it, his client’s bombshell admission in court Tuesday that President Donald Trump directed him to make a $130,000 hush-money payment that violated campaign finance law unambiguously implicates Trump in a crime.

Not so fast, many lawyers say.

Cohen’s admission that he violated campaign finance law while acting at Trump’s direction is far from rock-solid proof that the president is also guilty, even if Cohen is being entirely truthful, these lawyers said.

“The fact Cohen did something illegal doesn’t mean Trump did anything illegal,” said Jan Baran, a longtime Republican campaign finance lawyer.

Cohen said in court on Tuesday that he acted at Trump’s “direction” and violated federal election laws by arranging the payout to Stormy Daniels, an adult-film actress, in the days before the 2016 election to keep her silent about what she said was an affair with Trump a decade earlier.

But a very high legal standard that is applied in criminal cases involving alleged campaign finance violations means Trump might not be guilty even if his lawyer is.

“Under the law, it’s quite easy for two people involved in the same act to have different criminal consequences,” said Andy Grewal, a University of Iowa law professor.

That distinction is particularly critical in campaign finance cases because the law limits criminal prosecutions on those charges to instances where someone “knowingly and willfully” defied legal requirements.

In his plea Tuesday in U.S. District Court in Manhattan, Cohen admitted that he was intending to benefit Trump’s presidential bid when he arranged the payment to Daniels and another payment of $150,000 to a former Playboy playmate, Karen McDougal. Daniels claimed a one-time sexual encounter with Trump, who was married at the time. McDougal said she had sex with Trump dozens of times over a 10-month period.

During a morning TV blitz on Wednesday, Davis said his client’s statement meant that Trump also broke the law.

Cohen “said under oath the most damaging definitive information yesterday, that the president of the United States committed a crime and covered it up,” Davis told NBC.

“The agreement in the Southern District [of New York] was about a crime that Michael Cohen admitted to and said that the president of the United States directed and coordinated that crime, making him complicit and equally culpable,” Davis added on CNN.

But as a lawyer, Cohen could be assumed to have some familiarity with federal election law. Prosecutors may well have proof in emails or other documents that he regularly discussed compliance with such statutes.

Proving that Trump knew at the time that the payouts were intended to influence the presidential race, and that he knew they were illegal, could be much harder. Perhaps such records exist, or maybe Cohen is prepared to say that he told Trump the way they were handling it was illegal, but the lawyer never said that in court on Tuesday.

“In order to prove criminal intent, you have to point to evidence that the actors knew or had reason to know what they were doing was illegal,” said Baran, the GOP campaign finance lawyer.

He said that some issues in campaign finance law were relatively straightforward, like the dollar limit on contributions or that a person can’t lie in reports filed with the Federal Election Commission. But questions of how the law treats payments that have both personal and electoral benefits prompt a lot of disputes even among attorneys who are experts in the field, he said.

“If that many people don’t know what the law means, then it can be very hard to convict anybody of violating a campaign finance law,” Baran said.

Trump seemed to adopt part of that strategy on Wednesday by asserting that the payments Cohen admitted involvement in were not criminal, echoing earlier claims by Rudy Giuliani, the president’s personal lawyer, that payments to the women were personal expenses that had nothing to do with the campaign.

“They didn’t come out of the campaign,” Trump told Fox News. “In fact, my first question, when I heard about it, [was] ‘Did they come out of the campaign, because that could be a little dicey?’ — because that could be a little dicey. It is not even a campaign violation.”

The president later added on Twitter: “Michael Cohen plead [sic] guilty to two counts of campaign finance violations that are not a crime.”

However, the president also appeared to dispute Cohen’s claim that he acted at Trump’s direction, notwithstanding an audio recording made public last month in which Trump and Cohen seem to discuss the mechanics of the McDougal payments.

In the Fox interview Wednesday, Trump appeared to say he didn’t know about the payments to women as they were being made: “Later on, I knew. … Later on.”

Davis did not respond to multiple requests for comment on Wednesday.

If prosecutors are seeking to establish whether Trump had criminal intent, they’ll scramble to find proof that he understood that money paid to influence an election had to be reported and couldn’t lawfully be paid through a corporation in coordination with a candidate or campaign. They might even need proof that Trump knew expenses arguably of a personal nature could be considered campaign donations.

The most famous such case in recent memory was the prosecution of former Sen. John Edwards (D-N.C.) in connection with nearly $1 million in expenses that some of his top campaign donors paid to help keep quiet his affair with Rielle Hunter, a videographer who worked on Edwards’ presidential bid. Edwards was indicted over the payments in 2011 and went to trial on the charges in Greensboro the following year.

Trump indicated on Twitter and in a TV interview that he was following the Edwards case, which involved many of the same issues posed by the payments Cohen arranged.

“I have never been a fan of John Edwards, but it is time for the gov’t to focus on more important things,” Trump wrote.

“This is a very, very tough trial, to start off with. And a lot of people are saying it’s not a trial that the government’s going to win,” Trump added on Fox News. “I really think we have better things to do. … And frankly, a lot of people say, and a lot of very good lawyers have told me, that the government doesn’t have a good case. They’re spending months and years on this case.”

The jury in the Edwards case ultimately acquitted him on one count and deadlocked on five others. The government elected not to retry him and dismissed the charges.

“Trump tweeted about John Edwards’ culpability, so he was certainly aware of the problem of paying off mistresses” during a campaign, said Rick Hasen a University of California law professor. “If Cohen’s story is corroborated and is believed, the most likely conclusion is that Trump did this knowing he was violating the law.”

If there’s no direct or strong proof that Cohen told Trump the payments were illegal, Trump could also have another defense: that it was reasonable to assume that his lawyer was making arrangements that were legal.

“One way to show you didn’t willfully or knowingly break the law, you assume, would be to say you relied on your lawyer,” said Grewal, the University of Iowa law professor. “If you’re just bumbling around and telling your lawyer to do things, you would imagine your lawyer taking care of those things would not break the law.”

Trump indicated in another tweet Wednesday that Cohen’s legal advice had not always been first rate. “If anyone is looking for a good lawyer, I would strongly suggest that you don’t retain the services of Michael Cohen!” the president wrote.

Similar issues of intent have already arisen in a couple of cases stemming from special counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation into possible collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia.

A Russian company indicted in a case that Mueller brought in February over Russian internet trolls’ effort to foment discord during the 2016 election, primarily by backing Trump, has argued that the conspiracy charge against it is legally defective because prosecutors never told the grand jury that the company had to know its conduct was illegal in order to be guilty.

Prosecutors say the nature of the broad conspiracy charge in that case means no such intent must be shown. A federal judge has not yet ruled on the issue.

At the just-completed trial of former Paul Manafort, Trump’s former campaign chairman, prosecutors and defense attorneys also squared off over whether Manafort intentionally violated the law by filing false tax returns and by failing to file reports on foreign bank accounts. The jury convicted Manafort on the tax charges and one of four charges relating to unreported accounts.

One potentially significant twist with Trump is that Justice Department policy says he can’t be indicted while in office. So the question may never directly arise about whether to file a charge against him. Instead, the issue may be whether to include the alleged campaign finance offenses in a report to Congress that could lead to impeachment.

Even there, however, the intent issue could loom large because the Justice Department is likely to take into account how it would have handled a potential criminal case against Trump.

“If Mueller writes a report on potential crimes by the president, there has to be some indication of how serious this is and what does it mean in terms of whether he would have been charged with a crime, even if DOJ is not going to have an indictment of the president,” said Hasen, the University of California law professor. “There’s a lot of ways further analysis of Trump’s motives could come, aside from actually charging him with a crime.”

Floridatexan

Floridatexan


There is a tape of Drumpf and Cohen discussing payment to Karen McDougal:

...

COHEN: And, I’ve spoken to Allen Weisselberg about how to set the whole thing up with …

TRUMP: So, what do we got to pay for this? One-fifty?

COHEN: … Funding . . . Yes. Um, and it’s all the stuff.

TRUMP: Yeah, I was thinking about that.

COHEN: All the stuff. Because — here, you never know where that company — you never know what he’s —

TRUMP: Maybe he gets hit by a truck.

COHEN: Correct. So, I’m all over that. And, I spoke to Allen about it, when it comes time for the financing, which will be —

TRUMP: Wait a sec, what financing?

COHEN: Well, I’ll have to pay him something.

TRUMP: [UNINTELLIGIBLE] pay with cash.

COHEN: No, no, no, no, no. I got it.

TRUMP: Check.

....

https://newrepublic.com/minutes/150177/new-michael-cohen-tape-proves-trump-knew-payout-former-mistress

And now Weisselberg, who handled Drumpf's money for years, has been granted immunity. This can't be spun. And there was also a mysterious $50,000 included in Cohen's fee for IT services. I wonder where that money went. No, I don't.

2seaoat



that this non-crime

This continual spew of propaganda ignorance is amazing. Last time I checked that John Edwards was indicted by a grand jury for a crime. He had a trial. How F'ing stupid can the lady get. I think America will accept the Jury verdict in the Trump cases to come, but this moronic propaganda that John Edwards being charged, indicted and had a trial......was not for a crime, but just some practice for the Grand Jury and SA.........tin foil hat alert. Nobody can lack this much intelligence without just being a sock and troll to make real conservatives look stupid. At least she is giving the fascist logic in the open.

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