Michael Jordan

Joanimaroni wrote:Statistics can be manipulated to prove anything.....kinda like rationalizing.  

In what way have statistics been manipulated?  There are stats that are commonly used to compare players.  I posted those.  

When you say "statistics can be manipulated", you imply that I am messing around with the numbers in some way.  In reality, I'm not.  I simply posted the stats from the year that Rose won the MVP as example of what I was saying.  People get tired of giving the MVP to the same player every year.  If they didn't, Jordan would have won the MVP almost every year that he played and Lebron would have as well.  There is simply no rational argument to be made for Rose as the MVP over LeBron outside of the fact that they had already given it to LeBron for the previous two years and wanted to give it to someone else for a change.

Yeah.  Derrick Rose.  A small point guard who looks to be 60 lbs when he's wet and wearing boots, a guy who shoots in the 30% range from the field and relies on making it to the foul line, a guy who underperformed statistically against LeBron in almost every measurable category, a guy who was shut down and eliminated from the playoffs by the Heat in spite of having homecourt advantage....deserved to win the MVP in the 10-11 season.  Cough cough.

2seaoat wrote:Statistics can be manipulated to prove anything.....kinda like rationalizing.


They can, but championships cannot.

LeBron's career could end today and I would still be more impressed with him than Jordan.  There are probably 4 or 5 players that - if we were to put them on that Bulls team in place of Jordan - would have won just as many rings.  That team was one for the ages even without Jordan.

Which quarterback is better:  Brad Johnson or Dan Marino?

Which quarterback is better: Trent Dilfer or Dan Marino?

All of these players are better than Jordan if rings are the end all stat:

Bill Russell, Sam Jones, Tom Heinsohn, K. C. Jones, Tom Sanders, John Havlicek, Jim Loscutoff, Frank Ramsey, and Robert Horry.

This guy is better than Jordan based upon the "who has more rings" argument:

boards of FL wrote:

Joanimaroni wrote:Statistics can be manipulated to prove anything.....kinda like rationalizing.  

In what way have statistics been manipulated?  There are stats that are commonly used to compare players.  I posted those.  

When you say "statistics can be manipulated", you imply that I am messing around with the numbers in some way.  In reality, I'm not.  I simply posted the stats from the year that Rose won the MVP as example of what I was saying.  People get tired of giving the MVP to the same player every year.  If they didn't, Jordan would have won the MVP almost every year that he played and Lebron would have as well.  There is simply no rational argument to be made for Rose as the MVP over LeBron outside of the fact that they had already given it to LeBron for the previous two years and wanted to give it to someone else for a change.

Yeah.  Derrick Rose.  A small point guard who looks to be 60 lbs when he's wet and wearing boots, a guy who shoots in the 30% range from the field and relies on making it to the foul line, a guy who underperformed statistically against LeBron in almost every measurable category, a guy who was shut down and eliminated from the playoffs by the Heat in spite of having homecourt advantage....deserved to win the MVP in the 10-11 season.  Cough cough.

Not slamming you....it is just statistics can be used to prove anything to support the point you are trying to make. It's not directed at you in anyway. It's the nature of statistics.


Four out of five dentists recommend.......

Bowling and golf are not team sports.


Wrong! I have competed in Ryder cup format competition and it most certainly is a team sport. Within a Ryder cup format is individual play, but the team play is amazing. My best Ryder cup was at a top 10 course called Crystal Downs on the Western Shore of lake Michigan in upper Michigan. There are incredible strategies of placing your team matches with different skill set partners. A great deal of fun and certainly more fun than a routine individual golf round. One of my fondest memories was this Scottish castle like clubhouse over looking this amazing course while having our Ryder dinner where team captains disclose their lineups and set the team.......every element of team play and excitement.

Who has the most rings is never the whole argument, but who was the best player during their era does have a great deal of weight.......I love James play, but during his era clearly Kobe and Tim Duncan will be seen as better player on the front end, and on the back end there are so many that James will be fortunate to be in the top five let alone the top. As I argued last year, Miami winning the championship would begin to give James more historic significance, but right now he is not even close to Jordan, and it really silly to talk of comparisons until he at least gets to Kobe or Tim's rings......which will never happen.

It all boils down to the fact that there is only one player that I have ever known of that, just by having that player and no matter who the supporting cast is, makes any team a championship threat.  

Can you honestly tell me that Jordan was that good?  Can you show me any time in Jordan's career where he did something impressive with a team of scrubs?  Because I can show you that with LeBron. 

Take away the supporting cast and Jordan is basically Carmello Anthony if Anthony played defense.  He'll bring you to the playoffs and you will quickly exit in the first round.  That's Jordan's resume.  "But Jordan never lost in the finals!!!" Yes. That's because he couldn't make it that far until the HOF supporting cast.

LeBron could take you, me, and Joani deep into the playoffs.

It all boils down to the fact that there is only one player that I have ever known of that, just by having that player and no matter who the supporting cast is, makes any team a championship threat.

This is your biggest fallacy. Ask the original players in Cleveland how hard it was to play with James, ask Bosh, ask Love......his career has been a train wreck of NEVER achieving success at the level others have been able to achieve CONSISTENTLY. Forget the comparison to anyone and focus on the reality, the very strengths you focus on have been his downfall. Dr. J was amazing.....but his value to the team and his ability to WIN could not be achieved. I am sorry that James has not achieved the wins because he can have the best or a rag tag collection, and he will ALWAYS be the also ran. I am amazed that he got two championships......but he showed resolve which was almost Jordan like, but then last year and probably this year he will do what he has done his WHOLE career.....fold when the pressure is on.........I will start comparing him to other people when he can simply win two or three more times in the next seven years.....but he simply is incapable of the same.......my arguments last year were dead cinch correct, and they remain correct.

2seaoat wrote:It all boils down to the fact that there is only one player that I have ever known of that, just by having that player and no matter who the supporting cast is, makes any team a championship threat.  

This is your biggest fallacy.   Ask the original players in Cleveland how hard it was to play with James, ask Bosh, ask Love......his career has been a train wreck of NEVER achieving success at the level others have been able to achieve CONSISTENTLY.   Forget the comparison to anyone and focus on the reality, the very strengths you focus on have been his downfall.  Dr. J was amazing.....but his value to the team and his ability to WIN could not be achieved.  I am sorry that James has not achieved the wins because he can have the best or a rag tag collection, and he will ALWAYS be the also ran.  I am amazed that he got two championships......but he showed resolve which was almost Jordan like, but then last year and probably this year he will do what he has done his WHOLE career.....fold when the pressure is on.........I will start comparing him to other people when he can simply win two or three more times in the next seven years.....but he simply is incapable of the same.......my arguments last year were dead cinch correct, and they remain correct.

How on earth can you say that a guy who has appeared in the last four NBA finals is inconsistent?  

Regarding your theory that LeBron is hard to play with....you're simply factually incorrect.  You are objectively wrong on that.  The exact opposite is the case.  Players want to play with LeBron.  Players love to play with LeBron.  Bosh could have made much more money in Houston and would very likely be at the top of the West today, but he isn't.  Why?  He left money on the table merely for the chance to play with LeBron for another season.  Wade left money on the table for a chance to play with LeBron for another season.  Kevin Love moved to Cleveland to play with LeBron.  Cleveland.

You are so incredibly wrong on this one that it's hilarious.  LeBron is effectively the best GM in the NBA today because everyone in the league wants to play with him.  Coaches want to coach him.

LeBron gets his teammates involved and wants everyone to enjoy in the success, whether they be scrubs or Chris Bosh.  Jordan on the hand, while surrounded by HOFers, is "me me me me me me me.  Look at me!  Look at me!"

How on earth can you say that a guy who has appeared in the last four NBA finals is inconsistent?


Jim Kelly........and you still do not get it.

Snap out of it......

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/kevin-love-and-lebron-its-chris-bosh-all-over-again/ar-AAa2E6u

“It’s extremely difficult and extremely frustrating.”

2seaoat wrote:How on earth can you say that a guy who has appeared in the last four NBA finals is inconsistent?  


Jim Kelly........and you still do not get it.

Back to the rings argument again. This is a circular argument. You bring up rings. I point out the fallacy in bringing up rings. You agree and say that the real issue is inconsistency. I point out that LeBron has made it to the last four NBA finals. You bring up rings.

Cleveland could not even win the East. I mean really. Three all stars and they just could not win this year to take the weakest division almost in NBA history. All the talk about division realignment from those West teams because of the lack of talent in the East, and James cannot even win the division.......I do not even have to talk about rings.....they could not even win their division.....snap out of it. You are always rational, but on this subject you are five years premature to even begin the discussion, and the sad reality is that Cleveland will not play in the finals......but you sure will have fun if they win.......I will have to eat some crow.......but I figure you ate it well last year, and I kinda think it is on your menu again this year......in the end....I figure you just like crow.

Cleveland will win the east. I doubt they will be able to win a title this year but I'm fairly confident they'll get it next year.

Cleveland will win the east. I doubt they will be able to win a title this year but I'm fairly confident they'll get it next year.


I say their series with Miami will go seven games, and that they will not win the east........this should be fun, and I have become an NBA fan again after 10 years of disinterest. The NBA is the best sports product on TV.

I think the NFL has peaked and over the next 10 years the NBA will catch up. The sport is already popular around the world and is getting wildly popular in China.