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My memories of Katrina 10 years ago

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Vikingwoman
TEOTWAWKI
dumpcare
EmeraldGhost
Hospital Bob
2seaoat
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2seaoat wrote:Blanco was the cause of the lack of federal response. She refused it.



Her inaction killed people, but this was entirely the fault of the Army Corps of Engineers because without the failure in design and construction of the levees few would have died.

Why don't we return to the founding and building of New Orleans. Who was the wise guy who decided a city below sea level would work? And the draw to live there???

Same as anyone who builds a house on the shoreline. Pretty view until the hurricane hits.

2seaoat



Almost 50% of Americas exports go through NO. It is a strategic and critical city. As the brain trust at the Army Corps of Engineers built an entire levee system in the Mississippi flood plain channel great volume of water into NO, they stopped the lowlands floodplain along the entire Mississippi which were wetlands which absorbed much of the water and released it slowly. So when the Army Corps began maintaining and overseeing the levee system, they had a duty to do their job competently. I am friends with the Illinois commander of the National Guard during the 1993 Mississippi river floods which took out western Illinois because of Levee failures where known weaknesses in design and maintenance took out entire towns. He was furious with their incompetence. My dealings with them is that they are an archaic and out of touch organization that requires a top to bottom restructuring. They are solely responsible for the deaths in NO......when I tell my story about calling the Rock Island branch of the Army Corps, this is a real story and the incompetence was absolutely being shown on TV trying to fill a moving river with rock....idiocy, and the chain of command is entirely incompetent. The engineers in Illinois agreed. We need a top to bottom shake up before we can even do an objective assessment of the failings of this organization over the last fifty years. My dealings with the downtown Pensacola folks is just more of the same. All over this country Congress passing more intrusive laws and these incompetent folks consistently screwing up even the most simple project.

Joanimaroni

Joanimaroni

Nagin knew the majority of poor residents did not have transportation or money to evacuate. He refused warnings by the weather service to call for a timely evacuation. He did not want to ruin tourism. He opened the dome for evacuees knowing full well it was not a designated shelter with emergency supplies.

2seaoat



Everybody could have stayed in NO and had a shrimp gumbo, they all would have lived. The Hurricane destroyed Mississippi.....it barely hit NO. Except one thing.....the Army Corps of Engineers failed in their mission and the city drowned days after the Hurricane as the sun was shining. Revisionist history will not change a thing....yes there was incompetent politicians at mayor, governor, and President, but those folks did not kill the people.....the Army Corps of Engineers did. The faulty construction of the canal walls was identified and the Corps knew the same.

EmeraldGhost

EmeraldGhost

SheWrites wrote:  Who was the wise guy who decided a city below sea level would work?  

No expert on this .... but my understanding is the original city was built on the high-ground .... it later spread out into the swamps as the population increased.  

As I recall the French Quarter & downtown did not get much flooding compared to other parts of the city.

Now for a crude conservative joke:  
Who says people in Louisiana are stupid?   They put most of their liberals in a city 10 feet below sea level located in a hurricane prone coastal area.

Markle

Markle

2seaoat wrote:Oh, what was it you wanted to know about Fair Housing Law?  I have taught that around the country for the National Association of Realtors.


Now that is ironic in so many ways.  All over the country you say, and you did not know what a managing broker was......the sweetest irony is you talking about fair housing law......I will giggle myself to sleep tonight.


So, nothing...again.

Markle

Markle

2seaoat wrote:Nice try.  The jurisdiction over the levees and protection of NO is with the Army Corps of Engineers.  The design, inspection, and construction of the levees are the jurisdiction of the Army Corps of engineers and their jurisdiction supersedes state and local governments and ALL PROJECTS MUST BE APPROVED AND PERMITTED BY THE ACE.

When a state or local government starts any project in the Navigable waters of the United States the Army Corps controls....duh.

As you know, the Corps of Engineers does not spend the money, they make and design their recommendations.

They said for decades that the levees would not survive a large storm and were ignored by the LEVEE COMMISSIONS in New Orleans while they build bridges, parks and monuments to themselves.


Markle

Markle

2seaoat wrote: Everybody could have stayed in NO and had a shrimp gumbo, they all would have lived.  The Hurricane destroyed Mississippi.....it barely hit NO.  Except one thing.....the Army Corps of Engineers failed in their mission and the city drowned days after the Hurricane as the sun was shining.   Revisionist history will not change a thing....yes there was incompetent politicians at mayor, governor, and President, but those folks did not kill the people.....the Army Corps of Engineers did.  The faulty construction of the canal walls was identified and the Corps knew the same.

More meds?

The Hurricane did, indeed, do far more damage to Mississippi. The only difference was in how REPUBLICAN GOV. HALEY BARBOUR handled the disaster and the DEMOCRATS next door.

Markle

Markle

EmeraldGhost wrote:
SheWrites wrote:  Who was the wise guy who decided a city below sea level would work?  

No expert on this .... but my understanding is the original city was built on the high-ground .... it later spread out into the swamps as the population increased.  

As I recall the French Quarter & downtown did not get much flooding compared to other parts of the city.

Now for a crude conservative joke:  
Who says people in Louisiana are stupid?   They put most of their liberals in a city 10 feet below sea level located in a hurricane prone coastal area.

Corrupt Dan Rather even said he was watching a body float down Bourbon Street from his hotel room.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

The pre-Katrina levee system was built by the Corp only as a result of the severe flooding of New Orleans caused by Hurricane Betsy in 1965.
Before that the city was really vulnerable.

When it comes to natural disasters of all kinds, the general rule is we don't spend the money to prevent something from happening until ONLY AFTER we learn it the hard way.
But in this case there apparently is valid evidence that the Army Corp of Engineers did not do a competent job.
Of course seaoat is shocked by that because seaoat's generally a champion of big government. Join the club, seaoat. lol

2seaoat



But in this case there apparently is valid evidence that the Army Corp of Engineers did not do a competent job.
Of course seaoat is shocked by that because seaoat's generally a champion of big government. Join the club, seaoat. lol



The Army Corps of Engineers was responsible for thousands of deaths and billions of dollars of unnecessary loss. Most of their engineers are incredibly incompetent, and I have found that in multiple field offices. In regard to trying to fill the breach, this was the typical Army Corps response. Utter incompetence, and while they dilly dallied about, more people died. I am probably the only person on this forum who has regularly challenged big government and government incompetence for 35 years, and as a result changed behavior. Government in America for the most part is incredibly competent, but when it is not, people often die. However, good people who sit back and allow incompetence and evil breed because of lack involvement get what they deserve in their government.

Joanimaroni

Joanimaroni

2seaoat wrote:But in this case there apparently is valid evidence that the Army Corp of Engineers did not do a competent job.
Of course seaoat is shocked by that because seaoat's generally a champion of big government. Join the club, seaoat. lol



The Army Corps of Engineers was responsible for thousands of deaths and billions of dollars of unnecessary loss.  Most of their engineers are incredibly incompetent, and I have found that in multiple field offices.  In regard to trying to fill the breach, this was the typical Army Corps response.  Utter incompetence, and while they dilly dallied about, more people died.  I am probably the only person on this forum who has regularly challenged big government and government incompetence for 35 years, and as a result changed behavior.    Government in America for the most part is incredibly competent, but when it is not, people often die.   However, good people who sit back and allow incompetence and evil breed because of lack involvement get what they deserve in their government.


Why is the Army Corp responsible? Did they tell the people of NO not to evacuate?

2seaoat



Why is the Army Corp responsible? Did they tell the people of NO not to evacuate?

Nobody should have evacuated if they did their job.  The zone of impact with the highest surges were Biloxi and Gulfport on the MS coast which were 79 miles to the east of NO on Interstate 10 or over an hour and twenty minute ride.  The actual Hurricane related deaths were zero......the deaths were from a man made catastrophe of floods caused by the incompetency in the Army Corps of Engineers.  The storm surges and hurricane is NOT what killed people in NO.....and the incompetent mayor, governor, and president may have compounded the deaths by utter incompetency, but the buck stops on Army Corps of Engineers romper room desk.

Markle

Markle

Bob wrote:The pre-Katrina levee system was built by the Corp only as a result of the severe flooding of New Orleans caused by Hurricane Betsy in 1965.
Before that the city was really vulnerable.

When it comes to natural disasters of all kinds,  the general rule is we don't spend the money to prevent something from happening until ONLY AFTER we learn it the hard way.  
But in this case there apparently is valid evidence that the Army Corp of Engineers did not do a competent job.  
Of course seaoat is shocked by that because seaoat's generally a champion of big government.  Join the club,  seaoat.  lol

As you well know, the money was made available to New Orleans and the corrupt, from top to bottom city spent the money for things other than the levies. They were told this would happen. Did they do anything? NOOOOO.

Markle

Markle

2seaoat wrote:Why is the Army Corp responsible? Did they tell the people of NO not to evacuate?

Nobody should have evacuated if they did their job.  The zone of impact with the highest surges were Biloxi and Gulfport on the MS coast which were 79 miles to the east of NO on Interstate 10 or over an hour and twenty minute ride.  The actual Hurricane related deaths were zero......the deaths were from a man made catastrophe of floods caused by the incompetency in the Army Corps of Engineers.  The storm surges and hurricane is NOT what killed people in NO.....and the incompetent mayor, governor, and president may have compounded the deaths by utter incompetency, but the buck stops on Army Corps of Engineers romper room desk.

TOTAL...FABRICATION.

2seaoat



TOTAL...FABRICATION.


No that would be you saying you are a real estate professional and did not know about managing brokers.......Teaching fair housing law and you do not even have a cursory understanding of the first amendment.....you are amusing in your current state.

2seaoat



Available for logged-in reporters only
Citations
Risk Analysis

Newswise — A new study has found that 67% of the fatalities in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina hit in August 2005 resulted from direct impacts of the flooding that occurred when the levees collapsed. Most of the deaths were caused by drowning or physical trauma from debris or building collapse. Some victims who remained in the flood zone in attics or floors that were not flooded died from adverse conditions associated with extended exposure including dehydration, heat stroke, heart attacks, strokes or other conditions associated with lack of medical supplies.

In all, 518 out of the analyzed 771 deaths in New Orleans resulted from direct exposure to the flooding, according to the results of the study "Loss of Life Caused by the Flooding of New Orleans After Hurricane Katrina: Analysis of the Relationship Between Flood Characteristics and Mortality," which is reported in the May issue of the peer-reviewed journal Risk Analysis, published by the Society for Risk Analysis.

Another 106 deaths were indirect and occurred in public shelters and hospitals in the flooded area. These fatalities were due to lack of necessary medical services, chronic conditions, stress-induced heart attacks or strokes or violence, according to Sebastiaan Jonkman at the University of Delft in The Netherlands and co-authors from Louisiana State University (LSU). The remaining 147 deaths occurred outside of the flooded area. Jonkman and his colleagues found that disease and toxic contamination caused by the flooding did not contribute significantly to the fatality rate.

"The elderly were the most vulnerable. Nearly 60% of fatalities were over 60 years and 85% were over 51 years," Jonkman's team found. He believes that this was due to elderly people's inability to evacuate easily and their vulnerability if they stayed and tried to survive the hazards of an event of this magnitude.
Mortality rates were highest in areas near levee breaches, particularly the severe breaches in the Lower 9th Ward where flooding occurred extremely rapidly and the velocity of the water caused drowning and collapsed bui

The research team describes their results as preliminary because the mortality data are incomplete and some of the flooding characteristics are based on simulations. However, they believe that despite the limitations, the results provide important insights into the relationship between flood characteristics and mortality. In particular, contrary to current theory, they found that the Katrina flood was very comparable to historical large-scale floods, including the number of people killed. "Overall, the available data for New Orleans do not support the claim that mortality among those exposed during a contemporary flood event is lower than during historical events," Jonkman explained.

Based on this study, he said that "more specific disaster management strategies are needed to target elderly populations and that the direct impacts of large flooding events can be reduced with improved preparation of health care facilities and systems in and outside of flood-prone areas."


Please note that the 167 deaths were outside NO but in La and probably closer to the MS border. The people in NO died from flooding and the aftermath of flooding.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

I still don't understand from anything you've written why the forecasters at the National Hurricane Center are to blame for this.

Do you think less death and damage would have occurred if there was no such a thing as the NHC? And instead we just use darts and dartboards to decide when we'll experience extreme weather? And I'm not being facetious, because that's exactly what you compared it too.

Markle

Markle

Bob wrote:The pre-Katrina levee system was built by the Corp only as a result of the severe flooding of New Orleans caused by Hurricane Betsy in 1965.
Before that the city was really vulnerable.

When it comes to natural disasters of all kinds,  the general rule is we don't spend the money to prevent something from happening until ONLY AFTER we learn it the hard way.  
But in this case there apparently is valid evidence that the Army Corp of Engineers did not do a competent job.  
Of course seaoat is shocked by that because seaoat's generally a champion of big government.  Join the club,  seaoat.  lol

New Orleans' levee commissions did not spend the money they were awarded in grants to improves their levee system. They told New Orleans this would happen if they were not improved. They were right, corrupt New Orleans refused.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

Markle wrote:
Bob wrote:

New Orleans' levee commissions did not spend the money they were awarded in grants to improves their levee system.  They told New Orleans this would happen if they were not improved.  They were right, corrupt New Orleans refused.

New Orleans and the rest of south louisiana has always been among the most corrupt governments in the country.  They even used to celebrate that distinction.
What would be news is if there wasn't any corruption involved with those levees or anything else for that matter.

Joanimaroni

Joanimaroni

Bob wrote:I still don't understand from anything you've written why the forecasters at the National Hurricane Center are to blame for this.  

Do you think less death and damage would have occurred if there was no such a thing as the NHC?  And instead we just use darts and dartboards to decide when we'll experience extreme weather?  And I'm not being facetious,  because that's exactly what you compared it too.  

The National Hurricane Center gave numerous warnings and continued to urge NO officials to call for an immediate evacuation. Nagin waited until the last minute, a 24 hour notice.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

Joanimaroni wrote:

The National Hurricane Center gave numerous warnings and continued to urge NO officials to call for an immediate evacuation. Nagin waited until the last minute, a 24 hour notice.

Seaoat blames it all on the NHC putting New Orleans in the Ivan cone the year earlier.
Two days before landfall,  the forecast had New Orleans inside the cone.  Here's that forecast...

My memories of Katrina 10 years ago - Page 4 Ivan_211

It should be pointed out,  that the center of the track here was the closest the forecasters ever put it to New Orleans.  But New Orleans was within the cone of uncertainty in the forecast.

So the forecasters had two choices.  They could either tell the public "don't worry cause you'll be on the left side of the hurricane,  the weak side",
OR they could have considered the fact that those levees had never yet been tested by a hurricane of this magnitude (it was at category 4 at this time),  and since they couldn't be certain of what to expect,  they needed to issue an evacuation because it might be the only thing that could potentially save tens of thousands of lives.
According to seaoat,  I guess they made the wrong choice.
And that led to a mass evacuation with a lot of big hairy traffic jams on I-10 that resulted in a false alarm. So after that false alarm the year earlier, more people rode it out for Katrina.

Markle

Markle

2seaoat, who simply wants something to do, posts...misinformation about Hurricane Katrina.
Once again, 2seaoats version of what happened...and what happened...are two very different things.

City had evacuation plan but strayed from strategy

By LISE OLSEN
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle

Cancer patient Earl Robicheaux, his immune system depleted by radical chemotherapy, lay in a hospital bed as Hurricane Katrina bore down on New Orleans.

Trying to leave, he thought, seemed suicidal.

But after four days in the hospital's reeking darkness, he escaped via a Black Hawk helicopter that landed on the roof of the University Hospital under heavy guard because of the threat of sniper fire.

It was not the evacuation plan authorities had envisioned for its sick, its elderly and its poor. As the floodwaters recede, serious questions remain about whether New Orleans and Louisiana officials followed their own plans for evacuating people with no other way out.

The mayor's mandatory evacuation order was issued 20 hours before the storm struck the Louisiana coast, less than half the time researchers determined would be needed to get everyone out.

City officials had 550 municipal buses and hundreds of additional school buses at their disposal but made no plans to use them to get people out of New Orleans before the storm,
said Chester Wilmot, a civil engineering professor at Louisiana State University and an expert in transportation planning, who helped the city put together its evacuation plan.

Instead, local buses were used to ferry people from 12 pickup points to poorly supplied "shelters of last resort" in the city. An estimated 50,000 New Orleans households have no access to cars, Wilmot said.

State and local plans both called for extra help to be provided in advance to residents with "special needs," though no specific timetable was prepared. But phone lines for people who needed specialized shelters opened at noon Saturday — barely 30 hours before Katrina came ashore in Louisiana.

Many people from New Orleans ended up staying home or using a "last resort" special needs shelter state authorities and the city health department set up at the Superdome. Those who made it out of town initially found limited space. The state of Louisiana provided shelter in Baton Rouge and five other cities for a total of about 1,000.

In the city of New Orleans alone, more than 100,000 of the city's residents described themselves as disabled in a recent U.S. census.

Early mistakes
Hospitals were exempted from the mayor's mandatory evacuation order. But at least two public hospitals, loaded with more than 1,000 caregivers and patients, had their generators in their basements, which made them vulnerable in a flood. That violated the state's hurricane plan but had gone uncorrected for years because the hospitals did not have the money to fix the situation, a state university hospital official told the Chronicle.
The consequences came to bear in the images hours and days later: Elderly people dying outside shelters and hospitals that were losing power and, finally, their patients. Now, hurricane evacuation experts around the country are asking why New Orleans failed to prepare for the flood scenario from a Category 4 or 5 hurricane.

"Everybody knew about it. There's no excuse for not having a plan," said Jay Baker, a Florida State University associate professor who is an expert in hurricane evacuations and is familiar with New Orleans hurricane studies.

Tami Frazier, a spokeswoman for Mayor C. Ray Nagin, currently working out of Houston, refused to comment on direct questions this week or to answer several written questions sent via e-mail. She cited the need to focus on rescuing citizens and recovering bodies.

Robicheaux, the cancer patient who was trapped in a downtown New Orleans hospital, said he thought the city "decided basically to let it ride."

"When you're in a city like New York and there's a big snowstorm, you expect them to have plows. That's not the way it is here. There are no resources to stockpile supplies."

Saturday evening, Hurricane Katrina had intensified to Category 4, with the possibility that it could strike land as a killer Category 5 storm.

About 8 p.m., Mayor Nagin fielded an unusual personal call at home from Max Mayfield, director of the National Hurricane Center, who wanted to be sure Nagin knew what was coming.

Still, Nagin waited to issue a mandatory evacuation, apparently because of legal complications, said Frazier. She said the city attorney was unavailable for an interview to explain.

But Kris Wartelle, spokeswoman for the attorney general of Louisiana, said state law clearly gives the mayor the authority to "direct and compel the evacuation of all or part of the population from any stricken or threatened area."

"They're not confused about it. He had the authority to do it," Wartelle said.

The mandatory evacuation order came at 10 a.m Sunday.

Former Kemah Mayor Bill King, who has spent years trying to boost funding and organization for hurricanes planning in the Houston-Galveston area, said Nagin's decision to wait to order people out compounded the tragedy.

"To call an evacuation on Sunday morning when the storm was going to hit on Monday morning at 6 a.m. is just ... negligence," King said. "If he'd called it better than that he would have saved lives."


Read more: http://www.chron.com/news/hurricanes/article/New-Orleans-strayed-from-evacuation-plan-1491205.php

2seaoat



You do not have to worry about donkey maps and darts, incompetent political leadership, but only have to focus on the deaths were almost entirely due to drowning on the failed levee system under the direct construction or supervision of Army Corps of Engineers.....it really is this simple.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

2seaoat wrote:donkey maps and darts

Question.

If the science of  meteorology is a complete fraud and no more valid than darts and donkey maps,  then why should we believe the science of climatology is any different?  What's so special about that one?

Is it because climatology is a democrat science and meteorology is republican,  so one can be trusted and the other can't?  Or what exactly?

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