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MOST OF OUR WEALTH DEPENDS ON DEBT
+5
NaNook
Margin Call
2seaoat
gulfbeachbandit
surfnrg
9 posters
Message [Page 1 of 1]
2 Re: MOST OF OUR WEALTH DEPENDS ON DEBT 11/20/2012, 9:57 pm
gulfbeachbandit
If you can't pay your debts, are you still wealthy?
Who gave me a negative vote for this post?
Expose youself.
Who gave me a negative vote for this post?
Expose youself.
Last edited by salinski on 11/20/2012, 10:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
3 SO SIMPLE IT IS STUPID 11/20/2012, 10:03 pm
surfnrg
There are not enough people not working for the government to pay for those who do work for the government.
wealth can only be created by the private sector. the public sector has to be smaller than the private.
it is REALLY that simple. Ron Paul gets it.
Until this changes we are going to go broke. simple.
wealth can only be created by the private sector. the public sector has to be smaller than the private.
it is REALLY that simple. Ron Paul gets it.
Until this changes we are going to go broke. simple.
4 quote 11/20/2012, 10:12 pm
surfnrg
salinski wrote:If you can't pay your debts, are you still wealthy?
the government is putting small businesses out of business. it burdens entrepreneurs, with the onerous responsibility of having to support layer upon layer of bureaucracy which by its very definition is self serving and self perpetuating.
We are on the brink. The "precipice" upon which Mr. Paul refers.
There is no longer any reason to take the chance to be a small business. The government has made sure of that. We are moving from a free economy of small mom and pop businesses tied and rooted into the community from which they sprang to an economy of "scale". These economies of scale reduce the common denominator of free enterprise to their own monopoly. And that monopoly in the end creates more debt and less wealth.
5 Re: MOST OF OUR WEALTH DEPENDS ON DEBT 11/21/2012, 7:37 am
2seaoat
I got a notice from a government unit that my business license will be suspended next year because of a violation of having a portable bathroom on my property.....without a permit........WTF.......you need to get a building permit to put a portable bathroom on your property, and they want to not renew your business license.......At what point is this country going to say enough. I am sick and tired of being protected from myself......government is justifying its existence by throwing common sense out the window. Well, I am going to fight the bastards.....I am sick and tired of a bunch of people sitting around a table telling a person how they must run their business as this nation goes bankrupt paying their unnecessary salaries......slowly but surely we need to make the government footprint smaller.....I have some immediate suggestions where to begin...and who to begin with........
6 Re: MOST OF OUR WEALTH DEPENDS ON DEBT 11/22/2012, 9:18 am
Margin Call
surfnrg wrote:There are not enough people not working for the government to pay for those who do work for the government.
wealth can only be created by the private sector. the public sector has to be smaller than the private.
it is REALLY that simple. Ron Paul gets it.
Until this changes we are going to go broke. simple.
The government can facilitate the creation of wealth through technological development and innovation or even having a bridge built that makes transportation more efficient. The government has a very long history of funding wealth-creating inventions and breakthoughs: the interstate system, the internet, GPS, etc. The government does indeed have a long history of massive waste too, but to say that the government can't create wealth isn't entirely accurate.
7 Re: MOST OF OUR WEALTH DEPENDS ON DEBT 11/22/2012, 9:22 am
Margin Call
surfnrg wrote:
There is no longer any reason to take the chance to be a small business.
Hyperbole much?
8 Re: MOST OF OUR WEALTH DEPENDS ON DEBT 11/22/2012, 10:37 am
2seaoat
There is no longer any reason to take the chance to be a small business.
It really is incredibly hard. I used to be able to walk into any bank and a week later have a line of credit set up. The world is upside down. The folks who kept their money in a bank cd have been rewarded by taking no risk and those who built business and worked to expand the same have been smacked down. I could never have imagined this environment 10 years ago.....it simply was not foreseeable.
The government caused the crisis. I have written how my primary bank was shut down by the FDIC. They closed the bank and found another bank to take over operations. The bank which took over assumed all commercial lines of credit. The FDIC guarantees up to five years 80% of those loans. I was one of the lucky ones. Two years ago they extended my lines and I have never been late or missed a payment, but they have told me in September of 2013 they will pull my lines of credit. Now try to find a business loan which uses as collateral real estate........impossible. Try selling anything to do with a business which does not involve liquidation....impossible.
The solution always was going from a five year guarantee to a 10 year guarantee.....this would have allowed small business time to survive. Instead across this country you see storefronts empty, small business laying off their employees, and banks further compromising their collateral as the cycle of 2008 is about to repeat itself in commercial real estate. The kicker is that I will probably have to go to private funds to offer a compromise payment on the line, and they will take it without recourse, and the only loser will be the FDIC who has made this arbitrary rule as they will lose hundreds of thousands of dollars.
I have to look over my shoulder constantly to see what governmental unit next will walk into my business and have some problem. I have spent too many hours in Milton sitting around tables with representatives from different branches of local government telling me how I should expand my business......folks who were picked last in gym class, barely graduated from high school, are now all giving their opinion on what I need to do even though what they suggest is neither correct or inexpensive.....yet they will refuse to approve a project until you act like a trained seal asking for a fish.....it is insanity. It is easier to simply close down a business when expansion is made so difficult by the policies of government and the financing of business has become so impossible. I am one of the lucky ones because I had a record year last year, yet come September of 2013 I may simply close this business and retire....so if you think it is hyperbole......few people on these forums actually run a business day to day and what Surf has said is the truth.
It really is incredibly hard. I used to be able to walk into any bank and a week later have a line of credit set up. The world is upside down. The folks who kept their money in a bank cd have been rewarded by taking no risk and those who built business and worked to expand the same have been smacked down. I could never have imagined this environment 10 years ago.....it simply was not foreseeable.
The government caused the crisis. I have written how my primary bank was shut down by the FDIC. They closed the bank and found another bank to take over operations. The bank which took over assumed all commercial lines of credit. The FDIC guarantees up to five years 80% of those loans. I was one of the lucky ones. Two years ago they extended my lines and I have never been late or missed a payment, but they have told me in September of 2013 they will pull my lines of credit. Now try to find a business loan which uses as collateral real estate........impossible. Try selling anything to do with a business which does not involve liquidation....impossible.
The solution always was going from a five year guarantee to a 10 year guarantee.....this would have allowed small business time to survive. Instead across this country you see storefronts empty, small business laying off their employees, and banks further compromising their collateral as the cycle of 2008 is about to repeat itself in commercial real estate. The kicker is that I will probably have to go to private funds to offer a compromise payment on the line, and they will take it without recourse, and the only loser will be the FDIC who has made this arbitrary rule as they will lose hundreds of thousands of dollars.
I have to look over my shoulder constantly to see what governmental unit next will walk into my business and have some problem. I have spent too many hours in Milton sitting around tables with representatives from different branches of local government telling me how I should expand my business......folks who were picked last in gym class, barely graduated from high school, are now all giving their opinion on what I need to do even though what they suggest is neither correct or inexpensive.....yet they will refuse to approve a project until you act like a trained seal asking for a fish.....it is insanity. It is easier to simply close down a business when expansion is made so difficult by the policies of government and the financing of business has become so impossible. I am one of the lucky ones because I had a record year last year, yet come September of 2013 I may simply close this business and retire....so if you think it is hyperbole......few people on these forums actually run a business day to day and what Surf has said is the truth.
9 Re: MOST OF OUR WEALTH DEPENDS ON DEBT 11/22/2012, 9:45 pm
NaNook
2seaoat wrote:There is no longer any reason to take the chance to be a small business.
It really is incredibly hard. I used to be able to walk into any bank and a week later have a line of credit set up. The world is upside down. The folks who kept their money in a bank cd have been rewarded by taking no risk and those who built business and worked to expand the same have been smacked down. I could never have imagined this environment 10 years ago.....it simply was not foreseeable.
The government caused the crisis. I have written how my primary bank was shut down by the FDIC. They closed the bank and found another bank to take over operations. The bank which took over assumed all commercial lines of credit. The FDIC guarantees up to five years 80% of those loans. I was one of the lucky ones. Two years ago they extended my lines and I have never been late or missed a payment, but they have told me in September of 2013 they will pull my lines of credit. Now try to find a business loan which uses as collateral real estate........impossible. Try selling anything to do with a business which does not involve liquidation....impossible.
The solution always was going from a five year guarantee to a 10 year guarantee.....this would have allowed small business time to survive. Instead across this country you see storefronts empty, small business laying off their employees, and banks further compromising their collateral as the cycle of 2008 is about to repeat itself in commercial real estate. The kicker is that I will probably have to go to private funds to offer a compromise payment on the line, and they will take it without recourse, and the only loser will be the FDIC who has made this arbitrary rule as they will lose hundreds of thousands of dollars.
I have to look over my shoulder constantly to see what governmental unit next will walk into my business and have some problem. I have spent too many hours in Milton sitting around tables with representatives from different branches of local government telling me how I should expand my business......folks who were picked last in gym class, barely graduated from high school, are now all giving their opinion on what I need to do even though what they suggest is neither correct or inexpensive.....yet they will refuse to approve a project until you act like a trained seal asking for a fish.....it is insanity. It is easier to simply close down a business when expansion is made so difficult by the policies of government and the financing of business has become so impossible. I am one of the lucky ones because I had a record year last year, yet come September of 2013 I may simply close this business and retire....so if you think it is hyperbole......few people on these forums actually run a business day to day and what Surf has said is the truth.
Didn't you support Obama? Wait a few more months, your investments will be worth less for the common good. Enjoy......
10 Re: MOST OF OUR WEALTH DEPENDS ON DEBT 11/23/2012, 9:46 am
Margin Call
There has indeed been a shift in how some companies with long working capital cycles are able to fund operations. Traditional bank loans and even vendor financing have tightened for many small business owners. I've seen more require COD these days. As you have alluded to, this is going to require more skin in the game for many and perhaps the death of some business models. Perhaps, the economic development talent in Milton is lacking too....indeed, an important part of the financing equation.
No one is denying that the world has changed. We are still in a credit crisis of sorts....a crisis created by banks, government, as well as, overzealous property buyers (you've admitted to being part of the herd). However, I read "There is no longer any reason to take the chance to be a small business" as representative of a personal experience even if the number of those personal experiences has increased since 2007.
Anecdotally, I have seen the birth many businesses amoungst my friends and acquaintances....many out of necessity due to a horrible job market. It seems to me that there is more reason that ever to start a business. FWIW, my wife just started a new business and will likely double her prior year's take-home pay this next year....some models still work.
No one is denying that the world has changed. We are still in a credit crisis of sorts....a crisis created by banks, government, as well as, overzealous property buyers (you've admitted to being part of the herd). However, I read "There is no longer any reason to take the chance to be a small business" as representative of a personal experience even if the number of those personal experiences has increased since 2007.
Anecdotally, I have seen the birth many businesses amoungst my friends and acquaintances....many out of necessity due to a horrible job market. It seems to me that there is more reason that ever to start a business. FWIW, my wife just started a new business and will likely double her prior year's take-home pay this next year....some models still work.
11 Re: MOST OF OUR WEALTH DEPENDS ON DEBT 11/23/2012, 3:04 pm
2seaoat
Didn't you support Obama? Wait a few more months, your investments will be worth less for the common good. Enjoy......
No, I worked actively to not see Romney elected. I voted for Johnson. I found President Obama to be flawed, but a far better candidate than Romney. I have personally lost over two million dollars of assets in the last five years.......no big deal.....when I lived in a material world, I too was guilty of building illusions, and yes I will live the balance of the time I have quite comfortably.....I rarely look at what I have lost, rather I take pride in what I have built.....long after I am gone, my contribution will be beyond what I leave my children....and thankfully I have earned my wisdom early enough to recognize what is important.......and it is not silly investments and scorekeeping.....that my friend is nothing more than a video game you play until someone comes and pulls the plug....and then you realize it never really mattered a bit, and all those points on the board......meaningless.....absolutely meaningless.
No, I worked actively to not see Romney elected. I voted for Johnson. I found President Obama to be flawed, but a far better candidate than Romney. I have personally lost over two million dollars of assets in the last five years.......no big deal.....when I lived in a material world, I too was guilty of building illusions, and yes I will live the balance of the time I have quite comfortably.....I rarely look at what I have lost, rather I take pride in what I have built.....long after I am gone, my contribution will be beyond what I leave my children....and thankfully I have earned my wisdom early enough to recognize what is important.......and it is not silly investments and scorekeeping.....that my friend is nothing more than a video game you play until someone comes and pulls the plug....and then you realize it never really mattered a bit, and all those points on the board......meaningless.....absolutely meaningless.
12 Re: MOST OF OUR WEALTH DEPENDS ON DEBT 11/23/2012, 10:25 pm
Guest
Guest
By far and away the biggest myth in this country, whether it be from governmental entities, vendors, repairmen, utilities or workers is that small business owners by their being in business are somehow wealthy or deep in assets. I've seen more small businesses fail in the last five years than in the previous forty and I expect it will get worse. Of the many, many that I know they are now living hand to mouth, selling off assets, trying to put on a good face and are one good hurricane or crisis from shutting their doors.
It seems to me most people launching businesses are doing so with little research or consulting to understand the markets and the massive amount of nickel and diming (in the form of $1K pops) in the I form of
licenses, fees, attorney fees, taxation and goodwill that they will face.
In other words, it takes some naivete or dreaming in this day and age to go for it.
Until we stop hamstringing small business, we can kiss the ONLY real source of wealth and job creation in our "free" market. Frankly, government needs to stop acting like a haranguing wife over the one true bread winner.
It seems to me most people launching businesses are doing so with little research or consulting to understand the markets and the massive amount of nickel and diming (in the form of $1K pops) in the I form of
licenses, fees, attorney fees, taxation and goodwill that they will face.
In other words, it takes some naivete or dreaming in this day and age to go for it.
Until we stop hamstringing small business, we can kiss the ONLY real source of wealth and job creation in our "free" market. Frankly, government needs to stop acting like a haranguing wife over the one true bread winner.
13 Re: MOST OF OUR WEALTH DEPENDS ON DEBT 11/23/2012, 11:05 pm
2seaoat
I understand regulations, and in fact support most.....but common sense and the role of government facilitating growth and prosperity has been replaced by a strange adversary dance which becomes more about the power of the bureaucrat versus the substantive deviation from some standard which should be the focus. I never see government shrinking. We have had 50 years of stringent building codes and one would assume that fire safety would see per capita expenditures on fire protection to decline, but just the opposite has happened.
We need to protect wetlands, but we have become crazy with some of our wetland regulations. We lived in this country for 200 years without zoning laws, yet now we have people on PB who want to tell you what color you must paint your house. State and local government has just got too much skin in the average person's business interests.....and it really is time to tell much of government to mind their own business....to start making cuts, and to consolidate functions.....but this will not happen.
We need to protect wetlands, but we have become crazy with some of our wetland regulations. We lived in this country for 200 years without zoning laws, yet now we have people on PB who want to tell you what color you must paint your house. State and local government has just got too much skin in the average person's business interests.....and it really is time to tell much of government to mind their own business....to start making cuts, and to consolidate functions.....but this will not happen.
14 Re: MOST OF OUR WEALTH DEPENDS ON DEBT 11/24/2012, 12:16 pm
Guest
Guest
The interference of the government will cease when we lose our ability to fund through more debt our ability to fill the jobs of a top heavy government.
So yes, you won't have anyone telling you what color to paint your house, but you also won't have anyone to remove the squatters building seaward on leased property.
It's a mixed bag.
So yes, you won't have anyone telling you what color to paint your house, but you also won't have anyone to remove the squatters building seaward on leased property.
It's a mixed bag.
15 Re: MOST OF OUR WEALTH DEPENDS ON DEBT 11/24/2012, 5:40 pm
TEOTWAWKI
2seaoat wrote:I got a notice from a government unit that my business license will be suspended next year because of a violation of having a portable bathroom on my property.....without a permit........WTF.......you need to get a building permit to put a portable bathroom on your property, and they want to not renew your business license.......At what point is this country going to say enough. I am sick and tired of being protected from myself......government is justifying its existence by throwing common sense out the window. Well, I am going to fight the bastards.....I am sick and tired of a bunch of people sitting around a table telling a person how they must run their business as this nation goes bankrupt paying their unnecessary salaries......slowly but surely we need to make the government footprint smaller.....I have some immediate suggestions where to begin...and who to begin with........
Nail their hides to the wood shed Mr. Oat...
16 Re: MOST OF OUR WEALTH DEPENDS ON DEBT 11/25/2012, 1:58 pm
Floridatexan
surfnrg wrote:There are not enough people not working for the government to pay for those who do work for the government.
wealth can only be created by the private sector. the public sector has to be smaller than the private.
it is REALLY that simple. Ron Paul gets it.
Until this changes we are going to go broke. simple.
What exactly do you think happened in 2008? One hand washed the other; the government colluded with big business, in particular those industries geared to profit from WAR. A propaganda machine and a revolving door between government and private industry, including massive handouts in the form of subsidies, grants, distorted tax policies, and then direct bailouts to the financial sector almost brought the economy down. It was theft on a monumental scale, and it could easily happen again. The vast majority of people suffered, but those at the top of the heap profited greatly and WILL TRY TO DO IT AGAIN.
Ron Paul didn't and doesn't have the answers. He has a few good ideas, but most of what he advocated was the same as the rest of the R's: privatization of government services, eviceration of government programs, and tax policies aimed at continuing the status quo.
Watch this video:
17 Re: MOST OF OUR WEALTH DEPENDS ON DEBT 11/25/2012, 6:55 pm
ZVUGKTUBM
Floridatexan wrote:surfnrg wrote:There are not enough people not working for the government to pay for those who do work for the government.
wealth can only be created by the private sector. the public sector has to be smaller than the private.
it is REALLY that simple. Ron Paul gets it.
Until this changes we are going to go broke. simple.
What exactly do you think happened in 2008? One hand washed the other; the government colluded with big business, in particular those industries geared to profit from WAR. A propaganda machine and a revolving door between government and private industry, including massive handouts in the form of subsidies, grants, distorted tax policies, and then direct bailouts to the financial sector almost brought the economy down. It was theft on a monumental scale, and it could easily happen again. The vast majority of people suffered, but those at the top of the heap profited greatly and WILL TRY TO DO IT AGAIN.
Ron Paul didn't and doesn't have the answers. He has a few good ideas, but most of what he advocated was the same as the rest of the R's: privatization of government services, eviceration of government programs, and tax policies aimed at continuing the status quo.
Watch this video:
I beg to differ with you about Congressman Paul, FT. Big Government must shrink to get this nation's debt crisis under control. It has to shrink on both sides of the equation--the entitlement side, and the military/war/corporate side. It all has to shrink, and it will evolve downward on its own if we keep kicking the can further down the road.
One of Paul's tenets that I supported wholly was ending the Federal Reserve and reverting to a system of issuing debt-free money. He wrote a book about why the Fed needs to be ended (published 2009).
There is a lot of pain coming in the future, and it will likely hit Baby Boomers square in the face, because there is not enough money anywhere to pay for our full Social Security and Medicare. The first Millenials are making their way into Congress, and they are not going to cotton to putting their generation and those following them further into debt to finance our retirements. Social Security is not an unbreakable promise--Most Millenials already know they won't be getting much SS, so they will not feel bound to protecting it for us Boomers. Bluntly put, they will screw the seniors to help save the nation.
18 Re: MOST OF OUR WEALTH DEPENDS ON DEBT 11/25/2012, 8:14 pm
Markle
ZVUGKTUBM wrote:Floridatexan wrote:surfnrg wrote:There are not enough people not working for the government to pay for those who do work for the government.
wealth can only be created by the private sector. the public sector has to be smaller than the private.
it is REALLY that simple. Ron Paul gets it.
Until this changes we are going to go broke. simple.
What exactly do you think happened in 2008? One hand washed the other; the government colluded with big business, in particular those industries geared to profit from WAR. A propaganda machine and a revolving door between government and private industry, including massive handouts in the form of subsidies, grants, distorted tax policies, and then direct bailouts to the financial sector almost brought the economy down. It was theft on a monumental scale, and it could easily happen again. The vast majority of people suffered, but those at the top of the heap profited greatly and WILL TRY TO DO IT AGAIN.
Ron Paul didn't and doesn't have the answers. He has a few good ideas, but most of what he advocated was the same as the rest of the R's: privatization of government services, eviceration of government programs, and tax policies aimed at continuing the status quo.
Watch this video:
I beg to differ with you about Congressman Paul, FT. Big Government must shrink to get this nation's debt crisis under control. It has to shrink on both sides of the equation--the entitlement side, and the military/war/corporate side. It all has to shrink, and it will evolve downward on its own if we keep kicking the can further down the road.
One of Paul's tenets that I supported wholly was ending the Federal Reserve and reverting to a system of issuing debt-free money. He wrote a book about why the Fed needs to be ended (published 2009).
There is a lot of pain coming in the future, and it will likely hit Baby Boomers square in the face, because there is not enough money anywhere to pay for our full Social Security and Medicare. The first Millenials are making their way into Congress, and they are not going to cotton to putting their generation and those following them further into debt to finance our retirements. Social Security is not an unbreakable promise--Most Millenials already know they won't be getting much SS, so they will not feel bound to protecting it for us Boomers. Bluntly put, they will screw the seniors to help save the nation.
Social Security is a fairly easy fix.
Not so Medicare, Medicare Part "D", Medicaid and ObamaCare. More and more people are being encouraged to leave the workforce permanently by the increasing benefits to NOT work and increasing punishment to work.
See the results of this plan in Greece, Italy, Portugal, Spain, California and New York.
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