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We can't afford Medicare for all, or free college, but we've spent $5.6 trillion on war since 9-11

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[quote="Wordslinger"]
Hell, for $5.6 trillion we could have made everyone living in the Mideast too comfortable to die for Allah!


Yeah, we could have dropped bales of hundred dollar bills instead of bombs--just push 'em out the back of a C-130, maybe strap Kellyanne Conway to one of them. Sure would be fun to watch. Yee hah!

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5.6 trillion is way too conservative and does not pick up the future bill for all those on the government dole. They just added 10k personnel to the military above and beyond what President Trump wanted. This is insanity. The Military Industrial Complex and the 1% are stealing from our grandchildren and the worse part is we are a paper tiger who has spent the last 75 years fighting basically guerilla warfare. We are not prepared to fight a non third world nation as this myth that our carrier groups are invincible, yet one scout plane at Midway finding us first would have shown how putting all our eggs in one basket was fundamentally flawed in 1945 and absolutely F'd when we live in a world of satellite tracking. They know where our ships are all the time. They have made tactical nukes small which can come off a cruise missile, and get within a few miles and wipe our groups out. Are we going to send nukes to mainland China, Russia, Iran, or North Korea when they all can deliver second strike, and may have already delivered the same.

We are not prepared. We are going broke with a defense paradigm designed for profit, and not defense. The Hubris of this country in the early fifties in Korea, as the Chinese and Koreans drove us back down the peninsula and kicked our asz, yet kicking down doors in Iraq in occupation is where our preparedness is as our Navy runs into oil tankers, and our Air Force cannot handle delivery of a letter, let alone a competent first strike repeal. We are paying 100k for a Yugo, and then celebrating and honoring everybody associated with the purchase. Stupid is what stupid does.

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2seaoat wrote:5.6 trillion is way too conservative and does not pick up the future bill for all those on the government dole.  They just added 10k personnel to the military above and beyond what President Trump wanted.  This is insanity.  The Military Industrial Complex and the 1% are stealing from our grandchildren and the worse part is we are a paper tiger who has spent the last 75 years fighting basically guerilla warfare.  We are not prepared to fight a non third world nation as this myth that our carrier groups are invincible, yet one scout plane at Midway finding us first would have shown how putting all our eggs in one basket was fundamentally flawed in 1945 and absolutely F'd when we live in a world of satellite tracking.  They know where our ships are all the time.  They have made tactical nukes small which can come off a cruise missile, and get within a few miles and wipe our groups out.  Are we going to send nukes to mainland China, Russia, Iran, or North Korea when they all can deliver second strike, and may have already delivered the same.

We are not prepared.  We are going broke with a defense paradigm designed for profit, and not defense.  The Hubris of this country in the early fifties in Korea, as the Chinese and Koreans drove us back down the peninsula and kicked our asz, yet kicking down doors in Iraq in occupation is where our preparedness is as our Navy runs into oil tankers, and our Air Force cannot handle delivery of a letter, let alone a competent first strike repeal.   We are paying 100k for a Yugo, and then celebrating and honoring everybody associated with the purchase.  Stupid is what stupid does.


cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers

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2seaoat wrote:...the future bill for all those on the government dole.

Sometimes you sound like a real asshole, Seaoat. You seem to forget the G.I. bill after WWII. That worked out okay and we still managed to afford the Marshall Plan and then the space program. Veterans deserve every penny and bennie they get and then some. Veterans ought to get $50 a month for life, no strings attached, for every month they spend in a combat zone. More if they they face "hostile fire or imminent danger", the DoD description for the Combat Infantryman Badge.

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Sometimes you sound like a real asshole, Seaoat.

They said that about Billy Mitchell. Militarism and the battleship have many things in common, but the one which is most important is that neither can effectively resolve conflict. Of course the kid who said the emperor had no clothes was shocking the sheep with his innocent comment. It is a fact. The military has become a mercenary vocation which makes profits for MIC and self perpetrates the illusion that the new fangled battleship(high profit top end complicated technology which is thought to be invincible) they have constructed with our tax dollars will actually protect America.....Trump is a flim flam man, but long before he was near the White House, the military has convinced America that folks in America are safe, and that the biggest threat to America is some criminals who live in a hubble in Iraq and who might kill 70 Americans a year by instigating lone wolves, while thirty or forty million Americans are raw meat for nation states who think we are a paper tiger while we kill millions of innocents in third world nations.....yep....I am the aszhole.

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2seaoat wrote:Sometimes you sound like a real asshole, Seaoat.

They said that about Billy Mitchell.  Militarism and the battleship have many things in common, but the one which is most important is that neither can effectively resolve conflict.  Of course the kid who said the emperor had no clothes was shocking the sheep with his innocent comment.  It is a fact.  The military has become a mercenary vocation which makes profits for MIC and self perpetrates the illusion that the new fangled battleship(high profit top end complicated technology which is thought to be invincible) they have constructed with our tax dollars will actually protect America.....Trump is a flim flam man, but long before he was near the White House, the military has convinced America that folks in America are safe, and that the biggest threat to America is some criminals who live in a hubble in Iraq and who might kill 70 Americans a year by instigating lone wolves, while thirty or forty million Americans are raw meat for nation states who think we are a paper tiger while we kill millions of innocents in third world nations.....yep....I am the aszhole.

I was referencing your "on the dole" comment--that's why I put it in the quote box--not the rest of it. I agree with some of your MIC rant--not all but some. I just found that "on the dole" comment particularly infuriating.

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I was referencing your "on the dole" comment, not the rest of it.

If there is a draft, America will be repulsed by the unnecessary death perpetrated on our kids and the world. However, as long as we allow the MIC to exploit kids who do not have options by joining the mercenaries who are not protecting their country(because there has not been a real threat to this nation since wwII.) we will become the very thing our founding father's feared and Ike warned us about. There is not a bit of difference in Military welfare, corporate welfare, or general welfare paid to citizens as they all depend on the taxpayers to support them rather than contributing to our GDP by hard private sector work which grows our economy......not sucks the life from the same.

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2seaoat wrote:If there is a draft, America will be repulsed by the unnecessary death perpetrated on our kids and the world.  However, as long as we allow the MIC to exploit kids who do not have options by joining the mercenaries who are not protecting their country(because there has not been a real threat to this nation since wwII.) we will become the very thing our founding father's feared and Ike warned us about.  There is not a bit of difference in Military welfare, corporate welfare, or general welfare paid to citizens as they all depend on the taxpayers to support them rather than contributing to our GDP by hard private sector work which grows our economy......not sucks the life from the same.

You've argued for a re-institution of the draft to equalize the effect of military service on all social classes and at the same time squawked about the size of the military. How big do you think the Army will be if we start drafting EVERYONE! They're mutually exclusive. DUH!

Now I finally understand what Dotard means.

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I don't necessarily agree with this... but it adds another perspective. Particularly if we still interfere in the ME.

http://www.pressconnects.com/story/opinion/columnists/2017/10/27/need-private-military-contractors/107073714/

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PkrBum wrote:I don't necessarily agree with this... but it adds another perspective. Particularly if we still interfere in the ME.

http://www.pressconnects.com/story/opinion/columnists/2017/10/27/need-private-military-contractors/107073714/


Read it, thanks.  But the important question deals with the politicians who direct war and use our mercenaries (U.S. Military forces) or Blackwater's.  If one is to believe the article, Blackwater appears to be cheaper and more effective than using our military forces.  

The issue is non-ending, murderous wars that waste guilty and innocent lives and make the U.S. appear to be a warring, brutal and savage country. Let's face it, our State Department has never been in the business of making friends.  Except for WWII, since 1898 our foreign policy has used brute force to control areas across the world for profit, or to steal resources.  The problem is centered on the process of allowing elected politicians to be goaded, bribed and ordered about by oligarchs.  Once again, the deciding issue is how we've allowed corrupt campaign financing and outright political bribes to direct our foreign policy.  Whenever you see the words "in our national interest," you know it's big business directing our elected officials from the president on down.  

Reality.

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2seaoat wrote:I was referencing your "on the dole" comment, not the rest of it.

If there is a draft, America will be repulsed by the unnecessary death perpetrated on our kids and the world.  However, as long as we allow the MIC to exploit kids who do not have options by joining the mercenaries who are not protecting their country(because there has not been a real threat to this nation since wwII.) we will become the very thing our founding father's feared and Ike warned us about.  There is not a bit of difference in Military welfare, corporate welfare, or general welfare paid to citizens as they all depend on the taxpayers to support them rather than contributing to our GDP by hard private sector work which grows our economy......not sucks the life from the same.

But NEVER a peep out of you about "general welfare" - it's obvious you are bitter and biased toward all things Military - a segment of the country of which you obviously don't understand........

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gatorfan wrote:
2seaoat wrote:I was referencing your "on the dole" comment, not the rest of it.

If there is a draft, America will be repulsed by the unnecessary death perpetrated on our kids and the world.  However, as long as we allow the MIC to exploit kids who do not have options by joining the mercenaries who are not protecting their country(because there has not been a real threat to this nation since wwII.) we will become the very thing our founding father's feared and Ike warned us about.  There is not a bit of difference in Military welfare, corporate welfare, or general welfare paid to citizens as they all depend on the taxpayers to support them rather than contributing to our GDP by hard private sector work which grows our economy......not sucks the life from the same.

But NEVER a peep out of you about "general welfare" - it's obvious you are bitter and biased toward all things Military - a segment of the country of which you obviously don't understand........

I disagree with you about Seaoat's regard for things Military. I'm a vet and a writer whose latest book -- a non fiction work that exposes the outright greed and thirst for profit that was behind our invasion of Cuba, and the Philippines at the turn of the last century. What I understand very well about our military is that our generals are totally puppets of their politician bosses and the MIC, we haven't won a war since WWII, and all our current military personnel are volunteers -- i.e. -- mercenaries in the employ of politicians owned through corrupt campaign financing. No wonder we never win wars anymore! Truth is, our government spends troop's woundings and lives like water -- and always for regional political control and/or theft of resources in every case where we are involved in combat.

Seaoat is 100% correct about why there's no draft.
Reality.

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Wordslinger wrote:
gatorfan wrote:
2seaoat wrote:I was referencing your "on the dole" comment, not the rest of it.

If there is a draft, America will be repulsed by the unnecessary death perpetrated on our kids and the world.  However, as long as we allow the MIC to exploit kids who do not have options by joining the mercenaries who are not protecting their country(because there has not been a real threat to this nation since wwII.) we will become the very thing our founding father's feared and Ike warned us about.  There is not a bit of difference in Military welfare, corporate welfare, or general welfare paid to citizens as they all depend on the taxpayers to support them rather than contributing to our GDP by hard private sector work which grows our economy......not sucks the life from the same.

But NEVER a peep out of you about "general welfare" - it's obvious you are bitter and biased toward all things Military - a segment of the country of which you obviously don't understand........

I disagree with you about Seaoat's regard for things Military.  I'm a vet and a writer whose latest book -- a non fiction work that exposes the outright greed and thirst for profit that was behind our invasion of Cuba, and the Philippines at the turn of the last century.  What I understand very well about our military is that our generals are totally puppets of their politician bosses and the MIC, we haven't won a war since WWII, and all our current military personnel are volunteers -- i.e. -- mercenaries in the employ of politicians owned through corrupt campaign financing.  No wonder we never win wars anymore!  Truth is, our government spends troop's woundings and lives like water -- and always for regional political control and/or theft of resources in every case where we are involved in combat.  

Seaoat is 100% correct about why there's no draft.
Reality.

2SOs misconceptions run a lot deeper than the MIC and the puppeteer military leadership. Face it, most senior officers (flags, generals, etc) make rank BECAUSE they are ass sucking politicians. 2SO also thinks people join the military because they are losers and once in aren't contributing to the GDP. He doesn't understand the military at all and thinks everyone in the nation (enjoys) enjoyed the same advantages he did at a young age. Most of the kids who join today want to learn a trade/skill (mostly NOT available where they grew up or they can't afford school beyond high school) and want to further their education. They are far from being on the "government dole" unlike welfare rats who raise their kids to be welfare rats too.

And BTW, we did win the "war" against Iraq in Desert Storm (yes I was there for that adventure) and stopped when they were driven out of Kuwait. That was the right thing - Bush Jr later made a SERIOUS error destroying Iraq and it's army. That enabled Iran to run loose and look where we are now. The hole just gets deeper and I place the blame squarely at the feet of inept politicians who are responsible for directing military action.

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2017 our war is economics.

Not a war you win with tanks and guns, but one you win with education and business acumen.

We waste our $ defending against and ghost enemy.

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panhandler wrote:2017 our war is economics.  

Not a war you win with tanks and guns, but one you win with education and business acumen.

We waste our $ defending against and ghost enemy.

Then dems need to understand a few things. Tax cuts largely benefit those that pay taxes. Long term job creation requires private capital. Corporate taxes are basically consumption taxes... called corporate taxes for useful idiots... see: results. An employee is hired to make a profit for the business. Opportunity requires effort... it's not a guarantee or a "give away".

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gatorfan wrote:
Wordslinger wrote:
gatorfan wrote:
2seaoat wrote:I was referencing your "on the dole" comment, not the rest of it.

If there is a draft, America will be repulsed by the unnecessary death perpetrated on our kids and the world.  However, as long as we allow the MIC to exploit kids who do not have options by joining the mercenaries who are not protecting their country(because there has not been a real threat to this nation since wwII.) we will become the very thing our founding father's feared and Ike warned us about.  There is not a bit of difference in Military welfare, corporate welfare, or general welfare paid to citizens as they all depend on the taxpayers to support them rather than contributing to our GDP by hard private sector work which grows our economy......not sucks the life from the same.

But NEVER a peep out of you about "general welfare" - it's obvious you are bitter and biased toward all things Military - a segment of the country of which you obviously don't understand........

I disagree with you about Seaoat's regard for things Military.  I'm a vet and a writer whose latest book -- a non fiction work that exposes the outright greed and thirst for profit that was behind our invasion of Cuba, and the Philippines at the turn of the last century.  What I understand very well about our military is that our generals are totally puppets of their politician bosses and the MIC, we haven't won a war since WWII, and all our current military personnel are volunteers -- i.e. -- mercenaries in the employ of politicians owned through corrupt campaign financing.  No wonder we never win wars anymore!  Truth is, our government spends troop's woundings and lives like water -- and always for regional political control and/or theft of resources in every case where we are involved in combat.  

Seaoat is 100% correct about why there's no draft.
Reality.

2SOs misconceptions run a lot deeper than the MIC and the puppeteer military leadership. Face it, most senior officers (flags, generals, etc) make rank BECAUSE they are ass sucking politicians. 2SO also thinks people join the military because they are losers and once in aren't contributing to the GDP. He doesn't understand the military at all and thinks everyone in the nation (enjoys) enjoyed the same advantages he did at a young age. Most of the kids who join today want to learn a trade/skill (mostly NOT available where they grew up or they can't afford school beyond high school) and want to further their education. They are far from being on the "government dole" unlike welfare rats who raise their kids to be welfare rats too.

And BTW, we did win the "war" against Iraq in Desert Storm (yes I was there for that adventure) and stopped when they were driven out of Kuwait. That was the right thing - Bush Jr later made a SERIOUS error destroying Iraq and it's army. That enabled Iran to run loose and look where we are now. The hole just gets deeper and I place the blame squarely at the feet of inept politicians who are responsible for directing military action.

I fail to see where you and I disagree much. I am curious though to know what percentage of new recruits join up for the economic and educational opportunities, vs. those who see themselves as Gung Ho patriots ... Thanks

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PkrBum wrote:
panhandler wrote:2017 our war is economics.  

Not a war you win with tanks and guns, but one you win with education and business acumen.

We waste our $ defending against and ghost enemy.

Then dems need to understand a few things. Tax cuts largely benefit those that pay taxes. Long term job creation requires private capital. Corporate taxes are basically consumption taxes... called corporate taxes for useful idiots... see: results. An employee is hired to make a profit for the business. Opportunity requires effort... it's not a guarantee or a "give away".

And when profit occurs, it is rightfully taxed. Thats not any way a consumption tax.

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panhandler wrote:
PkrBum wrote:
panhandler wrote:2017 our war is economics.  

Not a war you win with tanks and guns, but one you win with education and business acumen.

We waste our $ defending against and ghost enemy.

Then dems need to understand a few things. Tax cuts largely benefit those that pay taxes. Long term job creation requires private capital. Corporate taxes are basically consumption taxes... called corporate taxes for useful idiots... see: results. An employee is hired to make a profit for the business. Opportunity requires effort... it's not a guarantee or a "give away".

And when profit occurs, it is rightfully taxed.    Thats not any way a consumption tax.

If you were to create a model for a business idea... how would you calculate for corporate tax?

Wouldn't it affect your unit price? What if the tax were raised... or lowered? Results matter... not labels.

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Deus X wrote:
2seaoat wrote:Sometimes you sound like a real asshole, Seaoat.

They said that about Billy Mitchell.  Militarism and the battleship have many things in common, but the one which is most important is that neither can effectively resolve conflict.  Of course the kid who said the emperor had no clothes was shocking the sheep with his innocent comment.  It is a fact.  The military has become a mercenary vocation which makes profits for MIC and self perpetrates the illusion that the new fangled battleship(high profit top end complicated technology which is thought to be invincible) they have constructed with our tax dollars will actually protect America.....Trump is a flim flam man, but long before he was near the White House, the military has convinced America that folks in America are safe, and that the biggest threat to America is some criminals who live in a hubble in Iraq and who might kill 70 Americans a year by instigating lone wolves, while thirty or forty million Americans are raw meat for nation states who think we are a paper tiger while we kill millions of innocents in third world nations.....yep....I am the aszhole.

I was referencing your "on the dole" comment--that's why I put it in the quote box--not the rest of it. I agree with some of your MIC rant--not all but some. I just found that "on the dole" comment particularly infuriating.

I don't think he's talking about benefits for service members. I have a niece in Panama City who's married to a retiree. He's working for a defense contractor and making several times the pay he made in the service. Then we have the mercenaries like Erik Prince who worked extensively in Bush's wars, and who would like to cash in on whatever conflict they can.

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