Playoffs

I agree that it is very likely that the Warriors will win another title.  Here again, their roster is completely stacked.  They got somewhere between 50-60 points out of their bench last night.  I can't even imagine the dynasty that would happen if Durant or LeBron played on a team with a bench that put up 50.  The Warriors have two of the best three point shooters in the league and a triple double machine in Green.  All are elite defenders and they have a top notch head coach.  

But what I find odd is that Curry can stand out on the 3 point line and put up assisted catch and shoot threes and everyone cries "MVP!".   Or, "He just knows how to win!".  Meanwhile, LeBron can put up 40 point triple doubles on a six man roster of scrubs and the 2seaots - not real world NBA analysts, but the 2seaoats - will say that LeBron is actually the reason the Cavs lose. As if Shumpert, Dellavedova, Mozgov, Smith, and Thompson were destined for a ring last year if not for LeBron screwing it up for them.

This is what it's like discussing NBA with Joani and 2seaoat.  No exaggeration.  It's worse than discussing supply and demand with Markle or PaceDog.

Joanni:  It was a good game.  Curry is a good player.  He threw the ball through the basketball ring.

2seaoat:  I was really impressed by Ian Clark last night.  0-3 from the field. 1-2 at the line.  Finished with 1 point, 0 rebounds, and 0 assists.  The guy is simply a winner who knows how to play team basketball.


Yes.  When point guards get very little assists, it is actually a good thing in 2seaoatland.  Magic Johnson, Jason Kidd...bad.  The lower the assists, the better the PG, in 2seaoat-land.

Boards has not even been watching the Cavs this year. James has assists because he throws bricks from the outside now. He plays out of position and disrupts the flow of the team, and since his brickthrowing the new coach has wisely put him with the second string in the second quarter and allowed the starters to flourish. At least we agree that the warriors are a team and they are the best. Curry could have won with the cavs last year if James and him switched, because James would have destroyed the team portion of the Warriors, and Curry would have made all the quite competent components of the injured Cavs click to win.....yes win, because James would have destroyed the warriors chemistry.....as he has done his ENTIRE career. Some on this forum have been right about basketball and some have been wrong, and not recognizing the same I guess allows a person to declare the team of the ages and the best player ever......we are potentially seeing the best player ever, but after he has five rings we can have that discussion, and even though the Warriors set the win record which is an incredible metric, nobody is foolish to call them the team of ages yet, because knowledgeable basketball folks and not fans realize rings define the same.

Yes. When point guards get very little assists, it is actually a good thing in 2seaoatland. Magic Johnson, Jason Kidd...bad. The lower the assists, the better the PG, in 2seaoat-land.


If you cannot even recognize the type of spacing and offense that the Warriors are running by comparing the same to Kidd or Johnson, you have proven my point about a fan versus objective analysis of the game. You are so caught up in your rationalization of James and his failures that you cannot even recognize the Warrior offense does NOT run from the point guard position, but is a motion offense which has multiple touches and passes which opens the perimeter for their excellent three point shooting. The Warriors have fundamentally changed the game with true team input vs two hall of fame players in Johnson and Kareem working the point and post. Naming Kidd with Johnson also says it all. Take your fan glasses off and open your eyes to reality and learn the game. It was not by accident I took all type of grief at the end of last season saying Curry was the best player in the NBA.....and with the historic unanimous vote I was proven right once again, and sadly you will not even recognize you were proven wrong once again. Put your fan glasses down and step away.

I actually don't think the warriors are positioned as well this year. I think there were mistakes made in going for the 73 wins. They look tired to me... not as consistently in sync. If this series goes long and the cavs sweep it could prove disastrous. Normally I wouldn't like to sit too long waiting for an opponent. But this time it could be different. Curry hurt his elbow last night on the dive. Probably not enough to miss a game... but maybe more important combined with his other issues including fatigue. Green is young and strong enough to push through. But the cumulative effect is not good.

I used to have to be very careful and efficient in the early rounds of tennis tourns not to expend too much energy. It was important. The best player doesn't necessarily win a tennis tournament... especially if they wind up in an early round war.

2seaoat wrote:Yes.  When point guards get very little assists, it is actually a good thing in 2seaoatland.  Magic Johnson, Jason Kidd...bad.  The lower the assists, the better the PG, in 2seaoat-land.


If you cannot even recognize the type of spacing and offense that the Warriors are running by comparing the same to Kidd or Johnson, you have proven my point about a fan versus objective analysis of the game.   You are so caught up in your rationalization of James and his failures that you cannot even recognize the Warrior offense does NOT run from the point guard position, but is a motion offense which has multiple touches and passes which opens the perimeter for their excellent three point shooting.

Actually, I do in fact recognize that.  That is kinda why I said I don't understand the MVP title.  Is the guy who stands out on the line and puts up catch and shoot threes really the most valuable player in the league? Beyond that, I was responding to your idea that assists are somehow bad. As if high assists equate to - and this is your logic here- a me-first, anti-team mentality. Hahahahaha.

Is the fullback who is relied on to make 1 yard runs for TDs the MVP when the rest of the team moved the ball 79 yards?

And 2seaoat believes that Steph Curry is the best player on the planet. Hahahahahaha.

At this point, I'm going to assume that you're simply trolling. I'm not aware of any professional analyst, coach, player, GM, anyone who says that Curry is the best player on the planet.

I just keep being right on basketball and you keep getting it wrong, and you will not even admit when you have been wrong. A historic unanimous vote, and you are so blinded with your fandom that you think my mostly right analysis is trolling........Curry is the the best player in basketball, and may prove to be more than that, but I would not be so foolish to judge a player when they only have two rings........

so I guess I will borrow your line......ha ha ha ha.

If that is the case, then so has the vast majority of professional analysts, statisticians, sports science experts, coaches, GMs, owners, and players. Basically, if I have lost my mind, then so has everyone else in the world except for you, 2seaoat, and a small handful of nutjubs.


hahahaha

Oh, wow. Now we're saying that Iguodala wouldn't start for that Cavs roster.

You, sir, are an abject moron. Seriously. I hate to feed trolls but damn. You're an idiot.
hahahahha


I love this time of year where objective right and wrong can be determined by a simple score.......hahahahahah I am the basketball idiot who has been right four of the last five years, and just missed going five for five.......but when somebody thinks James is relevant in 2016.....they have not been watching the games, and do not understand failure 11 out of 13 times is not a track record that gives confidence......but hey, Cleveland has all their horses....how could this team lose to the Warriors.......hahahahaha.

IF... the warriors struggle in 6 or 7... and the cavs breeze in... I think the cavs have a real chance. Last year the warriors pretty much matched the cavs pace and lost two games. If they do that again this year it's a pick-em series. The warrior advantage is a faster pace and the spacing that allows... and a set defense especially if they control the boards. I don't feel nearly as confident this year in their ability to consistently dictate the flow.

I can only assume that 2seaoat is pulling quotes from around last year's finals when - for perhaps the first time ever - there was serious talk of giving the finals MVP to a player who was on the losing team.  And Curry wasn't even the finals MVP.

I still stand by everything I said in those quotes.  Nothing I have said in this thread is inconsistent with that.  I do question the MVP title for Curry.  He's a dead ringer behind the arc, but an MVP?  I'm not so sure.  Could Curry carry a team of scrubs beyond the first round?  I'm not so sure.  If LeBron and Curry swapped teams last year, would Curry have lead the Cavs to two victories?  I'm almost certain he would have been swept.  Curry's three point shooting ability is simply a sweetener to a team that would have made it to the Western finals with or without him.  He is simply the added factor that puts them over the edge.  

But, sure, we measure a player's value based upon the success of his team.  It makes so much sense.  Cough cough.  So Robert Horry is better than Jordan.  Derek Fisher is better than Curry.   Hell, Udonis Haslem is better than Curry.  You really can't deny this, 2seaoat.  Haslem has more rings.  Curry simply cannot win.  He brings his team down.  If only he were as good as Haslem, perhaps he would have three rings.

Brad Johnson is better than Dan Marino.  Dan Marino was the reason why the Dolphins never won.  Dan Marino simply cannot win.  The team was destined for greatness...if not for being saddled with Dan Marino.  Mario Chalmers is better than Allen Iverson.  You simply can't argue with the results.

Discussing team sports with 2seaoat is like trying to explain control variables to Markle.  I tried explaining control variables countless times, but he simply does not possess the cognitive abilities to quite wrap his head around the concept.  2seaoat appears to be incapable of controlling for clear and obvious variables that affect success and failure beyond just one player.  If a team loses, it's all on one player.  There are no other factors.   If team A defeats team B, we can then conclude that every player on Team A is better than every player on Team B. There simply is no other possible conclusion.

Cough cough.

Curry is a terrific weapon... but I agree that he isn't the league mvp. I don't even think he's the team mvp.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2016/05/18/tyronn-lue-told-lebron-james-shut-the-bleep-up-and-cavs-responded/

If gs isn't hitting on all cylinders I think the cavs are very capable of beating them this year... maybe even ok. The new cavs coach has dramatically picked up their pace... even if at top speed gs has an edge... and they're much healthier. They're hitting the d boards... transitioning better on d... and spreading the floor better on o. Lbj actually has better space and doesn't have to bull rush the paint. The difference might wind up being which superstar checks their ego best.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-warriors-still-arent-the-best-team-ever/

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-best-nba-teams-of-all-time-according-to-elo/

Good second link: I think the parity and rivalries might be underrated in the '80s and'90s.

Curry has to prove nothing. He is the first person to get a unanimous MVP in the league, and his TEAM just won the most games in a season. I hate being right this time of year......over.....and over again, and I love the way some try to cover their rears saying one thing, but posting that the warriors probably will win.....too funny. I love this place. Some attempted to beat me up last year about Curry......he only set the record of the best regular season TEAM wins, and the icing on Seaoat the Basketball Troll's cake.....unanimous MVP......and nobody has said.....you know Seaoat....you nailed this before anybody else, and we beat you up calling you an idiot, nope.....that would take integrity. Instead.....I stand by everything I said is the response.......

Having said that, I still like the way OK plays. I think Adam's play in these playoffs has been really under rated. He has played great defense and has a very nice inside game. His rebounding is stellar. There is just so much talent in the West. The East actually played the best they have played in five years, but the Bucks and some of the other up and coming young teams just folded mid season. With all the money this summer, there could be some incredible shifts in power ratings in the next 18 months. It is too bad the two best teams will not be playing in the finals, but it has been that way for almost five years. Hopefully, the east can start to recover and make up for the deficit of talent in the East the last six years.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-warriors-still-arent-the-best-team-ever/

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-best-nba-teams-of-all-time-according-to-elo/


Good links. I see the Bulls are in their rightful place, and surprisingly the team of the ages did not finish top ten......exactly what I said in 2013. However, the Warriors team is only going to get stronger with their core team, and based on their ages they have a tremendous future where two or three more rings are quite possible. Again, so nobody thinks I am being inconsistent, you start talking about great players and great teams after five rings.......this in no way diminishes the Warriors......just give them some time. They are the best team with the best player in the last 15 years of NBA basketball. Not even difficult for a knowledgeable person to make that statement. I have not seen anybody close to Curry since Jordan, and Curry has such a unique skill set with the new three point metrics, he could become the best basketball player in the history of the game. He is not a physical freak, but his skills have NEVER been seen on any basketball level in the history of the game. He is simply amazing.

I don't think curry is going to be durable enough to fulfill your prophecy. He might be the best role player ever... but no where near an all time great. Maybe he'll come in at a pistol pete on a very good team. It seems you don't know what drives a team.

It seems you don't know what drives a team.

Each team has a unique chemistry. You are right, it is not always easy to know what drives a team. However, your summary of Curry not being durable has not proven to be the case. Unanimous MVP........I have been told that no NBA experts agree with me that he is the best player and a few months later.......everybody agreed with me.........durable has many facets, and I simply think Curry is in another dimension from current NBA players, but at any time, any player can be injured and have their career disappear. However, I will watch the Cavs play the fourth quarter and see If they have evolved to a winning team.......the coach putting James with the second string in the second quarter has been working.....maybe the x factor of a coach may be able to improve his game, but at crunch time he will revert into the ball hog......but when you are playing an incredibly weak Raptors team....well there is no crunch time.

The Cavs are hitting on all cylinders and James had a triple double. He is driving the baseline quite effectively and staying in position for rebounding. The coaching changes with him working with second string and giving Irving and Love more time without James seems to be working quite well. I cannot wait to the final championship series......what excuses will there be this year.....from what I can see, there can be NO EXCUSES this year.

2seaoat wrote:They are the best team with the best player in the last 15 years of NBA basketball.   Not even difficult for a knowledgeable person to make that statement.  

They may be the best team in last 15 years, though they certainly don't have the best player in the last 15 years.  And no one with knowledge of basketball would say as much.

2seaoat wrote:I cannot wait to the final championship series......what excuses will there be this year.....from what I can see, there can be NO EXCUSES this year.

Who is offering excuses?  The Warriors should be able to win the title.  They have the better team and better coach.  They have a bench that puts up 50-60.  They have the two best three point shooters in the league - by far - on the same team.  They have a triple double machine.  That have elite defenders.  If they somehow manage to lose with all of that, it would be because they ran into the greatest player in NBA history.  But even LeBron likely cannot take down a team like that.  He almost did it last year with scrubs, but he Warriors have improved markedly this year.

I think the cavs are much improved since changing coaches... and they are much healthier. Their pace was at the bottom of the league before... now they have a legitimate shot. Imo kerr made a big mistake in pushing for the 73.

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/118600/cavaliers-postseason-reminiscent-of-warriors-24-0-regular-season-start

http://www.newyorker.com/news/sporting-scene/larry-bird-and-reggie-miller-consider-the-four-pointer

Further support for my case.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/3975/stephen-curry

Curry is an OK point guard who is currently enjoying a cast of teammates who can all shoot, all ball-handle, and all play defense at a high level (take Bogut out of that).  He has the luxury of sitting down and watching his bench put up 50.  Take that away, and he is precisely what we saw before all of that.  He is a slightly above average point guard who isn't going to be able to get enough clear shots from behind the arc on his own.  

But that's OK, 2seaoat, Jordan couldn't make it out of the first round either until he had help.  

Notice how his three point attempts begin to rise in 12-13.  I wonder why that is?  Could it be because Klay Thompson and Draymond Green showed up?   You know, the second best shooter in the league and the Power Forward who gets more assists than the Point Guard?  Take those away and he's back to either high teens or low 20s per night and struggling to earn a playoff spot.  Should he limp into the playoffs, he would promptly exit by way of OKC, the Spurs, or some other team that has legit stars who do not require supporting casts in order to shine.  Damian Lillard would sweep Curry without Thompson and Green.

Most Valuable Player.  I can only laugh at that.  Golden State was favored by 5 over Portland when Curry was listed as out.  Then they listed Curry as probable.  It didn't move the line at all.  Most Valuable Player.  Hahahahaha.

Bigger.  Faster.  Stronger.  Smarter.

The Raptors give up the second they see LeBron heading the other way.   LeBron steels, dunks, and is back down playing defense before many even knew what happened.

But, yes. Totally irrelevant to anyone who knows anything about the NBA. He just put up his 15th playoff triple double, 2nd all time leader behind Magic, but completely irrelevant.

If only he were a roll player on a stacked team, perhaps then 2seaoat would better appreciate.

The greatest player who never won......now that is funny. I guess those knowledgeable who select the MVP are just not very knowledgeable about basketball......I guess your excuses for his failures is unlimited, can not shoot, and now he just bull rushes the basket with most of his shots within five feet.....easy to defend when the team is not the Raptors who were walking back....If I was the owner of the Raptors I would play the video of a couple supposed stars walking back on defense, and say.....see ya.