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Pensacola Discussion Forum » Politics » A question for seaoat about racism

A question for seaoat about racism

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Sal
Hospital Bob
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Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

Today the Supreme Court upheld a lower court decision which struck down the North Carolina law which required voters to provide a photo ID.  

The lower court struck down the law saying it was designed to keep African Americans from voting.

The question is,  why is it racism to want all voters to properly identify themselves?  
When what seems like the actual racism to me is to take the position that African Americans are not capable of properly identifying themselves when voting.

Sal

Sal

Voter ID laws inordinately suppress the vote of impoverished, inner-city inhabitating, minorities BY DESIGN.

More than one Republican has admitted this fact publicly.

These measures are meant to suppress perfectly valid votes under the guise of addressing a problem that does not exist.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

Sal wrote:Voter ID laws inordinately suppress the vote of impoverished, inner-city inhabitating, minorities BY DESIGN.

More than one Republican has admitted this fact publicly.

These measures are meant to suppress perfectly valid votes under the guise of addressing a problem that does not exist.

Then why does every state in the country require a photo ID to purchase alcoholic beverages?  According to your same reasoning,  there should be no need for that either. Let's just put everybody on the honor system and take their word for it.

Sal

Sal

Because the right to buy beer is not enshrined in the Constitution.

The integrity of our democracy does not depend upon your ability to buy beer, it depends on the ability of qualified citizens to vote.

Jebus Crist on a pogo stick, Bob ... this is one dumb thread.

2seaoat



Like all rights in our constitutional system, few are absolute. Each citizen under our constitution has a right to vote. Jim Crow after the Civil War had a series of systematic roadblocks to certain citizens voting. Some were subtle with simple threats, others were De Jure where a citizen had to take a literacy test to vote, or pay a poll tax. Now the critical element of a constitutional analysis of a Voter ID law is that when dealing with a fundamental right, under the equal protection clause the State must show a compelling state interest to impose a restriction. A rational basis which sounds logical to you is unsufficent under the constitutional test, and all the evidence shows clearly that there is no compelling state interest which requires a photo id.

I voted for almost fifty years without showing a photo ID. I had to provide certain proof when registering, and it is at that time we should vet a voter when registering. This does not take the right away from the voter. The election is not that day. However, if I show up without an ID, my right to vote is taken away. If we want to amend the Constitution and require a photo ID then go for it, but there was no requirement of a photo ID by our founding fathers, and there is nothing in the constitution which gives the right to a state government to exclude voters on election day who are citizens and properly registered. It is simple, but the idea that the history of exclusion has nothing to do with voter ID......well the courts are ruling consistently that the intent to exclude is clear.

Guest


Guest

Amendment XV Section 1. "The right of CITIZENS of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude."

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

Sal wrote:Because the right to buy beer is not enshrined in the Constitution.

The integrity of our democracy does not depend upon your ability to buy beer, it depends on the ability of qualified citizens to vote.

Jebus Crist on a pogo stick, Bob ... this is one dumb thread.

Well then shit sherlock,  now you're willing to tolerate fraud with something that's so important that it's enshrined in the Constitution,  but not with buying a sixpack.  lol

What's dumb is your inability to question ANYTHING that's been handed down by the sacrosanct gods of the Democrat Party.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

Of course there's absolutely no question that republicans will try to keep blacks from voting because blacks vote democrat.
Exactly the same as there's absolutely no question that democrats will try to make it easier for blacks to vote, for the same reason, blacks vote democrat.
Neither perspective has any high minded motive. It's only about winning elections.

That's completely aside from the point I'm making.

2seaoat



Well then shit sherlock, now you're willing to tolerate fraud with something that's so important that it's enshrined in the Constitution, but not with buying a sixpack. lol

What's dumb is your inability to question ANYTHING that's been handed down by the sacrosanct gods of the Democrat Party.

I mean this sincerely Bob, please take the time to take a college course on constitutional law. I was taught this in my junior year in high school, and of course expanded on the same in college and graduate school, but when you go into a store to buy a six pack, you have no right to buy that six pack. It is not a fundamental right guaranteed by our constitution, and therefore government can using the rational basis test make classifications which are simply rational. Like underage drinking is bad for society. There is no need for the state to prove a compelling state interest in the classification system.

Also, folks will not challenge a rigorous vetting on voter registration, but it is on election day and the denial of access to that fundamental right without recourse which runs aground in our constitutional system.

Sal

Sal

Bob wrote:Of course there's absolutely no question that republicans will try to keep blacks from voting because blacks vote democrat.
Exactly the same as there's absolutely no question that democrats will try to make it easier for blacks to vote,  for the same reason,  blacks vote democrat.
Neither perspective has any high minded motive.  It's only about winning elections.

That's completely aside from the point I'm making.  

So, you admit that Democrats seek to have all eligible minority votes counted, and that Republicans seek to unconstitutionally disenfranchise minorities ...

... and, you can't determine where the racism lies??

But, you're making a point ....

.... OK, Bob.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

Sal wrote:
Bob wrote:Of course there's absolutely no question that republicans will try to keep blacks from voting because blacks vote democrat.
Exactly the same as there's absolutely no question that democrats will try to make it easier for blacks to vote,  for the same reason,  blacks vote democrat.
Neither perspective has any high minded motive.  It's only about winning elections.

That's completely aside from the point I'm making.  


So, you admit that Democrats seek to have all eligible minority votes counted, and that Republicans seek to unconstitutionally disenfranchise minorities ...

... and, you can't determine where the racism lies??

But, you're making a point ....

.... OK, Bob.

No the point went completely over your head.

The democrats seek to have ALL minority votes counted period.  They couldn't care less if they're eligible or not.  

God are you brainwashed. Or maybe just naive.

Sal

Sal

Then provide the evidence of widespread voter fraud.

Please proceed, governor.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

Sal wrote:Then provide the evidence of widespread voter fraud.

Please proceed, governor.

That's akin to me arguing that people routinely cheat on their taxes.
And then you responding by telling me "then provide the evidence". lol

I don't have access to tax returns or voter rolls either one. But I do know human nature. And when it's made easy to do, a given portion of human beings will always cheat on anything. Especially in the case of voting when a political party (any political party) benefits from helping them to do it.

Now we have the answer. Moreso than brainwashing, you're just naive.

Sal

Sal

People are charged and convicted for cheating on their taxes by the thousands.

Now, show me the evidence of wide-spread voter fraud.

There is none.

The penalty for the crime is real and the benefit nonexistent.

Use your cranium for something other than a hat rack.

2seaoat



Now we have the answer. Moreso than brainwashing, you're just naive.


No Bob the only one naive on this thread is you. The empirical studies show that voter fraud is non existent to have any statistical effect on an election. In the state of Iowa, the Republican SOS ran under the platform that he would prosecute every voter id fraud in the state. Almost four million ballots and they found six violations of voter ID. Three felons who used false ID, a woman who voted a mail in ballot for her daughter off to college, and two other false ids........this was a gung ho Republican who determined voter id fraud was non existent......this confirms the many studies saying the same. Why would any sane person risk a felony to vote......how naive does a person have to be to think voting for Donald Trump I will risk a felony by showing the ID Dumb Dixiecrat.....will not happen.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

If you sincerely believe that anytime 4 million peeps have voted and only 6 of the 4 million cheated,  then let me interest you in some prime real estate I own not far from Disney World.  And just especially for you,  I'll throw in the Garcon Point Bridge at no extra charge.

Floridatexan

Floridatexan

2seaoat wrote:Like all rights in our constitutional system, few are absolute.  Each citizen under our constitution has a right to vote.  Jim Crow after the Civil War had a series of systematic roadblocks to certain citizens voting.   Some were subtle with simple threats, others were De Jure where a citizen had to take a literacy test to vote, or pay a poll tax.   Now the critical element of a constitutional analysis of a Voter ID law is that when dealing with a fundamental right, under the equal protection clause the State must show a compelling state interest to impose a restriction.   A rational basis which sounds logical to you is unsufficent under the constitutional test, and all the evidence shows clearly that there is no compelling state interest which requires a photo id.  

I voted for almost fifty years without showing a photo ID.   I had to provide certain proof when registering, and it is at that time we should vet a voter when registering.   This does not take the right away from the voter.   The election is not that day.   However, if I show up without an ID, my right to vote is taken away.   If we want to amend the Constitution and require a photo ID then go for it, but there was no requirement of a photo ID by our founding fathers, and there is nothing in the constitution which gives the right to a state government to exclude voters on election day who are citizens and properly registered.   It is simple, but the idea that the history of exclusion has nothing to do with voter ID......well the courts are ruling consistently that the intent to exclude is clear.

I believe this last Florida vote was the first time they've scanned my driver's license. I felt like I was being stopped for a moving violation..."Would you take it out of your wallet, please?" How did this happen?

Guest


Guest

At my polling location I was told I no would no longer need my voter registration card. They requested my driver's license and scanned it. I associated the scanning with the fact my voter registration and license was obtained in the same DMV office. But I still find it odd.

On the other hand, no one is denied the ability to vote. If you do not have a Florida driver's license then you are given a "provisional" ballot and you have until close of business the next day to provide and ID.

2seaoat



you have until close of business the next day to provide and ID.

And if you do not have your ID.......your absolute right as a citizen to vote is taken. It is not by accident that these laws suddenly appear. The courts have unanimously struck them down because the intent is clear...one more obstacle to block those who are deemed to be inferior and who have no equal standing in our society......now for all these conservatives who believe in strict construction of our constitution......please show me where in the constitution it requires an ID to vote?

The answer is simple. When registering to vote gather information at that time prior to issuing a voter registration card. If you want to snap a photo of the citizen, and print the photo on the card fine, but the card should not be the necessary requirement, rather the digital image can sit in a database where when you come in and tell them your name and address they can look at the voter registration roll and see the citizens name. If somebody suspects a felony is being committed they can still allow the voter to vote and file a complaint with the states attorney...............there would be a handful of people nationwide, but all citizens would not have their votes stolen on election day by a very clever plan to deny access to the polls.

Guest


Guest

NEWS FLASH: If you don't have an id you "have no equal standing in our society".

Get a clue comrade. They're even free... should we pay people to get an id?

2seaoat



NEWS FLASH: If you don't have an id you "have no equal standing in our society".

Get a clue comrade. They're even free... should we pay people to get an id?


Here is a clue.......everybody votes who is on the voter registration rolls, and if you suspect a person has committed a felony, file a criminal complaint, but do not on election day pretend that taking the right to vote away from a citizen is anything other than what the courts have unanimously agreed........an unnecessary obstacle to a citizens right to vote.

Again, I will type this slowly......the courts have always affirmed the registration process and collecting information. They just do not want somebody next year saying......hey bring in a utility bill to vote.......they are free........but if you do not have a utility bill......you have 24 hours to have your vote counted......pleaseeeeeeeeee nobody is fooled when it was a literacy test......nobody was fooled when it was a poll tax.....in one case the literacy test was free, in the second you paid to vote, so the distinction was never what was free, rather unconstitutional obstructions on election day to a citizen having their vote counted.......as the Republican State House member in Pennsylvania so proudly announced, we passed voter ID law, and Romney will win the state.......there is no confusion, and the courts reflect that there is no confusion.

Floridatexan

Floridatexan

SheWrites wrote:At my polling location I was told I no would no longer need my voter registration card.  They requested my driver's license and scanned it.  I associated the scanning with the fact my voter registration and license was obtained in the same DMV office.  But I still find it odd.  

On the other hand, no one is denied the ability to vote.  If you do not have a Florida driver's license then you are given a "provisional" ballot and you have until close of business the next day to provide and ID.


I've been voting in the same precinct for the past 35 years. I obtained my original voter ID at the registration office...not at the DMV...and each year I get a new one in the mail. If you've been to a local DMV lately, you know the wait times can be excruciatingly long and now require multiple ID's, including a birth certificate, SS card, 2 proofs of residency...

http://www.dmvflorida.org/drivers-license-identification.shtml

Suppose you just moved from another state, or even within the state, or you're a college student, or you don't drive...or you're a recent immigrant from another country, or you've moved in with roommates and have no bills in your name.

Then there's the cost:

https://www.flhsmv.gov/fees/

DRIVER LICENSE FEES
Original Class E (includes Learner’s license) $48.00
Original/Renewal Commercial Driver License $75.00
Original School Board Commercial Driver License $48.00
Renewal Class E $48.00
Tax Collector Service Fee (This fee applies to all driver license transactions in tax collector offices) $6.25
Renewal School Board Commercial Driver License $48.00
Replacement license $25.00
Late Fee $15.00
Endorsements $7.00
Knowledge retest $10.00
Skill retest $20.00
Identification Cards (Original, Renewal & Replacement) $25.00
Administrative Fee for alcohol and drug related offenses $130.00
D-6 Suspension - DHSMV $60.00
Disqualification $75.00
Revocations (additional administrative fee shown above required if alcohol or drug related) $75.00
Suspensions (additional administrative fee shown above required if alcohol or drug related) $45.00
Child Support Suspension $60.00
Worthless Check Suspension $55.00
Filing Fee for hardship hearing $12.00
Filing Fee for Formal/Informal review $25.00
DUI program fee (assessed by the program) $15.00
Interlock Fee (assessed by the vendor) $12.00

**********

Provisional ballot? Think again.

https://electionsmith.wordpress.com/2012/02/15/think-your-provisional-ballot-in-florida-counts-think-again/

In the 2008 general election, Florida voters cast some 35,635 provisional ballots on Election Day. That’s but a fraction of the more than 8.3 million ballots cast in the election, but in close elections, local, state House and Senate, or even presidential, they could determine the outcome an election.

But unlike regular ballots cast by voters, provisional ballots–despite what we’re told–often don’t count. In fact, in the 2008 general election, less than half of all provisional ballots cast were actually deemed to be valid. Days after the polls closed on Tuesday, November 4, 2008, and long after the unofficial results were posted by the Secretary of State and broadcast by the media, local three-member canvassing boards in the state’s 67 counties opened thousands of envelopes containing provisional ballots and began to tabulate them.

Whether they count, is another question altogether. Of the 35,635 provisional ballots cast in the 2008 general election, local canvassing boards validated only 17,312, or less than 50%.

The dirty little secret in the Sunshine State is that provisional ballots often don’t count. Or at least they don’t count as frequently in some counties as in others. There are innumerable reasons for the disparity, but the disparity exists. For whatever reason, provisional ballots cast by registered voters don’t have an equal shot of being accepted by local canvassing boards. The assault on voting rights by the Florida legislature in 2011, with the passage of HB1355, will likely increase the proportion of provisional ballots cast in the 2012 general election, and could very well lead to an even lower likelihood that provisional ballots will be validated.

In the 2008 general election there was a tremendous amount of variation across the state’s 67 counties regarding the number of provisional ballots cast and the percentage that were actually added to the final tabulation. In six counties, all of them largely rural, all of the provisional ballots cast (a total of 54) were deemed to be valid by the county canvasing boards (Baker (0/0); Dixie (11/11); Hamilton (12/12); Holmes (13/13); Lafayette (3/3); and Suwannee (15/15)).

Other counties, as this Provisional Ballots Chart reveals, also had high percentages of validated provisional ballots. For example, over 82 percent of the 731 provisional ballots cast in St. Johns County, 72 percent of the 411 provisional ballots cast in Pasco County, and nearly 60 percent of the 4,659 provisional ballots cast in Hillsborough (a Section 5 Voting Right Act county) were added to the total vote.

This 2008 Provisional Ballot Plot, crafted by my collaborator, Dartmouth University Professor Michael Herron, helps the visualization of where provisional ballots were cast in Florida in the 2008 general election. The proportion of the total votes cast in each county that were provisional ballot runs along the horizontal axis, and the percentage of provisional ballots cast in each county that were validated by the 67 county canvassing boards runs up the vertical axis. The size of the dot is proportional to the total number of provisional ballots cast, as distributed across the 67 counties.

There are several outliers, but two are pretty dramatic: Broward County, with its paltry acceptance rate of cast provisional ballots, and Osceola County, with its exceptionally high proportion of provisional ballots cast.

As I’ve written elsewhere with Dr. Herron, the rate of provisional ballots, the acceptance rate of provisional ballots, and the variation across counties should all be of grave concern as we head into the 2012 general election.

In the coming months, we’ll be investigating why there might be so much variation in the casting and counting of provisional ballots in Florida. I suspect it’s quite likely that these clear disparities across Florida’s 67 counties are not out of the ordinary when it comes to voting provisional ballots in other states.

**********

Now add to that the legal battles over Florida redistricting in 2010...the questionable voter purges, restricting early voting, voter intimidation at the polls, etc.

https://ballotpedia.org/Redistricting_in_Florida

A question for seaoat about racism AnderN20141014_low



Guest


Guest

2seaoat wrote:you have until close of business the next day to provide and ID.

And if you do not have your ID.......your absolute right as a citizen to vote is taken.   It is not by accident that these laws suddenly appear.   The courts have unanimously struck them down because the intent is clear...one more obstacle to block those who are deemed to be inferior and who have no equal standing in our society......now for all these conservatives who believe in strict construction of our constitution......please show me where in the constitution it requires an ID to vote?

The answer is simple.   When registering to vote gather information at that time prior to issuing a voter registration card.   If you want to snap a photo of the citizen, and print the photo on the card fine, but the card should not be the necessary requirement, rather the digital image can sit in a database where when you come in and tell them your name and address they can look at the voter registration roll and see the citizens name.   If somebody suspects a felony is being committed they can still allow the voter to vote and file a complaint with the states attorney...............there would be a handful of people nationwide, but all citizens would not have their votes stolen on election day by a very clever plan to deny access to the polls.

Now you're switching it to suspecting a criminal? Lol... I stopped there... you aren't serious. Play by yourself.

Floridatexan

Floridatexan

Floridatexan wrote:
SheWrites wrote:At my polling location I was told I no would no longer need my voter registration card.  They requested my driver's license and scanned it.  I associated the scanning with the fact my voter registration and license was obtained in the same DMV office.  But I still find it odd.  

On the other hand, no one is denied the ability to vote.  If you do not have a Florida driver's license then you are given a "provisional" ballot and you have until close of business the next day to provide and ID.


I've been voting in the same precinct for the past 35 years.  I obtained my original voter ID at the registration office...not at the DMV...and each year I get a new one in the mail.  If you've been to a local DMV lately, you know the wait times can be excruciatingly long and now require multiple ID's, including a birth certificate, SS card, 2 proofs of residency...

http://www.dmvflorida.org/drivers-license-identification.shtml

Suppose you just moved from another state, or even within the state, or you're a college student, or you don't drive...or you're a recent immigrant from another country, or you've moved in with roommates and have no bills in your name.  

Then there's the cost:

https://www.flhsmv.gov/fees/

DRIVER LICENSE FEES
Original Class E (includes Learner’s license) $48.00
Original/Renewal Commercial Driver License $75.00
Original School Board Commercial Driver License $48.00
Renewal Class E $48.00
Tax Collector Service Fee (This fee applies to all driver license transactions in tax collector offices) $6.25
Renewal School Board Commercial Driver License $48.00
Replacement license $25.00
Late Fee $15.00
Endorsements $7.00
Knowledge retest $10.00
Skill retest $20.00
Identification Cards (Original, Renewal & Replacement) $25.00
Administrative Fee for alcohol and drug related offenses $130.00
D-6 Suspension - DHSMV $60.00
Disqualification $75.00
Revocations (additional administrative fee shown above required if alcohol or drug related) $75.00
Suspensions (additional administrative fee shown above required if alcohol or drug related) $45.00
Child Support Suspension $60.00
Worthless Check Suspension $55.00
Filing Fee for hardship hearing $12.00
Filing Fee for Formal/Informal review $25.00
DUI program fee (assessed by the program) $15.00
Interlock Fee (assessed by the vendor) $12.00

**********

Provisional ballot?  Think again.

https://electionsmith.wordpress.com/2012/02/15/think-your-provisional-ballot-in-florida-counts-think-again/

In the 2008 general election, Florida voters cast some 35,635 provisional ballots on Election Day.  That’s but a fraction of the more than 8.3 million ballots cast in the election, but in close elections, local, state House and Senate, or even presidential, they could determine the outcome an election.

But unlike regular ballots cast by voters, provisional ballots–despite what we’re told–often don’t count.  In fact, in the 2008 general election, less than half of all provisional ballots cast were actually deemed to be valid.  Days after the polls closed on Tuesday, November 4, 2008, and long after the unofficial results were posted by the Secretary of State and broadcast by the media, local three-member canvassing boards in the state’s 67 counties opened thousands of envelopes containing provisional ballots and began to tabulate them.

Whether they count, is another question altogether.  Of the 35,635 provisional ballots cast in the 2008 general election, local canvassing boards validated only 17,312, or less than 50%.

The dirty little secret in the Sunshine State is that provisional ballots often don’t count. Or at least they don’t count as frequently in some counties as in others. There are innumerable reasons for the disparity, but the disparity exists. For whatever reason, provisional ballots cast by registered voters don’t have an equal shot of being accepted by local canvassing boards. The assault on voting rights by the Florida legislature in 2011, with the passage of HB1355, will likely increase the proportion of provisional ballots cast in the 2012 general election, and could very well lead to an even lower likelihood that provisional ballots will be validated.

In the 2008 general election there was a tremendous amount of variation across the state’s 67 counties regarding the number of provisional ballots cast and the percentage that were actually added to the final tabulation.  In six counties, all of them largely rural, all of the provisional ballots cast (a total of 54) were deemed to be valid by the county canvasing boards (Baker (0/0); Dixie (11/11); Hamilton (12/12); Holmes (13/13); Lafayette (3/3); and Suwannee (15/15)).

Other counties, as this Provisional Ballots Chart reveals, also had high percentages of validated provisional ballots.  For example, over 82 percent of the 731 provisional ballots cast in St. Johns County, 72 percent of the 411 provisional ballots cast in Pasco County, and nearly 60 percent of the 4,659 provisional ballots cast in Hillsborough (a Section 5 Voting Right Act county) were added to the total vote.

This 2008 Provisional Ballot Plot, crafted by my collaborator, Dartmouth University Professor Michael Herron, helps the visualization of where provisional ballots were cast in Florida in the 2008 general election. The proportion of the total votes cast in each county that were provisional ballot runs along the horizontal axis, and the percentage of provisional ballots cast in each county that were validated by the 67 county canvassing boards runs up the vertical axis. The size of the dot is proportional to the total number of provisional ballots cast, as distributed across the 67 counties.

There are several outliers, but two are pretty dramatic: Broward County, with its paltry acceptance rate of cast provisional ballots, and Osceola County, with its exceptionally high proportion of provisional ballots cast.

As I’ve written elsewhere with Dr. Herron, the rate of provisional ballots, the acceptance rate of provisional ballots, and the variation across counties should all be of grave concern as we head into the 2012 general election.

In the coming months, we’ll be investigating why there might be so much variation in the casting and counting of provisional ballots in Florida.  I suspect it’s quite likely that these clear disparities across Florida’s 67 counties are not out of the ordinary when it comes to voting provisional ballots in other states.

**********

Now add to that the legal battles over Florida redistricting in 2010...the questionable voter purges, restricting early voting, voter intimidation at the polls, etc.  

https://ballotpedia.org/Redistricting_in_Florida

A question for seaoat about racism AnderN20141014_low



dumpcare



The last time I voted at a polling place many years ago they asked for ID and they said that was to prove I lived in that precinct. I have voted now many years by abenstee with no proof of ID.

I lean very left but in this day and age I see no reason that someone cannot have some kind of ID to prove who they are. I have no problem with anyone having to show their ID.

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