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The Spoiler Has Quit

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1The Spoiler Has Quit Empty The Spoiler Has Quit on 4/8/2020, 1:23 pm

gatorfan


Old Bernie has thrown in the towel. Should have done that 20 years ago.....guess he'll run out and buy another mansion now.

2The Spoiler Has Quit Empty Re: The Spoiler Has Quit on 4/8/2020, 3:30 pm

Floridatexan

Floridatexan
The Spoiler Has Quit Tenor

3The Spoiler Has Quit Empty Re: The Spoiler Has Quit on 4/8/2020, 4:47 pm

zsomething


And already a lot of Bernie's supporters, full of horseshit conspiracy theories about Biden and Democrats in general, are  working as hard as they can on Twitter to re-elect Trump.   The very definition of "useful idiots."  Some of it is probably Russian monkeywrenching, but I know some of those people and they're just sincere cultists.

Ironically, Bernie's legacy may  very well be that he was the one who killed off the Progressive movement.   He's sure done enough damage to it.   Glad he finally dropped out (after letting people line up in Wisconsin during a pandemic), but his damage is probably already baked in.

Biden gave him a gracious tribute that's better than he deserves, at least.

4The Spoiler Has Quit Empty Re: The Spoiler Has Quit on 4/8/2020, 5:14 pm

Floridatexan

Floridatexan
zsomething wrote:And already a lot of Bernie's supporters, full of horseshit conspiracy theories about Biden and Democrats in general, are  working as hard as they can on Twitter to re-elect Trump.   The very definition of "useful idiots."  Some of it is probably Russian monkeywrenching, but I know some of those people and they're just sincere cultists.

Ironically, Bernie's legacy may  very well be that he was the one who killed off the Progressive movement.   He's sure done enough damage to it.   Glad he finally dropped out (after letting people line up in Wisconsin during a pandemic), but his damage is probably already baked in.

Biden gave him a gracious tribute that's better than he deserves, at least.

I promise you that a large number of the "Berniebots" are either Republican or Russian trolls. I still don't understand your disdain for Bernie. He didn't cause the "loss" in 2016 and he's done a world of good for Democrats. I really was reluctant to vote for Hillary, and not because of the constant attacks on her, which were largely hogwash, but because she didn't convince me that she represented my interests. I still voted for her, and I still respect her for all her years of service.

5The Spoiler Has Quit Empty Re: The Spoiler Has Quit on 4/8/2020, 10:30 pm

zsomething


Floridatexan wrote:

I promise you that a large number of the "Berniebots" are either Republican or Russian trolls.


That's likely true. Republicans have been pushing Bernie, just like they did last time. And I don't think many people who believe what Bernie believes would sit around and let Trump get a second term. Some are stupid and willful brats, but most know that even if Biden's not their favorite, he'll get them a lot closer to what Bernie would have wanted than Trump will. A few morons think that losing elections will make the Democratic party bow to their will in the future, but those people are so frickin' stupid they've got to be a small minority. So, yeah, most of that is likely Russian and GOP ratfucking instead of real supporters. I think a lot of Bernie's fervent "support" online never were planning to actually vote for Bernie, anyway. A lot of it has been a chaos campaign.


 I still don't understand your disdain for Bernie.

I could write a book on it... Smile I've tried to explain it before, but maybe I didn't do a good job, so I'll try again... and I'll try to be concise, although we all know that's not my long suit. Smile

I just think the guy is total snake-oil. Bernie's got as big a narcissist ego as Trump, it's just not quite as malignant (Trump is a prodigy in that case, he's like a Jeffrey Dahmer or Ed Gein is to killers... it's rare to see anyone that extreme). He's enchanted by getting a following for the first time in his life and it's gone to his head... and not in a good way. And I don't really understand why he enchants people, because he does nothing but talk, and brushes aside the need for actual plans to back it up.

Bernie has talked and talked and talked but seldom actually done anything. I've never seen anyone get more credit for just talking when they have practically no accomplishments. Bernie promises HUGE things, but he's been in government for decades and has never even managed to accomplish little things. Naming post offices are about the only bills he's ever gotten through. He doesn't even get CLOSE to passing most things in the Senate, because he has NO consensus-building skills... and consensus-building skills are really ALL being an effective Senator is about. So I resent people revering him like he's this savior when he has done nothing to earn it. You don't have to be president to get things passed. He could have been passing progressive legislation if he was really effective. But he isn't.
He's managed to do nothing with the power he's been given. He preaches things, but when it's nut-cutting time, he bows to the NRA, he gets Vermont's toxic waste dumped on communities of color, etc. He's a SCAM.

And, worse than that, he stops people who COULD accomplish the things he says he wants. There was someone wanting most of the same goals but had some actual plans (perhaps not all workable, but at least detailed and possible) -- that was Elizabeth Warren. And who were the people who attacked her the hardest and did the most to destroy her campaign? Bernie's followers. Not all of 'em, but there IS a hardcore cult in there who are destructive as hell, and he does nothing to discourage them. They like to talk about his goals (in very limited terms -- they've got about a See'N'Say's worth of dialogue to describe it -- "corporate" this and "establishment" that -- it's super-creepy-cultish) but the truth is they seem to neither truly care about or even understand his goals... they're just a cult built around a quirky guy they think is a Larry David character. They bond with each other like it's some "family" built around believing in this guy... it doesn't seem sincerely political, just social-bonding. They don't seem to really want to stop Trump, just boost their fan-club.

Not only is Bernie one of the least-accomplished (and therefore least progressive because it ain't really progressive unless it passes and becomes a law -- effectiveness is everything) senators, he slams the people who actually DO get things done. Bernie slams the ACA because it's not what he'd do... but what he wants done doesn't exist, so, which is better? Which got more people health care -- the ACA, or the dream-that-never-happens? I cannot stand a damn sideline quarterback, sniping people who actually make progress because it's not as good as something they'd like but have shown no ability to get done. Bernie doesn't just make Trump his enemy -- he makes the whole party his enemy. That's what he teaches his following. So Bernie not only doesn't accomplish anything... he attacks those who do. That is an asshole.

So, long as that was, that's kind of a short form, but that's why I hate the sonofabitch. Not only does he get credit for things he hasn't done, he inspires hatred for those who actually do get progress for us. There's no reason to like him.

Like I said, I'd still have voted for him if he'd been the nominee, because as little regard as I have for Bernie, he's still better than Trump. But we dodged a bullet not having this slug as our candidate. Though his influence will probably damage us yet. He's got his followers thinking Biden is a racist/rapist/etc. and that's all bullshit.


 
He didn't cause the "loss" in 2016

Yes he did. Absolutely he did. Over three swing-states a total of 77,000 people voted for Jill Stein... and that's how many Hillary lost by in those states. You really gonna tell me those Stein voters -- and the countless more disgruntled Bernie supporters who decided not to vote at all -- didn't swing the results of the election? That is totally on Bernie. There is NO WAY Jill Stein had that much support on her own. And I well remember Bernie supporters bragging they were going to waste their vote on her, and I remember far more saying they wouldn't vote at all.

Bernie is the reason we got Trump once. It remains to be seen if he'll get us Trump twice... but his influence is working against us, and not for us.

and he's done a world of good for Democrats.


No, he hasn't. He's divided us far more than anything else. He has consistently said that Democrats are his enemy -- he talks about that as much as he does Trump. He teaches his followers that the "Democratic establishment" (which apparently even Elizabeth Warren is considered to be a part of) is the enemy.

Bernie isn't even a Democrat until it serves him to be one. He only claims to be a Democrat to get access to mailing lists and debates.

He isn't an asset. I hope he's dead by next election cycle, because if he isn't, ridiculous as it is, his ego will send him out there at 84 years old. And I'll contribute to any Democrat who wants to run against him in a primary for Vermont senate. The guy's poisonous and we're all better off if he's gone.


I really was reluctant to vote for Hillary, and not because of the constant attacks on her, which were largely hogwash, but because she didn't convince me that she represented my interests.  I still voted for her, and I still respect her for all her years of service.

But you're smart. You know better than to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. You don't have to like Hillary to know that most of the stuff against her was hogwash, and that even if you weren't a big fan of hers, she'd get you more of what you want than Trump would. That's really all it takes. People don't have to love Biden, either, to see the obvious -- he'd not only be a LOT more progressive than Trump would be, but getting Trump out is as important as whoever we put in.

Honestly, I'd vote for fucking Mitt Romney if he was the only alternative to Trump. I'd vote for fucking Dubya over Trump. Trump is a psychopathic disaster.

Now, I actually like Biden. I don't think he's perfect, but he's a good guy, and he'll pick a good cabinet. His decisions will be far better than Trump. It's not a hard choice.

Anyway, you know Biden's a better choice than Trump, even if you'd rather have had Bernie or someone else. You're not one of the Bernie supporters I have a problem with -- most of them are sane and understand the situation. It's just the crazed dead-enders who are going to going to be a problem.

6The Spoiler Has Quit Empty Re: The Spoiler Has Quit on 4/8/2020, 10:31 pm

Sal

Sal
From someone who has been far from a Bernie supporter;

Thank you, Senator Sanders.

7The Spoiler Has Quit Empty Re: The Spoiler Has Quit on 4/9/2020, 1:28 am

RealLindaL


For zsomething, who cuts right to the chase with impeccable logic and facts:

cheers    cheers   cheers   cheers    cheers    cheers    cheers



(Oh, except I don't wish anyone dead, except maybe for Trump.  Second thought, scratch the "maybe.")

8The Spoiler Has Quit Empty Re: The Spoiler Has Quit on 4/9/2020, 12:38 pm

zsomething


This seems like it might be useful. It's from an interview with Fran Lebowitz.

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/the-new-yorker-interview/fran-lebowitz-is-never-leaving-new-york



What are your thoughts on how the primary has turned out?

From the beginning, I was very depressed. I was quite an ardent supporter of Elizabeth Warren. It’s very unusual to have such a good candidate. I realized that she’s a woman and that was going to be a bad thing for her, as it is for all of us. Also, that she was the smartest, and that has always been something that Americans cannot stand. So a smart woman, I thought, doesn’t really have much of a chance.

But I am a person who loathes Bernie Sanders. Yes, I’d rather have had him be the President than Trump. There’s no one I wouldn’t rather have be the President than Donald Trump. But Bernie Sanders would not be a good President.

Do you think the pandemic has given more credence to his argument for Medicare for All?

Medicare for All—which used to be called socialized medicine—is something that, of course, can be done. They have it all over Europe. Can it be done quickly in this country? No. But it’s an absurd idea that hospitals should be businesses. People say, “If you love your health insurance”—who is that? Who loves their health insurance? No one really wants health insurance. People want health care. It’s, like, no one wants car insurance. They want a car.

I think the popularity of Bernie Sanders just has to do with his shouting, which people seem to mistake for some sort of intellectual energy. It drives me crazy. And most of the things he says should be free, I agree with him. Yes! Public colleges should be free. They were, up until the late seventies, in New York. Someone has to explain: colleges were free, but they were paid for by taxes. Take my taxes and please pay for free colleges. Please do not take my taxes and give it to Carnival Cruise Line.


This sounds like Bernie Sanders’s platform, though.


I agree with him. I agree with these ideas. But if you’re asking me if he would be a good President—he’s not even a good senator! He just yells. Also, I’ve always thought, What kind of person leaves New York when they’re eighteen? People should come to New York when they’re eighteen. And many of the things that are wrong with New York that prevent many people from coming—which is how psychotically expensive it’s become—should be changed. He’s seventy-eight, right? That’s the age you should go to Vermont. New York’s a very hard place to live, and I understand if, by the time people are seventy-eight, they can’t take it anymore. Go to Vermont, and, when you get there, take an eighteen-year-old and put them on a bus and send them to New York.

It’s, like, the Bernie Sanders Exchange Program.

Right. And if the eighteen-year-old says, “Who can afford to live in New York?” Well, you, because we’re going to change everything for you. I have always really disliked Joe Biden, mainly because of the Anita Hill hearings, which I did not have to be reminded of during the Kavanaugh hearings. I remembered it very well and I was appalled. And because he turned Delaware into a cesspool of usury. But I was so happy when he started winning. And that to me was sad. I thought, This is what it’s come to. You’re happy that Joe Biden is winning.

As someone with a long history of loathing Michael Bloomberg, what do you make of his Presidential campaign now that it’s over?

I never thought Michael Bloomberg had a single chance of getting the nomination. First of all, Fran, like Bernie, doesn’t think anyone should have fifty-eight billion dollars. It is a stupid amount of money for a person to have, and it should be taken away in taxes. Whenever they say, “He earned it”—no one earns a billion dollars. You earn fifteen dollars an hour. “Earn” means work. You steal that kind of money. It’s chicanery. It’s ridiculous.

Did you take any pleasure in seeing that the only place he won was American Samoa?

I did. I’m not as nice a person as you might imagine. I had huge arguments with friends of mine who said, “Don’t you think he’d be better than Donald Trump?” And I kept saying, “Do I think it would be better for the country to have Donald Trump be the President again or to have the country watch someone buy a Presidential election?” I think that would be equally destructive for the country, and I’m glad that he didn’t get it.

Speaking of former New York mayors, what happened to Giuliani? Was he always this insane?

I don’t think he was always this crazy, but it was always a sham. This idea that Giuliani was some sort of great mayor is absurd. Giuliani was the first person I remember who started this kind of poisonous politics of nostalgia, which is really just racism, at its core. When Giuliani was running for mayor for the first time, I kept saying to people, “Are you watching these ads of Giuliani’s, which are basically saying, ‘Vote for me and it’ll be 1950 again’?” I hated him as a mayor. In my entire time I’ve lived here, I’ve only liked two mayors, [John] Lindsay and [David] Dinkins.

But, in a way, what’s happening to Cuomo is somewhat like what happened to Giuliani. On September 11th, when Giuliani became “America’s Mayor,” the reason for that was that the President was hiding. We now have Cuomo, who’s not a sham like Giuliani, and the President is not hiding, but the President is totally incompetent. I guarantee you that Trump is seething at the attention Cuomo’s getting.

9The Spoiler Has Quit Empty Re: The Spoiler Has Quit on 4/9/2020, 8:08 pm

Telstar

Telstar




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