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2 Re: Ross Perot was the smartest man in the room... 5/27/2014, 2:04 am
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*****SAD SMILE*****
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4 Re: Ross Perot was the smartest man in the room... 5/27/2014, 8:27 am
Hospital Bob
See, since we aren't in love with republicans and sean patrick hannity and rush hudson Limbaugh, markle says that makes us all progressives, liberals, muslims and commies. Merkle even says we "believe every word that comes out of barrack hussein obama's mouth" since we aren't in love with sean patrick hannity and rush hudson limbaugh and george walker bush and and richard bruce cheney.
BUT, as we can see from this thread, all three of us, Chrissy and Teo and me, have this one thing in common. We all voted for Henry Ross Perot.
Merkel will now say this really makes us progressives, liberals, democrats, muslims and commies. lol
BUT, as we can see from this thread, all three of us, Chrissy and Teo and me, have this one thing in common. We all voted for Henry Ross Perot.
Merkel will now say this really makes us progressives, liberals, democrats, muslims and commies. lol
5 Re: Ross Perot was the smartest man in the room... 5/27/2014, 8:29 am
Hospital Bob
I'll give you ten to one odds and bet you that merkel did not vote for Henry Ross Perot. I guarantee you merkel voted for the republican. lol
6 Re: Ross Perot was the smartest man in the room... 5/27/2014, 8:36 am
Guest
Guest
Bob wrote:I'll give you ten to one odds and bet you that merkel did not vote for Henry Ross Perot. I guarantee you merkel voted for the republican. lol
I don't know who markle voted for, but markle seems like a very nice person to me. and he is often right.
7 Re: Ross Perot was the smartest man in the room... 5/27/2014, 8:41 am
Hospital Bob
All things considered, markel is a very nice person, I agree.
And that's even though he keeps spewing such utter bullshit as me being "a progressive who believes everything that comes out of barrack hussein obama's mouth" only because I don't worship a bunch of right-wing disk jockeys. lol
And that's even though he keeps spewing such utter bullshit as me being "a progressive who believes everything that comes out of barrack hussein obama's mouth" only because I don't worship a bunch of right-wing disk jockeys. lol
8 Re: Ross Perot was the smartest man in the room... 5/27/2014, 9:28 am
2seaoat
Economic comparative advantage was going to cause equalization over time, and to blame the trade treaties for all of the economic dislocation is naive. Polices which did not value manufacturing and the lack of tax laws which gave a disincentive for exporting jobs and incentives for jobs created in this country failed to compensate for the natural incentives to take production where labor was the cheapest. To build trade barriers which insulated America from competition would have been far more deadly than the trade treaties. The mistakes were tax policy mistakes which the Oligarchy bought and paid for reductions in rates and no disincentive to prioritizing capital over labor. Ross Perot was certainly not right because our export manufacturers have boomed with these treaties, and our agricultural sector has never in the history of this country done better. The simpleton answer that the trade treaties brought us where we are today is simply wrong. Certainly they contributed to decline in some sectors, and they continue to contribute to booms in other areas, but the failure was not what Perot was talking about. It was a failure in tax policy to compensate for natural changes in comparative advantage post WWII.
9 Re: Ross Perot was the smartest man in the room... 5/27/2014, 9:33 am
TEOTWAWKI
Let me sum that up for you taxgoat...
10 Re: Ross Perot was the smartest man in the room... 5/27/2014, 9:42 am
Hospital Bob
It's not rocket science. When Asia came online with unlimited 50 cent/hour labor, that was the beginning of the decline of American economic power.
Was it helped along by democrat and republican politicians who were in bed with the corporations which wanted to take advantage of the 50 cent/hour labor? Yes of course it was.
But regardless of that, it was inevitable that $25/hour American labor could not continue to compete with unlimited 50 cents/hour foreign labor. It wasn't just the corporate fat cats who wanted it. It was also American consumers who wanted much cheaper goods than could be produced with American labor.
It was all exemplified by the big sign inside the front of every Walmart.
In the beginning it said "we buy USA products". Eventually all those signs were taken down. Walton knew that Americans wanted cheaper products regardless of where they're made.
Was it helped along by democrat and republican politicians who were in bed with the corporations which wanted to take advantage of the 50 cent/hour labor? Yes of course it was.
But regardless of that, it was inevitable that $25/hour American labor could not continue to compete with unlimited 50 cents/hour foreign labor. It wasn't just the corporate fat cats who wanted it. It was also American consumers who wanted much cheaper goods than could be produced with American labor.
It was all exemplified by the big sign inside the front of every Walmart.
In the beginning it said "we buy USA products". Eventually all those signs were taken down. Walton knew that Americans wanted cheaper products regardless of where they're made.
11 Re: Ross Perot was the smartest man in the room... 5/27/2014, 10:25 am
ZVUGKTUBM
Bob wrote:All things considered, markel is a very nice person, I agree.
And that's even though he keeps spewing such utter bullshit as me being "a progressive who believes everything that comes out of barrack hussein obama's mouth" only because I don't worship a bunch of right-wing disk jockeys. lol
I think he just spews utter bullshit most of the time. You cannot take the stuff he posts seriously.
I voted for Ross Perot, too in 1992. It was my first (and definitely not last) stray away from a Republican vote.
12 Re: Ross Perot was the smartest man in the room... 5/27/2014, 12:05 pm
Floridatexan
Bob wrote:It's not rocket science. When Asia came online with unlimited 50 cent/hour labor, that was the beginning of the decline of American economic power.
Was it helped along by democrat and republican politicians who were in bed with the corporations which wanted to take advantage of the 50 cent/hour labor? Yes of course it was.
But regardless of that, it was inevitable that $25/hour American labor could not continue to compete with unlimited 50 cents/hour foreign labor. It wasn't just the corporate fat cats who wanted it. It was also American consumers who wanted much cheaper goods than could be produced with American labor.
It was all exemplified by the big sign inside the front of every Walmart.
In the beginning it said "we buy USA products". Eventually all those signs were taken down. Walton knew that Americans wanted cheaper products regardless of where they're made.
Sam Walton was actually trying to fill a niche market for availability of goods in rural areas. He accomplished this by setting up regional distribution centers and negotiating price on volume purchases...all good business decisions. I'm sorry his children lost that vision he had for promoting products made in the USA. I rarely shop at WalMart and always look for products made at home. This doesn't mean I won't buy something foreign, but I won't promote what amounts to slave labor in other countries.
13 Re: Ross Perot was the smartest man in the room... 5/27/2014, 12:55 pm
2seaoat
Let me sum that up for you taxgoat...
Your summary is as simple as Perot's answer. Both are wrong. Economics is a science. The science has shown us that trade increases gdp for all nations who participate. Your and Perot's idea of somehow insulating America from comparative advantage reality is refreshing, especially when I am being called an idiot.
Japan can produce a car for 15k a vehicle total production 200 million
can produce a bushel of corn for 20 bucks total production 100 million
America can produce a car for 20k a vehicle total production 100 million
can produce a bushel of corn for 15 bucks total production 200 million
Ross and you kill trade agreements and build trade barriers. Japan's economy produces 300 million, and America produces 300 million. However trade is resumed. America ships a hundred million of corn to Japan, and Japan ships a 100 million of cars. America now instead of having 300 million output has100 million on its corn, and 100 million domestic production of cars and 125 million imported value. Japan has 100 million of autos and 100 million of domestic corn, and 125 million imported. Each economy has now produced 325 million where they had prior only been producing 300 million.
Trade has enriched the world. Trade treaties like GATT have been huge for the United States. What is always needed is not the elimination of trade treaties but the strict enforcement of the treaties to stop dumping, and coordinated monetary and tax policy to address strategic industries and economic dislocation. There will be pissed off corn farmers in Japan, and pissed off Auto workers in America, but if the treaties are strictly enforced and the incentives are given for job creation, and tax rates are fair......the last thirty years could have been shared prosperity of that 25 million in the example......but instead those in the Oligarchy controlling capital and tax policy allowed our country to be looted as they paid no taxes, huge deficits resulted where economic dislocation and retraining could not be funded, and labor was further discounted in its battle with capital. The failure was not in trade and the simpleton answers of Perot, it was failure to have the sophistication of enforcement, and counter balance to the Oligarchies control of congress. Those who have stolen America count on Simpletons.
Your summary is as simple as Perot's answer. Both are wrong. Economics is a science. The science has shown us that trade increases gdp for all nations who participate. Your and Perot's idea of somehow insulating America from comparative advantage reality is refreshing, especially when I am being called an idiot.
Japan can produce a car for 15k a vehicle total production 200 million
can produce a bushel of corn for 20 bucks total production 100 million
America can produce a car for 20k a vehicle total production 100 million
can produce a bushel of corn for 15 bucks total production 200 million
Ross and you kill trade agreements and build trade barriers. Japan's economy produces 300 million, and America produces 300 million. However trade is resumed. America ships a hundred million of corn to Japan, and Japan ships a 100 million of cars. America now instead of having 300 million output has100 million on its corn, and 100 million domestic production of cars and 125 million imported value. Japan has 100 million of autos and 100 million of domestic corn, and 125 million imported. Each economy has now produced 325 million where they had prior only been producing 300 million.
Trade has enriched the world. Trade treaties like GATT have been huge for the United States. What is always needed is not the elimination of trade treaties but the strict enforcement of the treaties to stop dumping, and coordinated monetary and tax policy to address strategic industries and economic dislocation. There will be pissed off corn farmers in Japan, and pissed off Auto workers in America, but if the treaties are strictly enforced and the incentives are given for job creation, and tax rates are fair......the last thirty years could have been shared prosperity of that 25 million in the example......but instead those in the Oligarchy controlling capital and tax policy allowed our country to be looted as they paid no taxes, huge deficits resulted where economic dislocation and retraining could not be funded, and labor was further discounted in its battle with capital. The failure was not in trade and the simpleton answers of Perot, it was failure to have the sophistication of enforcement, and counter balance to the Oligarchies control of congress. Those who have stolen America count on Simpletons.
14 Re: Ross Perot was the smartest man in the room... 5/27/2014, 2:31 pm
Hospital Bob
Floridatexan wrote:Bob wrote:It's not rocket science. When Asia came online with unlimited 50 cent/hour labor, that was the beginning of the decline of American economic power.
Was it helped along by democrat and republican politicians who were in bed with the corporations which wanted to take advantage of the 50 cent/hour labor? Yes of course it was.
But regardless of that, it was inevitable that $25/hour American labor could not continue to compete with unlimited 50 cents/hour foreign labor. It wasn't just the corporate fat cats who wanted it. It was also American consumers who wanted much cheaper goods than could be produced with American labor.
It was all exemplified by the big sign inside the front of every Walmart.
In the beginning it said "we buy USA products". Eventually all those signs were taken down. Walton knew that Americans wanted cheaper products regardless of where they're made.
Sam Walton was actually trying to fill a niche market for availability of goods in rural areas. He accomplished this by setting up regional distribution centers and negotiating price on volume purchases...all good business decisions. I'm sorry his children lost that vision he had for promoting products made in the USA. I rarely shop at WalMart and always look for products made at home. This doesn't mean I won't buy something foreign, but I won't promote what amounts to slave labor in other countries.
Those "we sell made in the USA" signs came down long before Sam Walton gave over the helm to his kids. He's the one who took them down. Not them.
He did so because his customers wanted cheap prices. If he'd kept selling made in america goods he would have had to close up shop.
15 Re: Ross Perot was the smartest man in the room... 5/27/2014, 4:25 pm
TEOTWAWKI
So the real enemies of our country and it's economy are the consumers and seaoat of course....
16 Re: Ross Perot was the smartest man in the room... 5/27/2014, 5:09 pm
2seaoat
Sorry to bust your hero Perot........all he did was get Bill Clinton elected and all the things he claims he was against passed.....do you need a road map.
17 Re: Ross Perot was the smartest man in the room... 5/27/2014, 5:19 pm
TEOTWAWKI
2seaoat wrote:Sorry to bust your hero Perot........all he did was get Bill Clinton elected and all the things he claims he was against passed.....do you need a road map.
All the out of work young people probably should know why today they are out of work or just barely able to get by living in their Mom's basement....
Make that sucking sound seaoat, you do it so well..
18 Re: Ross Perot was the smartest man in the room... 5/27/2014, 5:22 pm
2seaoat
Make that sucking sound seaoat, you do it so well..
Ok.....now for some fun. What would you and Perot do with Nafta and Gatt?
Ok.....now for some fun. What would you and Perot do with Nafta and Gatt?
20 Re: Ross Perot was the smartest man in the room... 5/27/2014, 5:41 pm
TEOTWAWKI
2seaoat wrote:Make that sucking sound seaoat, you do it so well..
Ok.....now for some fun. What would you and Perot do with Nafta and Gatt?
the bullet's already hit the bone Taxgoat...the country is bleeding out first world jobs. That was the plan all along to reduce the middle class in the USA to 3rd world class and circumvent the protections of the constitution that were in place to keep America strong and prosperous....
"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."
-- Thomas Jefferson
21 Re: Ross Perot was the smartest man in the room... 5/27/2014, 5:56 pm
TEOTWAWKI
"The Federal Reserve banks are one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever seen. There is not a man within the sound of my voice who does not know that this nation is run by the International bankers."
-Congressman Louis T. McFadden
-Congressman Louis T. McFadden
22 Re: Ross Perot was the smartest man in the room... 5/27/2014, 6:42 pm
2seaoat
Your huffing and puffing and giving half the equation is something which you must learn to control. Tell me now that you have shown the loss jobs......do you have the figures on job creation under the treaty? Do you understand the economic growth under the same? You start with a proposition, and then search for facts to back the same. Without huffing and puffing......you will find out jobs were created, and we had greater economic growth than without the treaty......this is common economic knowledge, and what you see is economic dislocation without the required compensatory system to address the same is a problem which starts with congress. The job growth and huge improvements in our GDP and exports is something you must understand which is basic with understanding trade and comparative advantage.
23 Re: Ross Perot was the smartest man in the room... 5/27/2014, 7:25 pm
Guest
Guest
I think NAFTA has hurt us.
In the US, Bush, who had worked to "fast track" the signing prior to the end of his term, ran out of time and had to pass the required ratification and signing into law to incoming president Bill Clinton. Prior to sending it to the United States Senate Clinton added two side agreements, The North American Agreement on Labor Cooperation (NAALC) and the North American Agreement on Environmental Cooperation (NAAEC), to protect workers and the environment, plus allay the concerns of many House members. It also required US partners to adhere to environmental practices and regulations similar to its own.
What were these things that had to be inserted into the agreement before Clinton would sign it?
What exactly IS the NAALC? labor agreement? hmmmmmm
Its a labor UNION for migrant workers.
Since labor is cheaper in Mexico, many manufacturing industries moved part of their production from high-cost U.S. states. Between 1994 and 2010, the U.S. trade deficits with Mexico totaled $97.2 billion, displacing 682,900 U.S. jobs. (However, 116,400 occurred after 2007, and could have been a result of the financial crisis.)
http://useconomy.about.com/od/tradepolicy/p/NAFTA_Problems.htm
I didn't like HW because of this. I always thought of nafta as a sort of EU like deal and it is, but we the working Americans are not the beneficiaries.
In the US, Bush, who had worked to "fast track" the signing prior to the end of his term, ran out of time and had to pass the required ratification and signing into law to incoming president Bill Clinton. Prior to sending it to the United States Senate Clinton added two side agreements, The North American Agreement on Labor Cooperation (NAALC) and the North American Agreement on Environmental Cooperation (NAAEC), to protect workers and the environment, plus allay the concerns of many House members. It also required US partners to adhere to environmental practices and regulations similar to its own.
What were these things that had to be inserted into the agreement before Clinton would sign it?
What exactly IS the NAALC? labor agreement? hmmmmmm
Its a labor UNION for migrant workers.
Since labor is cheaper in Mexico, many manufacturing industries moved part of their production from high-cost U.S. states. Between 1994 and 2010, the U.S. trade deficits with Mexico totaled $97.2 billion, displacing 682,900 U.S. jobs. (However, 116,400 occurred after 2007, and could have been a result of the financial crisis.)
http://useconomy.about.com/od/tradepolicy/p/NAFTA_Problems.htm
I didn't like HW because of this. I always thought of nafta as a sort of EU like deal and it is, but we the working Americans are not the beneficiaries.
24 Re: Ross Perot was the smartest man in the room... 5/27/2014, 7:30 pm
TEOTWAWKI
Wonderful ..dislocation ?..I would say more like amputation but I guess we could all move to North Dakota and find work fracking....sheesh..the country is in a toilet jobs wise and you are saying it's all gonna be okay....
25 Re: Ross Perot was the smartest man in the room... 5/28/2014, 1:17 am
Guest
Guest
Bob wrote:See, since we aren't in love with republicans and sean patrick hannity and rush hudson Limbaugh, markle says that makes us all progressives, liberals, muslims and commies. Merkle even says we "believe every word that comes out of barrack hussein obama's mouth" since we aren't in love with sean patrick hannity and rush hudson limbaugh and george walker bush and and richard bruce cheney.
BUT, as we can see from this thread, all three of us, Chrissy and Teo and me, have this one thing in common. We all voted for Henry Ross Perot.
Merkel will now say this really makes us progressives, liberals, democrats, muslims and commies. lol
Actually it would be the four of us.
However after that election I decided that the Democratic progressive liberals will toe the party line no matter what and attempting to convince them to choose the alternate candidate representing neither party is a waste of time.
*****CHUCKLE*****
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X_2IdybTV0
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