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The Economic Argument is Over - Paul Krugman Has Won

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Hospital Bob
Sal
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Sal

Sal

From the commies at Business Insider ...

The Economic Argument is Over - Paul Krugman Has Won Krug

For the past five years, a fierce war of words and policies has been fought in America and other economically challenged countries around the world.

On one side were economists and politicians who wanted to increase government spending to offset weakness in the private sector. This "stimulus" spending, economists like Paul Krugman argued, would help reduce unemployment and prop up economic growth until the private sector healed itself and began to spend again.

On the other side were economists and politicians who wanted to cut spending to reduce deficits and "restore confidence." Government stimulus, these folks argued, would only increase debt loads, which were already alarmingly high. If governments did not cut spending, countries would soon cross a deadly debt-to-GDP threshold, after which economic growth would be permanently impaired. The countries would also be beset by hyper-inflation, as bond investors suddenly freaked out and demanded higher interest rates. Once government spending was cut, this theory went, deficits would shrink and "confidence" would return.

This debate has not just been academic. It has affected the global economy, and, with it, the jobs and livelihoods of hundreds of millions of people.

Those in favor of economic stimulus won a brief victory in the depths of the financial crisis, with countries like the U.S. implementing stimulus packages. But the so-called "Austerians" fought back. And in the past several years, government policies in Europe and the U.S. have been shaped by the belief that governments had to cut spending or risk collapsing under the weight of staggering debts.

Over the course of this debate, evidence has gradually piled up that, however well-intentioned they might be, the "Austerians" were wrong. Japan, for example, has continued to increase its debt-to-GDP ratio well beyond the supposed collapse threshold, and its interest rates have remained stubbornly low. More notably, in Europe, countries that embraced (or were forced to adopt) austerity, like the U.K. and Greece, have endured multiple recessions (and, in the case of Greece, a depression). Moreover, because smaller economies produced less tax revenue, the countries' deficits also remained strikingly high.

So the empirical evidence increasingly favored the Nobel-prize winning Paul Krugman and the other economists and politicians arguing that governments could continue to spend aggressively until economic health was restored.

And then, last week, a startling discovery obliterated one of the key premises upon which the whole austerity movement was based.

An academic paper that found that a ratio of 90%-debt-to-GDP was a threshold above which countries experienced slow or no economic growth was found to contain an arithmetic calculation error.

Once the error was corrected, the "90% debt-to-GDP threshold" instantly disappeared. Higher government debt levels still correlated with slower economic growth, but the relationship was not nearly as pronounced. And there was no dangerous point-of-no-return that countries had to avoid exceeding at all costs.


The discovery of this simple math error eliminated one of the key "facts" upon which the austerity movement was based.

It also, in my opinion, settled the "stimulus vs. austerity" argument once and for all.

The argument is over. Paul Krugman has won. The only question now is whether the folks who have been arguing that we have no choice but to cut government spending while the economy is still weak will be big enough to admit that.

The discovery of the calculation error, after all, came only a few months after the United States voluntarily cut spending through a government "sequester." This sequester is hurting the U.S. economy, and it is also depriving American citizens of some basic services — like a fully staffed air-traffic control system — that most first-world countries regard as a given. And with America's government deficit already shrinking (thanks to the rollback of some tax cuts and a modest increase in taxes), it is now even clearer that the sequester did not have to be adopted.

Yes, at some point, the American government needs to come together and figure out a smart long-term plan for containing health care and military costs, which are the real budget-busters. We are not facing an immediate crisis, however, and this long-term plan does not need to be adopted tomorrow.

And in the meantime, for the sake of the country, it would be nice if our government came together and agreed to restore full funding for basic services.

Because the current state of government dysfunction in the United States is not just economically harmful. It is also embarrassing, depressing, and based on a premise that is now demonstrably false.

http://www.businessinsider.com/paul-krugman-is-right-2013-4#ixzz2RUYoOcjE

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

I concede the debate. A society living beyond it's means and spending money it doesn't have is the best economic model going. And Krugman will definitely go down in history alongside the other great minds for this discovery.

Guest


Guest

Idiocy... with a touch of delusion... sprinkled with bad ideologic intent. Other than that he's brilliant.

Sal

Sal

Bob wrote:I concede the debate. A society living beyond it's means and spending money it doesn't have is the best economic model going. And Krugman will definitely go down in history alongside the other great minds for this discovery.

I know, I know ...

... because household budgets and credit cards and so forth.

I suppose we could just keep kicking the poorz because it intuitively seems like the right thing to do, ...

... but the fact remains that the very premise on which the rationale for doing so was built upon has been proven false.

Guest


Guest

Have you noticed things we all use costing more? Who do you think that hurts most?

Floridatexan

Floridatexan

Bob wrote:I concede the debate. A society living beyond it's means and spending money it doesn't have is the best economic model going. And Krugman will definitely go down in history alongside the other great minds for this discovery.

What part of the word "temporary" is hard to grasp, Bob? If the stimulus had gone to main street and been large enough to bridge the gap, we wouldn't even be having this discussion...even after the cost of the bank bailouts in the last gasp of Bush's tenure.

Austerity will ONLY hurt the economy, because every inconvenience stifles productivity. The foxes are wreaking havoc in the henhouse, and they're not giving up dinner without a fight...misinformation, disinformation, LYING.

Sal

Sal

PkrBum wrote:Have you noticed things we all use costing more? Who do you think that hurts most?

The inflation dog is not barking.

ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

PkrBum wrote:Have you noticed things we all use costing more? Who do you think that hurts most?

I like to use this inflation calculator, which you can use to see the real value of money, in current terms, for any given year since 1914 (about when the FED was incorporated):

http://money.cnn.com/2005/06/24/markets/gold_inflation/index.htm?cnn=yes

Using that calculator, you can do some really astounding things. For instance, I got my first job in 1969, working the tomato fields outside Bakersfield, CA. I was paid $1.65 per hour (minimum wage). In 2013 dollars that wage equates to $10.00 per hour.

Someone earning a $20K annual salary in 1945 would be making what in 2013? Try $259,000.

In the early 60s, a wealthy aunt was gifting my father $3K every christmas. That was equivalent of about $24K in current dollars, back then.

On a personal note, I remember being shocked when the price of a 3 Musketeers bar doubled from $0.05 to $0.10 back around 1965 or so. I got a $0.75 per week allowance then, and I could eat candy for most of the week on it.

http://www.best-electric-barbecue-grills.com

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

We're already pissing away $220 billion a year to cover the interest payments on the federal debt and that figure is rising.
And that's with interest rates at rock bottom. You better pray those interest rates don't rise or the portion of our national revenue we'll be throwing down a rathole to service that debt will become staggering. And it won't come without a lot of suffering.
Paul Krugman won't be the one doing the suffering, he's a multimillionaire. It will be the poorest amongst us suffering the most.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

Sal wrote:

I know, I know ...

... because household budgets and credit cards and so forth.

No actually that's referred to as "personal" debt. As of right now in our country we've accumulated $16 trillion in personal debt. Which is $50,600 per person.

The federal debt we owe is additional to that. That figure is a little shy of $17 trillion and growing. Or more than $53,000 per person. Or $148,000 for every taxpayer.

But as you said, Paul Krugman is a genius and the argument is over. None of that is any problem. Because as floridatexan says, it's all just temporary.



Last edited by Bob on 4/25/2013, 2:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

Sal

Sal

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/425748/april-23-2013/austerity-s-spreadsheet-error?xrs=share_copy

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/425749/april-23-2013/austerity-s-spreadsheet-error---thomas-herndon

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

"Oh please, if ignoring Canada, Australia and New Zealand was a crime, everyone in America would be on death row" (followed by an arm and hand popping up from below the desk so Colbert can give it five).

The last time I laughed as hard as I did after seeing that, it was when Mike Judge was on Letterman telling us about the "deranged hillbilly" on his answering machine who gave him the voice of Boomauer.

That tv comic may have never learned fucking arithmetic in those hick schools he attended in South Carolina, but he sure does know how to make me laugh so hard I cry. lol

Keep em comin, Sal.


Sal

Sal

PkrBum wrote:Idiocy... with a touch of delusion... sprinkled with bad ideologic intent. Other than that he's brilliant.

I sometimes find Krugman to be politically naive, but economically he has been correct with every single assessment and prediction he has made since the very beginning of the crisis.

Meanwhile the studies the austerians relied upon for their positions have spontaneously combusted, the bond vigilantes are a no show, and inflation remains low.


Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob



Why Was Paul Krugman So Wrong?


http://www.thenation.com/article/173593/why-was-paul-krugman-so-wrong#

Sal

Sal

Sal wrote:
PkrBum wrote:Idiocy... with a touch of delusion... sprinkled with bad ideologic intent. Other than that he's brilliant.

I sometimes find Krugman to be politically naive, but economically he has been correct with every single assessment and prediction he has made since the very beginning of the crisis.

Meanwhile the studies the austerians relied upon for their positions have spontaneously combusted, the bond vigilantes are a no show, and inflation remains low.


Guest


Guest

Sal wrote:
PkrBum wrote:Idiocy... with a touch of delusion... sprinkled with bad ideologic intent. Other than that he's brilliant.

I sometimes find Krugman to be politically naive, but economically he has been correct with every single assessment and prediction he has made since the very beginning of the crisis.

Meanwhile the studies the austerians relied upon for their positions have spontaneously combusted, the bond vigilantes are a no show, and inflation remains low.



yes... BRILLIANT... he's predicted nine of the last two recessions. I bet he wet his pants w excitement in 2008.

VectorMan

VectorMan

Unraveled!

The Economic Argument is Over - Paul Krugman Has Won Pkunravel

LOL

This Bozo is about as sharp as a bowling ball.

Sal

Sal

That was smart.

Rolling Eyes

Guest


Guest

Bob wrote:I concede the debate. A society living beyond it's means and spending money it doesn't have is the best economic model going. And Krugman will definitely go down in history alongside the other great minds for this discovery.

you just got to laugh


lol! lol! lol!

Markle

Markle

Floridatexan wrote:
Bob wrote:I concede the debate. A society living beyond it's means and spending money it doesn't have is the best economic model going. And Krugman will definitely go down in history alongside the other great minds for this discovery.

What part of the word "temporary" is hard to grasp, Bob? If the stimulus had gone to main street and been large enough to bridge the gap, we wouldn't even be having this discussion...even after the cost of the bank bailouts in the last gasp of Bush's tenure.
Austerity will ONLY hurt the economy, because every inconvenience stifles productivity. The foxes are wreaking havoc in the henhouse, and they're not giving up dinner without a fight...misinformation, disinformation, LYING.

As you know, the banks have repaid their bailouts with interest. As you also know, General Motors has not nor will they every. Nor will the vast majority of "Green" companies President Barack Hussein Obama handed hundreds of millions knowing full well they were going belly up.

Then there is Chrysler...they paid us back but are no longer an American Auto Company.

Do you know the meaning of the word austerity? What happens in a few years when we do not have enough revenues to pay the interest on our outstanding loans?

Markle

Markle

Floridatexan wrote:
Bob wrote:I concede the debate. A society living beyond it's means and spending money it doesn't have is the best economic model going. And Krugman will definitely go down in history alongside the other great minds for this discovery.

What part of the word "temporary" is hard to grasp, Bob? If the stimulus had gone to main street and been large enough to bridge the gap, we wouldn't even be having this discussion...even after the cost of the bank bailouts in the last gasp of Bush's tenure.

Austerity will ONLY hurt the economy, because every inconvenience stifles productivity. The foxes are wreaking havoc in the henhouse, and they're not giving up dinner without a fight...misinformation, disinformation, LYING.

Please explain how austerity, which reduces spending and you say takes money out of the economy, is different from radically increasing taxes...which takes money out of the economy?

Keep in mind increasing taxes will reduce economic activity which will reduce the revenues.

The foxes wreaking havoc in the henhouse was having the architects of the housing/mortgage/financial meltdown, Barney Frank and Chris Dodd the "architect" of the supposed "fix".

Economists and historians in the future are going to shaking their head saying what in the heck were they thinking?

Guest


Guest

PkrBum wrote:
Sal wrote:
PkrBum wrote:Idiocy... with a touch of delusion... sprinkled with bad ideologic intent. Other than that he's brilliant.

I sometimes find Krugman to be politically naive, but economically he has been correct with every single assessment and prediction he has made since the very beginning of the crisis.

Meanwhile the studies the austerians relied upon for their positions have spontaneously combusted, the bond vigilantes are a no show, and inflation remains low.



yes... BRILLIANT... he's predicted nine of the last two recessions. I bet he wet his pants w excitement in 2008.

The Economic Argument is Over - Paul Krugman Has Won Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQd8qacQGt4X7zA2Mj3HJDaZcvADcqmQhNsZsj3ga_1t-uYSZvYOg

Yes... They are still calling it a recession instead of a depression aren't they.

*****SMILE*****

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eih67rlGNhU

Smile

Markle

Markle

Sal wrote:
PkrBum wrote:Have you noticed things we all use costing more? Who do you think that hurts most?

The inflation dog is not barking.


The printing presses are still running.

Here is that increase of case in circulation. Gee...I wonder how the stock market is doing so well considering there is no other place to invest money? They even had to increase the size of the chart recently.
The Economic Argument is Over - Paul Krugman Has Won MoneySupply382013

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?s[1][id]=AMBNS

President Barack Hussein Obama will just keep them running until he's out of office and then comes the catastrophe.

Markle

Markle

Sal wrote:That was smart.

Rolling Eyes

Aww come on. This is what the great Paul Krugman, adviser to Enron, had to say during the Bush administration about THOSE numbers, which were far superior to todays.

Here is your beloved Paul Krugman being interviewed by the "Liberal Oasis" about the 2003 economy.

On October 31, 2003 this is what your Paul Krugman said about the current 3.1% growth rate at the Liberal Oasis.



From the former adviser to ENRON and Socialist darling, of the far, far left, Paul Krugman. This from October 31, 2003. Wow…talk about a different tune today. For reference, the GDP for 2011 was 1.7%. The GDP for the third quarter of 2012 was 3.1%, the forth quarter for 2012 was plus 0.1% that is A SHRINKING ECONOMY.


Progressives and Democrats may want to revisit the LiberalOasis interview with Paul Krugman from August 2003, after the last GDP number was released:


LiberalOasis: Second quarter GDP was just revised to 3.1% annual rate of growth. That’s near the point where many economists say job creation will kick in. Does that mean the economy is turning around, and Bush can credit the tax cuts for doing it?


Paul Krugman: Well, it’s quite possible that we will see some positive job growth.


But, I still don’t see anything in there that says we’re going to have jobs growing fast enough to keep up with the growth in the population, let alone make up all the ground that’s been lost.


And the main thing to say is: gosh, if you let me run a 500 billion dollar deficit, [President Barack Hussein Obama’s has been over $1.2 TRILLION EACH YEAR FOR FOUR YEARS] I could create a whole lot of jobs. That's roughly [$500 BILLION DEFICIT] equal to the wages of 10 million average workers.


So the fact that we've managed to go from a 200 billion surplus to a 500 billion deficit, while losing three million jobs, is actually a pretty poor verdict on the policy.
http://www.liberaloasis.com/krugman.htm

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