Nice job BOCC!....

Looks like a 4 cent gas hike is here to fund a failure of a business!...

What is the failure of the business. I used mass transit as a kid. I would take the bus when I wanted to go somewhere. We were importing 800 billion dollars of foreign oil and are dollar was crashing, yet you think it is a bad idea to encourage people to use mass transit, to drive less, and to import less foreign oil. The gas tax will encourage people to look for more efficient vehicles....use mass transit...and conserve. I have been a firm believer in increasing the federal gas tax over the next 10 years to bring American gas pricing in line with the worlds pricing, and therefore encouraging high mileage vehicles and conservation.

I will go to the grocery store to pick up an item I have forgotten in a vehicle getting 17 mpg.....yet as the price of gas goes up, I will get another prius, be smarter in my trips in my vehicle, or I will utilize mass transit where available.........the tax is not going to magically change folks behavior, but it is a good start.

2seaoat wrote:What is the failure of the business. I used mass transit as a kid. I would take the bus when I wanted to go somewhere. We were importing 800 billion dollars of foreign oil and are dollar was crashing, yet you think it is a bad idea to encourage people to use mass transit, to drive less, and to import less foreign oil. The gas tax will encourage people to look for more efficient vehicles....use mass transit...and conserve. I have been a firm believer in increasing the federal gas tax over the next 10 years to bring American gas pricing in line with the worlds pricing, and therefore encouraging high mileage vehicles and conservation.

I will go to the grocery store to pick up an item I have forgotten in a vehicle getting 17 mpg.....yet as the price of gas goes up, I will get another prius, be smarter in my trips in my vehicle, or I will utilize mass transit where available.........the tax is not going to magically change folks behavior, but it is a good start.

How many people use it?....Why don't they use it?....Why do people that don't use it have to PAY for a system that is a failure?...If it worked and was self-supporting this wouldn't be a discussion would it?...It's just more government propping up something that very few want....

Actually, high on factors which allow siting of new business is alternative transportation systems. A functioning public transportation system is a plus on business looking to relocate to the area. It has a huge impact on the local economy, and I agree in a perfect world the ridership should support the transit system, but it is competing against a autos which see the gas prices being propped up with subsidy. Ethanol which is now consuming 40% of our corn production is mandated to be in our fuel and its real price is being covered by tax breaks to the large companies like ADM who are able to give you lower gas prices while corn prices see more starving people, and you get lower pump prices......no when you start eliminating subsidies.....please get rid of all of them, or at least reduce them across the board instead of complaining about one, and then taking the benefit of another.

The county gas tax went from 10 cents to 14, I would like to know the average fuel consumption for the county and how much more this will raise the cash flow... It sure seems like they're gettin a lot more than enough to run ecat.. I would also like to know how many people even use the system, most of the buses I see don't have many people on them.. I think a smaller system like airport shuttles would be more cost effective on fuel.

2seaoat wrote:Actually, high on factors which allow siting of new business is alternative transportation systems. A functioning public transportation system is a plus on business looking to relocate to the area. It has a huge impact on the local economy, and I agree in a perfect world the ridership should support the transit system, but it is competing against a autos which see the gas prices being propped up with subsidy. Ethanol which is now consuming 40% of our corn production is mandated to be in our fuel and its real price is being covered by tax breaks to the large companies like ADM who are able to give you lower gas prices while corn prices see more starving people, and you get lower pump prices......no when you start eliminating subsidies.....please get rid of all of them, or at least reduce them across the board instead of complaining about one, and then taking the benefit of another.

Not complaining about public transportation but if it isn't/hasn't worked then again why are working middle class people burdened with absorbing this failure?...If it were such a good start...then why can't it be self supporting?...Again...this wouldn't be an issue if they weren't reaching into the pockets of middle class workers...This is kind of like the argument that's taken place here on this and other forums about the rich paying more in taxes and reading posters that say..."I wouldn't mind paying more taxes"...WELL PAY MORE!...All you wannabe contributors get down to ECat and givem all you can!..

Lurch wrote:The county gas tax went from 10 cents to 14, I would like to know the average fuel consumption for the county and how much more this will raise the cash flow... It sure seems like they're gettin a lot more than enough to run ecat.. I would also like to know how many people even use the system, most of the buses I see don't have many people on them.. I think a smaller system like airport shuttles would be more cost effective on fuel.

Now that's a common sense starting point!...Prior to forcing higher taxes look at the system and where/if it's needed...Good points...

2seaoat wrote:What is the failure of the business. I used mass transit as a kid. I would take the bus when I wanted to go somewhere. We were importing 800 billion dollars of foreign oil and are dollar was crashing, yet you think it is a bad idea to encourage people to use mass transit, to drive less, and to import less foreign oil. The gas tax will encourage people to look for more efficient vehicles....use mass transit...and conserve. I have been a firm believer in increasing the federal gas tax over the next 10 years to bring American gas pricing in line with the worlds pricing, and therefore encouraging high mileage vehicles and conservation.

I will go to the grocery store to pick up an item I have forgotten in a vehicle getting 17 mpg.....yet as the price of gas goes up, I will get another prius, be smarter in my trips in my vehicle, or I will utilize mass transit where available.........the tax is not going to magically change folks behavior, but it is a good start.

It is a failure in that it does not pay for itself. The people who are using it were not even given a stake in helping to fund the extra money needed to run the bus system. Why wasn't part of the additional money added to the fares that the current riders put forth a part of the solution? The people funding this are the people who are already overburdened by high gas prices. Four more cents might not be a lot to you, but to those buying a tank of gas or more per week, it can add up.

People aren't just going to start riding the bus more because they add 4 cents to the price of a gallon of gas for one simple reason- they are not traveling places where the use of the bus is convenient. ECAT doesn't help the guy in Molino driving to NAS Pensacola. It doesn't help get the guy from Escambia County into Santa Rosa who might work at Whiting Field. The ECAT system serves precious few and not even a substantial amount of the precious few.

PACEDOG#1 wrote:

2seaoat wrote:What is the failure of the business. I used mass transit as a kid. I would take the bus when I wanted to go somewhere. We were importing 800 billion dollars of foreign oil and are dollar was crashing, yet you think it is a bad idea to encourage people to use mass transit, to drive less, and to import less foreign oil. The gas tax will encourage people to look for more efficient vehicles....use mass transit...and conserve. I have been a firm believer in increasing the federal gas tax over the next 10 years to bring American gas pricing in line with the worlds pricing, and therefore encouraging high mileage vehicles and conservation.

I will go to the grocery store to pick up an item I have forgotten in a vehicle getting 17 mpg.....yet as the price of gas goes up, I will get another prius, be smarter in my trips in my vehicle, or I will utilize mass transit where available.........the tax is not going to magically change folks behavior, but it is a good start.

It is a failure in that it does not pay for itself. The people who are using it were not even given a stake in helping to fund the extra money needed to run the bus system. Why wasn't part of the additional money added to the fares that the current riders put forth a part of the solution? The people funding this are the people who are already overburdened by high gas prices. Four more cents might not be a lot to you, but to those buying a tank of gas or more per week, it can add up.

People aren't just going to start riding the bus more because they add 4 cents to the price of a gallon of gas for one simple reason- they are not traveling places where the use of the bus is convenient. ECAT doesn't help the guy in Molino driving to NAS Pensacola. It doesn't help get the guy from Escambia County into Santa Rosa who might work at Whiting Field. The ECAT system serves precious few and not even a substantial amount of the precious few.

But the 'guy in Molino' will be getting hit like the rest of us...paying for a service that we don't use!...Can't believe there are some that think this a a good move...

Looking at ECAT routes it appears to serve about 1/3 of the county. Why should someone in Beulah or Cantonment with no (or very limited) services pay a SUBSIDY for the obvious clients who are probably already receiving other entitlements? Our elected bozos are going to subsidize Floridians into third world status. Homeowners and auto insurance subsidies so a few can live on the beach and now bus service subsidies.

ECAT routes:

https://www.goecat.com/routes/_doc/fullmap-201208.pdf

Certainly there should be improvements in mass transit. When I go to chicago, I see these huge double connected buses packed with people. I see the elevated trains....packed with people.....I see cabs everywhere....and then there is me driving. When I park at NW hospital it costs $44 dollars, but they stamp my parking pass and I only have to pay $10. At the point it gets too crowded, too costly, and too much of a hassle....people will leave their cars parked and will use mass transit.

Now if the system is not efficient, they are late, they have stupid routes which do not serve the public.....I agree 100% to fix what is broken, but America subsidizes gas pricing and the automobile. In the late 50s I used public transportation, and the average house had one vehicle.....not the multiple vehicles we have now. If we start to eliminate the subsidies on oil and gas production, then I could understand lowering the same on mass transit. We need right now to be investing in mass transit, and we need to be forcing higher mpg standards......this idea of individuals driving around 10mpg vehicles is a choice which never made any economic sense with finite energy sources. I have no problem raising gas taxes and then supporting mass transit. Now if they raise gas taxes, and then with a slight of hand free up money to support another GOB project.....I agree that is wrong.

nochain wrote:Looking at ECAT routes it appears to serve about 1/3 of the county. Why should someone in Beulah or Cantonment with no (or very limited) services pay a SUBSIDY for the obvious clients who are probably already receiving other entitlements? Our elected bozos are going to subsidize Floridians into third world status. Homeowners and auto insurance subsidies so a few can live on the beach and now bus service subsidies.

ECAT routes:

https://www.goecat.com/routes/_doc/fullmap-201208.pdf

Did the BOCC even consider any options or just go into the meeting with raising taxes as a first and only option?...

2seaoat wrote:Certainly there should be improvements in mass transit. When I go to chicago, I see these huge double connected buses packed with people. I see the elevated trains....packed with people.....I see cabs everywhere....and then there is me driving. When I park at NW hospital it costs $44 dollars, but they stamp my parking pass and I only have to pay $10. At the point it gets too crowded, too costly, and too much of a hassle....people will leave their cars parked and will use mass transit.

Now if the system is not efficient, they are late, they have stupid routes which do not serve the public.....I agree 100% to fix what is broken, but America subsidizes gas pricing and the automobile. In the late 50s I used public transportation, and the average house had one vehicle.....not the multiple vehicles we have now. If we start to eliminate the subsidies on oil and gas production, then I could understand lowering the same on mass transit. We need right now to be investing in mass transit, and we need to be forcing higher mpg standards......this idea of individuals driving around 10mpg vehicles is a choice which never made any economic sense with finite energy sources. I have no problem raising gas taxes and then supporting mass transit. Now if they raise gas taxes, and then with a slight of hand free up money to support another GOB project.....I agree that is wrong.

Don't think a comparasion between Chicago and Pensacola is realistic...just because larger cities have good public transportation doesn't mean that it fits everwhere...

2seaoat wrote:wering the same on mass transit. We need right now to be investing in mass transit, and we need to be forcing higher mpg standards......this idea of individuals driving around 10mpg vehicles is a choice which never made any economic sense with finite energy sources. I have no problem raising gas taxes and then supporting mass transit. Now if they raise gas taxes, and then with a slight of hand free up money to support another GOB project.....I agree that is wrong.

One major problem with "mass transit" in areas like Escambia is the dispersed population and no centralized industrial or major business area where a large number of people commute daily. Mass transit works in large cities because folks are traveling to a central location. Community transportation might be more appropriate here and I know such programs already exist. There is a good concentration of taxis so access to some form of transport is not an issue. The issue is those choosing or forced to ride ECAT should pay their own freight just like I have to as a regular working stiff.

But the 'guy in Molino' will be getting hit like the rest of us...paying for a service that we don't use!...Can't believe there are some that think this a a good move...


I think that gas taxes which eliminate the subsidy we give to folks who drive autos is a long term good thing for America. When our pump prices are near world averages....not dollars below the same....we can begin operating efficiently and we can bring our costs in line to have a comparative advantage with other nations manufacturing. If we dump 800 billion a year down the rabbit hole of foreign oil imports.....that is bone headed stupid. A gas tax which supports public transportation and lowers total miles driven and gas consumption....that is good policy. So tell me why we need to subsidize gas consumption, but have a hissy fit if we subsidize mass transit which lowers gas consumption. We spend many times over with subsidies for ethanol, gas, and oil production than what we give mass transit. Get rid of all the subsidies, and start paying 6 buck a gallon gas....when that happens, you will be glad that there is a mass transit system.

2seaoat wrote:But the 'guy in Molino' will be getting hit like the rest of us...paying for a service that we don't use!...Can't believe there are some that think this a a good move...


I think that gas taxes which eliminate the subsidy we give to folks who drive autos is a long term good thing for America. When our pump prices are near world averages....not dollars below the same....we can begin operating efficiently and we can bring our costs in line to have a comparative advantage with other nations manufacturing. If we dump 800 billion a year down the rabbit hole of foreign oil imports.....that is bone headed stupid. A gas tax which supports public transportation and lowers total miles driven and gas consumption....that is good policy. So tell me why we need to subsidize gas consumption, but have a hissy fit if we subsidize mass transit which lowers gas consumption. We spend many times over with subsidies for ethanol, gas, and oil production than what we give mass transit. Get rid of all the subsidies, and start paying 6 buck a gallon gas....when that happens, you will be glad that there is a mass transit system.

OK....How many more will suddenly ride the buses rather than pay 4 more cents a gallon?....Further if your solution is $6 a gallon for gas to force is intelligent well then you're happy because that screwed up philosophy is now in charge of the nation...So this move will lower gas consumption too?...Lastly... since everyone is 'contributing' should all 'contributors' DEMAND a bus route to all work destinations?...This is a wrong move no matter how you attempt to spin...

Before long they'll be taxing the gas so high people will have to take the bus.

Before long they'll be taxing the gas so high people will have to take the bus.

Where is the outrage on the ethanol subsidy which lowers the price of gas at the pump? Where is the outrage of where a farmer who is making 350k a year income off his farm, gets a 40k subsidy from the government......yet when we try to have a viable mass transit system which can lower our fuel consumption and allow affordable transportation for all Americans we have a hissy fit over four cents.........I have a proposition for the folks in Northern Escambia County......lets get rid of the four cent tax and all farm subsidies and subsidies for ethanol, and the pump prices will go up by more than four cents, the folks on the north end will squeal like a pig going to slaughter, and some poor people who use mass transit will have fewer options......sounds like a smart path to me, but it will never happen...because the wealthy farm lobby will not get rid of their subsidies, and ADM the sponsor of Meet the Press has bought off its Politicians including the president, and so who will get the shaft.....yep....poor people waiting for a bus....trying to do the best they can with this crooked deck of cards where dealing off the bottom has become the rule.

54 million dollars of farm subsidy in Escambia County since 1995, and you want to complain about a few million dollars keeping a public transportation system serving poor people? When we start going after all subsidy.....I will be right there, but when we select millionaires to get subsidy, and think it is good policy to further diminish the ability of the poor to get to a job.....well I think that is called hypocrisy......and pretty bone chilling stupid hypocrisy.....either work to get rid of the real money drainers across the board, or at least have the descency to quit picking on poor people.

http://farm.ewg.org/region.php?fips=12033

I don't have a problem with public transportation, I've been in many ports and used them, most were in large cities and they had enough passengers to make the system work..
I think the +4cts is a big jump and would like to know the numbers.. like income from the tax and what they really need.. I just don't trust our gobs, I think they're a bunch of SOB's..

I agree. The jump to 4 cents is to cover other GOB projects and they are cleverly using poor people who ride the public transportation system to be the scapegoats. This probably could have been a two cent tax, but they are going to shift all the support from the general fund to the gas tax, and then they are going to free up money for their pet projects.....and we sit here arguing about folks who use the transportation system, when this move is really a backdoor method to give the GOB network everything they want.

Gosh, and to think right next door they spent 110 million on farm subsidies since 1995......heck people could get a free ride to work every day if these subsidies were ended.

http://farm.ewg.org/region.php?fips=12113

PACEDOG#1 wrote:It is a failure in that it does not pay for itself.

PACEDOG#1, are you suggesting that any government endeavor is a failure unless it generates its own revenue stream that covers its costs in total?

Being the Navy town that we are we do need the system for their use too..
It's Not just the poor that need it.. I just don't want to go poor payin more taxes than I need to.. Does anybody know the cost really needed for ecat and how much the new tax will rake in? Those numbers should be out there somewhere.