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Question for our libertarian-minded posters

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TEOTWAWKI
Sal
stormwatch89
Ghost Rider
gulfbeachbandit
boards of FL
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If someone shows up to an ER with 1) some sort of severe trauma, 2) no health insurance, and 3) no means of effectively paying for the services required to make them right again, what should happen?

Question for our libertarian-minded posters I_vote_lcap11%Question for our libertarian-minded posters I_vote_rcap 11% [ 1 ]
Question for our libertarian-minded posters I_vote_lcap89%Question for our libertarian-minded posters I_vote_rcap 89% [ 8 ]
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boards of FL

boards of FL

Let's assume that you have a magic wand and can make anything happen that you like.   *poof*, no more Obamacare.  You now have the power to change anything you want.  Currently, people with no health insurance typically go to an ER to receive care, as the ER cannot turn anyone away.  How would that work in a libertarian utopia?

If someone shows up to an ER with 1) some sort of severe trauma, 2) no health insurance, and 3) no means of effectively paying for the services required to make them right again, what should happen?

I am not a libertarian, so I will not vote here.


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gulfbeachbandit

gulfbeachbandit

If someone shows up at a car dealer with no money, no credit, and no way of paying for a car, should the car dealer just hand them a car?

Ghost Rider

Ghost Rider

gulfbeachbandit wrote: If someone shows up at a car dealer with no money, no credit, and no way of paying for a car, should the car dealer just hand them a car?
Apples to oranges. I voted they should be treated. Insurance or not, doctors(at least most of them) still adhere to the Hippocratic oath. I don't like it, but it is what it is and for those living in poverty that still won't be able to afford insurance even with the ACA, they will continue to use the ER as they do now.

Guest


Guest

What's going to be different when someone choses not to purchase obamacare and gets hurt? Hell... what's going to happen if they haven't paid their enormous deductible hasn't been met? Boards doesn't answer our questions... why answer his?



Last edited by PkrBum on 10/4/2013, 2:44 pm; edited 1 time in total

gulfbeachbandit

gulfbeachbandit

Ghost Rider wrote:
gulfbeachbandit wrote: If someone shows up at a car dealer with no money, no credit, and no way of paying for a car, should the car dealer just hand them a car?
Apples to oranges. I voted they should be treated. Insurance or not, doctors(at least most of them) still adhere to the Hippocratic oath. I don't like it, but it is what it is and for those living in poverty that still won't be able to afford insurance even with the ACA, they will continue to use the ER as they do now.
I buy apples and I buy oranges. Why should anyone get either one for free?

Guest


Guest

PkrBum wrote:What's going to be different when someone choses not to purchase obamacare and gets hurt? Hell... what's going to happen if they haven't paid their enormous deductible hasn't been met? Boards doesn't answer our questions... why answer his?
Thats right, he never does answer questions. He thinks he is above that. typical liberal BS.

BTW... NO ER"s were turning away patients. That has never been the issue.

Ghost Rider

Ghost Rider

gulfbeachbandit wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:
gulfbeachbandit wrote: If someone shows up at a car dealer with no money, no credit, and no way of paying for a car, should the car dealer just hand them a car?
Apples to oranges. I voted they should be treated. Insurance or not, doctors(at least most of them) still adhere to the Hippocratic oath. I don't like it, but it is what it is and for those living in poverty that still won't be able to afford insurance even with the ACA, they will continue to use the ER as they do now.
I buy apples and I buy oranges.  Why should anyone get either one for free?
Apples and oranges are not human lives. Since you want to make a joke out of human lives by comparing them to apples, oranges and even cars then I do not believe we have anything further to discuss.

stormwatch89

stormwatch89

PkrBum wrote:What's going to be different when someone choses not to purchase obamacare and gets hurt? Hell... what's going to happen if they haven't paid their enormous deductible hasn't been met? Boards doesn't answer our questions... why answer his?

cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers 

boards of FL

boards of FL

PkrBum wrote:What's going to be different when someone choses not to purchase obamacare and gets hurt?

In the scenario that I gave, the patient would be accepted in the ER.


PkrBum wrote:Hell... what's going to happen if they haven't paid their enormous deductible hasn't been met?

In the scenario that I gave, the patient would be accepted in the ER.


PkrBum wrote:Boards doesn't answer our questions... why answer his?

I just answered. Your turn. Let's make this more interesting. Let's say the patient is a minor being raised by a family living below the poverty line...er....well...I suppose in "Libertopia", there would be no such thing as a poverty line. Let's just say this minor comes form a poor family that doesn't have health insurance or any means to pay. This minor has a severed limb.

How is this handled in "Libertopia"? Does this kid die on the spot?


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Sal

Sal

Guest


Guest

boards of FL wrote:
PkrBum wrote:What's going to be different when someone choses not to purchase obamacare and gets hurt?
In the scenario that I gave, the patient would be accepted in the ER.


PkrBum wrote:Hell... what's going to happen if they haven't paid their enormous deductible hasn't been met?
In the scenario that I gave, the patient would be accepted in the ER.


PkrBum wrote:Boards doesn't answer our questions... why answer his?
I just answered.  Your turn.  Let's make this more interesting.  Let's say the patient is a minor being raised by a family living below the poverty line...er....well...I suppose in "Libertopia", there would be no such thing as a poverty line.  Let's just say this minor comes form a poor family that doesn't have health insurance or any means to pay.  This minor has a severed limb.

How is this handled in "Libertopia"?  Does this kid die on the spot?
Of course not. I'd like to say though, the people who actively chose not to have insurance and then have a medical crisis should be considered to be turned away. Or at least be sent to an inferior hospital w/ limited resources.

stormwatch89

stormwatch89

exactly as they are treated now, without govt being another layer.

TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

Let him have a glass of wine laced with a slow acting poison along with some cheese and a nice 3d movie of a beautiful field of flowers then after he slips away off to the soylent green factory...Yummy.What a Face 

2seaoat



It is difficult for some folks to conceptualize. Insurance is simply spreading the risk among many and determining a payment factor which covers those risks. Actuaries have made the same a science. It is not socialism. It is simple math. In a single payer insurance system there is spreading the risk over the largest possible pool......every citizen in the United States. Determining the risk factor and premium per person, and charging each and every citizen a premium. It is a simple insurance pool. Budgets are simple priorities. As a society we determine the budgetary constraints necessary to pay the premium, and how best to collect the same. No freeloaders, and economy of scale savings. Social Security has been a huge American success. Medicare for all will be a huge American success.

Now the politics come into play deciding how revenues will be collected to fund the insurance plan. There is no politics in what we call an insurance pool, that however has been the providence of idiots who somehow want to attach labels of political systems to what is simply a mechanical and scientific actuarial based system of insurance. The politics comes into play when some have to pay more, and others have to pay less. I say forget the politics. Everybody pays a small amount, and raise the remaining revenue with a 3% sales tax and a penny transaction on all stock trades in America. Some will argue that the tax system is unfair, but a sales tax punishes consumption, and the transactional tax is way overdue. These problems are not difficult once the special interest groups and their shills are removed. This is a simple national health insurance pool which will require the costs to be borne by the users......simple insurance concepts, not political smoke and mirrors.

boards of FL

boards of FL

stormwatch89 wrote:exactly as they are treated now, without govt being another layer.

But it is only due to federal law that people are required to be seen in an ER.

In "Libertopia", there is no government to dictate to hospitals whether or not they can turn away people in the ER, so therein lies the question:  How would the scenario I described play out in Libertarian World?


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TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

Some folks want a Mercedes and can't afford it and some want a liver transplant and can't afford it. Some folks could have afforded a Mercedes if they didn't go drinking every weekend. Some folks wouldn't need a liver transplant if they hadn't gone drinking every weekend. Why are the rest of us responsible for your bad choices ? When does personal responsibility relieve society of the burden of your foolish choices?

Guest


Guest

boards of FL wrote:
stormwatch89 wrote:exactly as they are treated now, without govt being another layer.
But it is only due to federal law that people are required to be seen in an ER.

In "Libertopia", there is no government to dictate to hospitals whether or not they can turn away people in the ER, so therein lies the question:  How would the scenario I described play out in Libertarian World?
Hospitals GIVE AWAY free care all the time. They have been and not at the direction of the Gov. They were doing it before odumbercare.

and they will be doing it after odumbercare.

and I dont think libertarians want absolutly ZERO Gov. You are exagerating the idea. To want ZERO Gov would be to want anarchy and NO Constitution, buecause certainly the constitution promotes SOME Gov.

stormwatch89

stormwatch89

In a true Libertarian society we would reap what we've sown.

We would also take care of our less fortunate neighbors. We always have, always will.

In a true Libertarian society, no one would expect the govt to supply "Entitlements". God, I hate that word!

Because we are born, we are "entitled"?. I think not.

We would actually survive and have a motive to achieve.

Strange concept for the left.

Floridatexan

Floridatexan

Ghost Rider wrote:
gulfbeachbandit wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:
gulfbeachbandit wrote: If someone shows up at a car dealer with no money, no credit, and no way of paying for a car, should the car dealer just hand them a car?
Apples to oranges. I voted they should be treated. Insurance or not, doctors(at least most of them) still adhere to the Hippocratic oath. I don't like it, but it is what it is and for those living in poverty that still won't be able to afford insurance even with the ACA, they will continue to use the ER as they do now.
I buy apples and I buy oranges.  Why should anyone get either one for free?
Apples and oranges are not human lives. Since you want to make a joke out of human lives by comparing them to apples, oranges and even cars then I do not believe we have anything further to discuss.
cheers 

Floridatexan

Floridatexan

Chrissy wrote:
boards of FL wrote:
stormwatch89 wrote:exactly as they are treated now, without govt being another layer.
But it is only due to federal law that people are required to be seen in an ER.

In "Libertopia", there is no government to dictate to hospitals whether or not they can turn away people in the ER, so therein lies the question:  How would the scenario I described play out in Libertarian World?
Hospitals GIVE AWAY free care all the time. They have been and not at the direction of the Gov. They were doing it before odumbercare.

and they will be doing it after odumbercare.

and I dont think libertarians want absolutly ZERO Gov. You are exagerating  the idea. To want ZERO Gov would be to want anarchy and NO Constitution, buecause certainly the constitution promotes SOME Gov.
No, they don't. They either charge Medicaid or Medicare and/or spread the cost among their patients with insurance. (Exception: some hospitals have foundations which accept contributions from 3rd parties to fund procedures for those who are in great need of them but have no coverage.)

Floridatexan

Floridatexan

stormwatch89 wrote:In a true Libertarian society we would reap what we've sown.

We would also take care of our less fortunate neighbors.  We always have, always will.

In a true Libertarian society, no one would expect the govt to supply "Entitlements".  God, I hate that word!

Because we are born, we are "entitled"?.  I think not.

We would actually survive and have a motive to achieve.

Strange concept for the left.
I beg to differ about "taking care of our less fortunate neighbors". I think you've overestimated the generosity of some people...certainly not all, thank God. Did you hear the Ron Paul devotees, "Let them die."? And every illness or accident is not necessarily due to lifestyle choices or circumstances of birth. There are plenty of working poor...and plenty of people who did absolutely nothing to land themselves in a hospital.

Floridatexan

Floridatexan

TEOTWAWKI wrote:Some folks want a Mercedes and can't afford it and some want a liver transplant and can't afford it. Some folks could have afforded a Mercedes if they didn't go drinking every weekend. Some folks wouldn't need a liver transplant if they hadn't gone drinking every weekend. Why are the rest of us responsible for your bad choices ? When does personal responsibility relieve society of the burden of your foolish choices?
A friend of mine had a liver transplant 7 years ago. He was told that his liver damage was likely due to having received immunizations with a "gun" before he went to Nam. The transplant...for whatever reason...failed. We lost a good friend about 3 months ago.

boards of FL

boards of FL

TEOTWAWKI wrote:Some folks want a Mercedes and can't afford it and some want a liver transplant and can't afford it. Some folks could have afforded a Mercedes if they didn't go drinking every weekend. Some folks wouldn't need a liver transplant if they hadn't gone drinking every weekend. Why are the rest of us responsible for your bad choices ? When does personal responsibility relieve society of the burden of your foolish choices?
I don't expect you to pay for my liver transplant anymore than you expect me to pay for the gallon-jugs of sweet tea that you use for target practice.

Now if you'll excuse me, it's happy hour, and the bar tender just brought me a tall rum and coke.


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stormwatch89

stormwatch89

Floridatexan wrote:
stormwatch89 wrote:In a true Libertarian society we would reap what we've sown.

We would also take care of our less fortunate neighbors.  We always have, always will.

In a true Libertarian society, no one would expect the govt to supply "Entitlements".  God, I hate that word!

Because we are born, we are "entitled"?.  I think not.

We would actually survive and have a motive to achieve.

Strange concept for the left.
I beg to differ about "taking care of our less fortunate neighbors".  I think you've overestimated the generosity of some people...certainly not all, thank God.  Did you hear the Ron Paul devotees, "Let them die."?  And every illness or accident is not necessarily due to lifestyle choices or circumstances of birth.  There are plenty of working poor...and plenty of people who did absolutely nothing to land themselves in a hospital.  

FT, I'm probably more cynical than you, but what we have experienced in our lifetime is more "entitlement" thinking.

I do believe that people are, for the most part, kind.

It would be interesting to see should we cast aside the "owe me" thinking.

I think you'd be surprised.

Guest


Guest

Floridatexan wrote:
Chrissy wrote:
boards of FL wrote:
stormwatch89 wrote:exactly as they are treated now, without govt being another layer.
But it is only due to federal law that people are required to be seen in an ER.

In "Libertopia", there is no government to dictate to hospitals whether or not they can turn away people in the ER, so therein lies the question:  How would the scenario I described play out in Libertarian World?
Hospitals GIVE AWAY free care all the time. They have been and not at the direction of the Gov. They were doing it before odumbercare.

and they will be doing it after odumbercare.

and I dont think libertarians want absolutly ZERO Gov. You are exagerating  the idea. To want ZERO Gov would be to want anarchy and NO Constitution, buecause certainly the constitution promotes SOME Gov.
No, they don't.  They either charge Medicaid or Medicare and/or spread the cost among their patients with insurance.  (Exception:  some hospitals have foundations which accept contributions from 3rd parties to fund procedures for those who are in great need of them but have no coverage.)  
YES they do.

Ive personally been involved with services being given away, free mammograms, free clinics, and multi million dollar write offs. Matter of a fact, they plan every year for a expected amount of write offs.

Your ideal that they don't is like saying, they gave away a free car, but no thy really didn't, they made up for it by charging the ones who pay more. and you have a problem with charging the ones who pay more since when? Because its not medicare and certainly not Medicaid that's getting ripped off, its ALWAYS been people with private insurance that made up the difference. ALWAYS. ie: vicious cycle. don't make me go there again.

fact is, you only think its a free give away when the gov steals from the working and gives to those not.



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