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Pensacola Discussion Forum » Politics » Democrats Debate lineup

Democrats Debate lineup

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bigdog
Sal
RealLindaL
zsomething
othershoe1030
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326Democrats Debate lineup - Page 14 Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup 7/20/2019, 1:24 pm

bigdog



Oh, and FT, my degree in Social Work taught me very little about politics.
I'll bet your marketing degree taught you just about the same 

So, "patronizing" is kind of the right word there.
I mean the post you made to Linda.


I admitted I didn't have a clue what a private equity fund was. It's okay to not know some things and not so get angry about it that you need to put someone else down.



LOL, And don't deny I'm right because, after all, I have that oh so important degree thingy. I took a psychology course almost 50 years ago.

For Pete's sake. Very Happy



Last edited by bigdog on 7/21/2019, 1:00 pm; edited 2 times in total

327Democrats Debate lineup - Page 14 Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup 7/20/2019, 5:11 pm

Joanimaroni

Joanimaroni

PkrBum wrote:Lol... who actually commissioned Russian counterintelligence?

Who had debate questions ahead of time?

Who cheated Bernie?

Who had 90% of the MSM in their pocket?

Slimy fascist toolbox indeed.


Unbelievable! 😂😂😂

328Democrats Debate lineup - Page 14 Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup 7/20/2019, 8:56 pm

bigdog



You're right about one thing FT, I do think Hillary is a Corporate Dem, and I don't think that's an oxymoron.
There are only two viable political parties in this country. If you're a Republican, you have to be a corporatist, you have to be anti-abortion, you have to claim you are for small government, you simply have to sign on to the platform or you'll be run out of the party.

One of the main reasons I am a Democrat is that we don't let other members of our party tell us what we absolutely have to believe in order to be Democrats. I could not be a Democrat for years before Bill Clinton, because Dems insisted nominating all the same kind of candidates. Apart from Jimmy Carter, I couldn't vote for any of them. 
Then Clinton came along, riding right down the middle of the road, and I was able to change parties and have been very happy as a Dem ever since. I could never go back to the Republicans anymore, because they abandoned any pretense of having a centrist wing a long time ago.

You can't "purify" the Democratic party by tossing out all the capitalists, or by tossing out anyone who receives corporate donations. 
It's open to anybody that signs a voter card and says he's a Democrat.

Like it or not, that's how it works. Nobody gets to say who is a "real" Democrat or who is not.

329Democrats Debate lineup - Page 14 Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup 7/21/2019, 7:27 am

Guest


Guest

The dem party is morphing as we speak. Just look back a few years at a position like this:

"We are a nation of laws. Undocumented workers broke our immigration laws, and I believe that they must be held accountable, especially those who may be dangerous. That’s why over the past six years deportations of criminals are up 80 percent, and that’s why we’re going to keep focusing on threats to our security."

330Democrats Debate lineup - Page 14 Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup 7/21/2019, 12:29 pm

bigdog



It is morphing again, though not to the degree some people think it is. It probably wouldn't have gone as far to the left as it has if Donald Trump hadn't come into office with such a Fascist, racist  agenda. He angered everyone so much that they thought running as fast and as far as they could in the opposite direction was the only answer.
All we need is to get rid of him and his  people and come back to sanity. You can't sit around and talk about high ideals when there are rats and roaches crawling all over the floor. There will be plenty of time for that after Trump is gone, but he's got to be beaten first. When he is, a lot of the open haters of the right will crawl back under their rocks.  And regaining the Senate would totally wipe that party out, I think for years to come.

331Democrats Debate lineup - Page 14 Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup 7/21/2019, 2:06 pm

RealLindaL



I agree 110% with every word of b.d.'s immediate prior post here, with the possible exception of the last line, about which I'm not so sure.  

But the rest of it - yes, absolutely.   And those who fail to recognize that attracting the widest possible electorate in order to accomplish the very necessary and CRITICAL JOB ONE - defeating Trump -- do so at their own great risk and peril.

Idealism and ideology can follow later. Right now we simply MUST defeat Trump -- and the leftist element is only going to scare away more voters, not attract them. It's just plain common sense, people.

332Democrats Debate lineup - Page 14 Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup 7/21/2019, 8:33 pm

Guest


Guest

C'mon... McCain was being called a racist running against Obama. Then considered a political saint.

There was and never will be again a Republican that isn't a racist, misogynist, homophobic, xenophobic, whateverist.

It's hard to take y'all seriously anymore.

333Democrats Debate lineup - Page 14 Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup 7/21/2019, 9:27 pm

Floridatexan

Floridatexan

PkrBum wrote:C'mon... McCain was being called a racist running against Obama. Then considered a political saint.

There was and never will be again a Republican that isn't a racist, misogynist, homophobic,  xenophobic, whateverist.

It's hard to take y'all seriously anymore.

Democrats Debate lineup - Page 14 Ov4dsMP

334Democrats Debate lineup - Page 14 Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup 7/21/2019, 11:38 pm

bigdog



PkrBum wrote:C'mon... McCain was being called a racist running against Obama. Then considered a political saint.

There was and never will be again a Republican that isn't a racist, misogynist, homophobic,  xenophobic, whateverist.

It's hard to take y'all seriously anymore.
I do not remember John McCain being called a racist. He did choose a Running mate who was way too far to the right to take his candidacy seriously though.John McCain had African American children, if I remember correctly. 

I certainly never called McCain a racist back then, I'm positive of that. He also knew how to disagree with a racist crowd member when she claimed Obama was a Muslim. McCain kept his dignity during his whole career, though he did veer too far to the right in his later years. That does not mean he was a racist And whatever disagreements he had with the Democrats were healed completely by his vote to keep Obamacare in force. He got back his Maverick label at that moment in time. He was a great American, a great man. And yes, he was a Republican.

Now I see the next post coming. It's from FT.  "No real Democrat would praise a Republican like that."
Since she believes she is the "decider" of who real Dems are now.

335Democrats Debate lineup - Page 14 Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup 7/22/2019, 7:51 am

Guest


Guest

bigdog wrote:
PkrBum wrote:C'mon... McCain was being called a racist running against Obama. Then considered a political saint.

There was and never will be again a Republican that isn't a racist, misogynist, homophobic,  xenophobic, whateverist.

It's hard to take y'all seriously anymore.
I do not remember John McCain being called a racist. He did choose a Running mate who was way too far to the right to take his candidacy seriously though.John McCain had African American children, if I remember correctly. 

I certainly never called McCain a racist back then, I'm positive of that. He also knew how to disagree with a racist crowd member when she claimed Obama was a Muslim. McCain kept his dignity during his whole career, though he did veer too far to the right in his later years. That does not mean he was a racist And whatever disagreements he had with the Democrats were healed completely by his vote to keep Obamacare in force. He got back his Maverick label at that moment in time. He was a great American, a great man. And yes, he was a Republican.

Now I see the next post coming. It's from FT.  "No real Democrat would praise a Republican like that."
Since she believes she is the "decider" of who real Dems are now.

No... i haven't seen you carelessly throw around epithets. But it's certainly a common tactic today. In truth it does harm to what should be a serious issue. Most of the left here openly called "racist" to any and all criticism of Obama.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/opinion/campaign/404543-medias-praise-for-mccain-is-warranted-but-where-was-it-in-08%3famp

Sen. John McCain's passing last weekend has dominated the news, particularly cable news, over the past week. The life of the former prisoner of war and 2008 presidential candidate is certainly worthy of attention.

But the respect and honesty we're seeing from the 2018 media is a far cry from the Arizona Republican's treatment in 2008. McCain was labeled as a racist, a get-off-my-lawn grouch with a divisive temper, someone whose health should be scrutinized because of his age.

Here's a flashback, courtesy of Pew Research, from the final weeks of the 2008 campaign in terms of the kind of media coverage the Republican presidential nominee received in his race against then-Sen. Barack Obama. Just 14 percent of coverage of McCain was positive from the Republican National Convention that ended on Sept. 4 through the final presidential debate on Oct. 15; 57 percent was negative. Translation: McCain's coverage was negative over positive by a 4-to-1 ratio.

Compare that to coverage of Obama, who received 36 percent of coverage that was positive, and 35 percent that was neutral or mixed, according to the study. Just 29 percent of coverage was negative - about half that of McCain's.


Politico, which was part of the Pew study, did an analysis of its own coverage for one week, Oct. 21 to 28: "Why McCain is getting hosed in the press." The result: "110 stories advanced a narrative that was more favorable to Obama than McCain. Sixty-nine did the opposite."

When unpacking those numbers, remember this: McCain was a media darling for most of his career leading up to 2008. That isn't meant in a derogatory way. He was more accessible than most politicians of his experience and stature. He provided good soundbites, spoke with candor, wasn't afraid to go against the grain - hence his nickname, "Maverick."

In fact, McCain holds the record - and it's of Cal Ripken proportions - of having the most appearances on the CBS Sunday morning affairs program, "Face the Nation," with 112 appearances. He appeared 73 times on "Meet the Press," also a record.


"You could always find him," Bob Schieffer, the veteran CBS reporter, anchor and former host of "Face the Nation," told the Washington Post this week. "Most politicians, when the news is good, you have no trouble finding them. When it's bad, you can't find them with a bloodhound. McCain was always around and always willing to come on and talk. And he always had something to say."

McCain, of course, knew this. He didn't resort to the kind of rhetoric the current president uses with the media on a daily basis, opting instead for a different approach.

"My old friend and green room pal, Chris Matthews, used to like me but he found somebody new," McCain said of the MSNBC host in October 2008 at the Al Smith Dinner in New York. "Somebody who opened his eyes, somebody who gave him a thrill up his leg. And we've talked about it. I told him, 'Maverick I can do, but Messiah is above my pay grade.' "


"You know, I have fun with the media. We all know the press is really an independent, civic-minded, and nonpartisan group," he also said to applause.

But there had to be times when McCain rightly seethed at the kind of treatment he receives in the press.

In August 2008, the New York Times editorial page described an official McCain ad as "racially tinged" because it included a photo of Obama juxtaposed with Paris Hilton and Britney Spears.


The message the campaign was sending: Obama, with little experience and media adulation, was much more sizzle than steak, a paparazzi-obsessed celebrity.

No matter: Ezra Klein said the McCain campaign was "running crypto-racist ads." Bill Press called it "deliberately and deceptively racist." John Marshall argued that "the McCain campaign is now pushing the caricature of Obama as a uppity young black man whose presumptuousness is displayed not only in taking on airs above his station but also in a taste for young white women." Don Lemon accused the campaign of "creating a political environment that is inciting hate and hate speech."


Fast forward to this week, and it's impossible to separate President Trump from the McCain conversation in terms of coverage.

McCain deserves the praise. He deserves a big sendoff. But it's difficult not to ask this question: If the senator had gotten along with Trump, perhaps voted for the "skinny repeal" of ObamaCare that he so famously shot down with one vote change at the 11th hour, hadn't publicly called Trump "disgraceful," would we see this level of reverence we've witnessed and will continue to witness this weekend?

John McCain is a true American hero. A politician representing a time before compromise and civility was considered by some as weakness in the swamps of D.C.

For many in the media, if the numbers above are any indication, McCain became the villain the moment he clinched the 2008 Republican nomination not because of who he was but because his opponent was the overwhelming favorite of the press.

336Democrats Debate lineup - Page 14 Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup 7/22/2019, 8:55 am

Telstar

Telstar

Floridatexan wrote:
PkrBum wrote:C'mon... McCain was being called a racist running against Obama. Then considered a political saint.

There was and never will be again a Republican that isn't a racist, misogynist, homophobic,  xenophobic, whateverist.

It's hard to take y'all seriously anymore.

Democrats Debate lineup - Page 14 Ov4dsMP




You Win! The John Cleese Card beats everything! lol!

337Democrats Debate lineup - Page 14 Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup 7/22/2019, 11:22 am

Sal

Sal

RealLindaL wrote:
Idealism and ideology can follow later.  Right now we simply MUST defeat Trump -- and the leftist element is only going to scare away more voters, not attract them.

You just contradicted yourself.

We are not in conventional times.

Whether policy is "leftist" or "centrist" does not matter when facing fascists.

Anyone who still supports Trump at this point is a dead-ender, and the Dems have no shot at flipping them. None.

This is about decent Americans making a stand against evil.

Pick a side.

Trump-humpers already have, and there ain't no going back.

338Democrats Debate lineup - Page 14 Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup 7/22/2019, 11:53 am

RealLindaL



Sal wrote:Pick a side.

In case you hadn't noticed, I've already picked a side, and anyone with half a brain knows the Trump base is incorrigibly locked in.   It's the countless number of UNDECIDEDS and/or MIDDLE-OF-THE-ROADERS who exist, whether or not you choose to recognize them, that I'm concerned about.  Ignore them at your own risk.  Far left policies are NOT the way to entice them!  I can hardly believe you can't see this.  It's as obvious as the nose on your face.

Contradicted myself?  Not in the least.



Last edited by RealLindaL on 7/22/2019, 12:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

339Democrats Debate lineup - Page 14 Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup 7/22/2019, 12:01 pm

bigdog



Sal wrote:
RealLindaL wrote:
Idealism and ideology can follow later.  Right now we simply MUST defeat Trump -- and the leftist element is only going to scare away more voters, not attract them.

You just contradicted yourself.

We are not in conventional times.

Whether policy is "leftist" or "centrist" does not matter when facing fascists.

Anyone who still supports Trump at this point is a dead-ender, and the Dems have no shot at flipping them.  None.

This is about decent Americans making a stand against evil.

Pick a side.

Trump-humpers already have, and there ain't no going back.
You just contradicted yourself.

You said whether policy is "leftist" or "centrist" does not matter when facing fascists.


Then, a couple of paragraphs down, you order a Centrist to "pick a side." I believe the Centrists on this forum have already picked a side. We've said we will not vote for Donald Trump, no matter what. 
What you want is for us to change our thinking to the left where you are, and you spend your time claiming that if we don't, we're not "real Democrats."

I'll support the Democratic party my way, my good old centrist way, thanks very much. I already sent money through Act Blue to the candidate of my choice, Joe Biden. I didn't send much, but I'll be contributing and doing what I can all along. 
I don't have to wait until after the first primary, or the debates to know who I want to be POTUS. 
I've CHOSEN MY SIDE a long time ago. It just happens to not be yours.
The so called progressives on this forum are becoming exactly what the public thinks a lot of them are,  self-righteous, condescending, elitist people that do nothing but make judgements from the left.
That's what folks on the right do too.

Remember "America, love it or leave it."
You want centrists to "purify" or get out of the Democratic party.

Sounds a lot alike to me.

340Democrats Debate lineup - Page 14 Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup 7/22/2019, 12:13 pm

Telstar

Telstar

bigdog wrote:
Sal wrote:
RealLindaL wrote:
Idealism and ideology can follow later.  Right now we simply MUST defeat Trump -- and the leftist element is only going to scare away more voters, not attract them.

You just contradicted yourself.

We are not in conventional times.

Whether policy is "leftist" or "centrist" does not matter when facing fascists.

Anyone who still supports Trump at this point is a dead-ender, and the Dems have no shot at flipping them.  None.

This is about decent Americans making a stand against evil.

Pick a side.

Trump-humpers already have, and there ain't no going back.
You just contradicted yourself.

You said whether policy is "leftist" or "centrist" does not matter when facing fascists.


Then, a couple of paragraphs down, you order a Centrist to "pick a side." I believe the Centrists on this forum have already picked a side. We've said we will not vote for Donald Trump, no matter what. 
What you want is for us to change our thinking to the left where you are, and you spend your time claiming that if we don't, we're not "real Democrats."

I'll support the Democratic party my way, my good old centrist way, thanks very much. I already sent money through Act Blue to the candidate of my choice, Joe Biden. I didn't send much, but I'll be contributing and doing what I can all along. 
I don't have to wait until after the first primary, or the debates to know who I want to be POTUS. 
I've CHOSEN MY SIDE a long time ago. It just happens to not be yours.
The so called progressives on this forum are becoming exactly what the public thinks a lot of them are,  self-righteous, condescending, elitist people that do nothing but make judgements from the left.
That's what folks on the right do too.

Remember "America, love it or leave it."
You want centrists to "purify" or get out of the Democratic party.

Sounds a lot alike to me.




I'm okay with Biden, if he wins the nomination. Not on the top of my list but I'll support him if he wins. I'll support anyone who wins the Democratic nomination, even Bernie. Twisted Evil

341Democrats Debate lineup - Page 14 Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup 7/22/2019, 12:37 pm

Sal

Sal

bigdog wrote:
You just contradicted yourself.

You said whether policy is "leftist" or "centrist" does not matter when facing fascists.


No, dummy ...

... the choice is not leftist or centrist ...

... it's Trump or NOT Trump.

I'll vote for the Bernie-Marianne Moonbeam ticket, if it comes to that.

342Democrats Debate lineup - Page 14 Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup 7/22/2019, 1:15 pm

Guest


Guest

343Democrats Debate lineup - Page 14 Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup 7/22/2019, 2:04 pm

Telstar

Telstar

344Democrats Debate lineup - Page 14 Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup 7/22/2019, 3:19 pm

othershoe1030

othershoe1030

I think this guy is right on. I've often thought that the Dems need a candidate who can appeal to the emotional side of voters. We need someone who can light a fire under voters, register new voters and get people to the polls! This election has to be a landslide (like no body has ever seen, to coin a phrase). There can be zero doubt about the outcome.

This addresses the need to speak directly to voters about the racist policies coming out of this WH.

This is (obviously I guess?) from a Twitter thread by Tim Wise posted by Jill Wine-Banks


More
1/ If the Dems blow this election it will not be because they were "too far left on policy" or because they "weren't left enough." It will have little to do with policy at all. They are making a mistake caused by traditional consultant theory that does not apply here...
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2/ And by listening to influential pundits in liberal media who also don't get the unique nature of Trumpism, relative to normal political movements & campaigns...this election is NOT going to be won by talking about all your "great plans" for health care, jobs, education, etc..
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3/ And the reasons are several...Let me begin by saying that I have experience confronting the kind of phenomenon we see in Trumpism, and far more than most. Any of us who were involved in the fight against David Duke in LA in 90/91 know what this is and how it must be fought...
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4/ So before explaining what the Dems are doing wrong right now, a little history...In 1990, white supremacist David Duke ran for U.S. Senate in LA, and in 1991 for Governor. He lost both times but both times he won the majority of the white vote (60 and 55% respectively)...
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5/ I was one of the staffers of the main anti-Duke PAC at the time & ultimately became Assistant Director. In 90, even though our Director Lance Hill, myself & a few of our founders wanted to focus on Duke's bigotry, ties to extremists and appeals to white racial resentment...
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6/ ...after all, that WAS the issue--it was a moral struggle against racism--we had mainstream Democratic consultants who warned us against focusing too much on it. They said that "played into Duke's hands" and allowed him to set the agenda....
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7/ So sure, we could discuss his ties to Nazis & such, but we shouldn't make a big deal out of his contemporary racist appeals, per se, bc "lots of voters agree" with those appeals...they even encouraged us to talk about utterly superfluous shit like Duke paying his taxes late..
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8/ Or Duke avoiding service in Vietnam, or Duke writing a sex manual under a female pseudonym (yeah he did that)...although Lance held firm that we needed to talk mostly about racism, we did end up talking about some of that other stuff too, sadly...
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9/ I say "sadly" because doing that normalized Duke as a regular candidate. Attacking his generic character or bill paying habits (or even discussing his inadequate plans for job creation, etc) treated him like a normal candidate. But he was/is a NAZI...
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10/ And none of his voters were voting 4 him bc of jobs, or tax policy or support for term limits, etc. And none were going to turn on him over late tax payments, Vietnam, etc. Indeed throwing that stuff out there & downplaying the elephant in the room (racism) seemed desperate..
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11/ It allowed people to say "well if he's really this racist, white supremacist, why are they talking about all this other stuff?" It actually undermined our ability to paint him as the extremist he was/is. And as a result, the threat he posed was not clear enough to voters...
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12/ And this didn't just allow him to get votes he might not have gotten otherwise; it also depressed turnout among people who almost certainly disliked him but didn't think he could win or would be all that big a deal if he did. In fact I recall convos with "liberals"...
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13/ ...Who said they weren't going 2 vote bc after all Duke's Dem opponent was just a shill for the oil and gas industry, and that was just as bad, blah blah fucking blah...because some lefties can't tell the difference between corporatist assholes and actual literal Nazis...
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14/ But we bore some responsibility for that because we got suckered into playing this conventional game and "not playing into his narrative." Anyway, Duke gets 60% of the vote, black and white liberal turnout is lower than it should have been and Duke gets 44% of vote...
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15/ In the Governor's race we dispensed w/ all that bullshit. We talked about Duke's ongoing Nazism and the moral/practical evil of his racist appeals. We discussed how that moral evil would have real world consequences (driving tourists and business away, rightly so, from LA)..
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16/ Because it was wrong, and it was not who we wanted to be, and it was not who were were. We were better than that and needed to show the rest of the country that...
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17/ Now, did this flip any of Duke's 1990 voters? Nah, not really. Indeed he got 65k MORE votes in the Governor's race than the Senate race. But it was never about flipping them. We knew that would be almost impossible...
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18/ To flip Duke voters would require that they accept the fact that they had previously voted for a monster, and people are loath to do that. Our goal was not to flip them, but to DRIVE UP TURNOUT among the good folks, many of whom stayed home in 90...
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19/ And that is what happened. The concerted effort of  the anti-Duke forces (not just us), challenging Duke's "politics of prejudice," and making the election about what kind of state we wanted to be, drove turnout through the roof...
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20/ 28,000+ registered on one day alone, between the initial election and runoff (which Duke made bc of the state's open primary system), with tens of thousands more overall: most of them, anti-Duke folks...
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21/ When it was over, Duke had gotten 65k more votes than in 90, but his white share went to 55 (from 60) and overall to 39 (from 44) because the anti-Duke turnout swamped him...So what does this have to do with 2020 and Trump? Do I really need to explain it?...
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22/ First, trying to flip Trump voters is a waste of time. Any of them who regret their vote don't need to be pandered to. They'll do the right thing. Don't focus on them. That said, very few will regret their vote. They cannot accept they voted for a monster or got suckered...
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23/ Duke retained 94% of the folks he got the first time out (and got new people too), as Trump likely will. So forget these people--or at least don't wast time tailoring messages to them. And policy plans for affordable college don't mean shit to them, nor health care...
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24/ Their support for Trump was never about policy. It was about the bigotry, the fact that he hates who they hate...Second, as for the "undecideds." ...Not many of these but seriously? If you're still undecided at this point about this guy...
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25/ Then there is almost no way to know what would get you to make up your mind...I doubt it's a plan to deal with Wall Street though, or infrastructure, or tax policy...
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26/ If anything, I would say crafting an argument that this is an existential crisis for the nation--and making it about Trump's bigotry and who we want to be as a country, would be far more effective in inspiring them to make up their minds...
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27/ And what I know for a FACT is that this message--that Trumpism is a threat to everything we care about and love about this country--is what will inspire the Dem base to vote...and THAT is what this election is about...
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28/ I'm not saying the Dems don't need policy ideas, but focusing on wonky, look-how-much-I've-thought about-this stuff is not going to move the needle in 2020...
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29/ What the left never understands is: we need to stop approaching elections like the goddamned debate team, and start approaching it like the right does, like the cheerleading squad...
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30/ The right knows psychology and we know public policy and sociology...great. The latter does not win elections...
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31/ People who say the Dems should ignore Trump's race baiting because its some genius political strategy calculated to distract us, are idiots. He is no genius. And if you downplay it you NORMALIZE him. If you make this about policy, you NORMALIZE him. He is a racist...
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32/ He is a white nationalist. He is an authoritarian. He and his cult are a threat to the future of the nation and world because of their hatreds. His movement betrays the country's promise. THAT is the message that will drive turnout. Not debates over marginal tax rates...
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33/ Or how we are going to fund schools...And anyone who says we should ignore the race baiting to talk more about Mueller and Russia is an even bigger fool...that's like talking about Duke and late tax payments or other corruptions...it might all be true but is not the point...
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34/ Not to say the House shouldn't impeach over that stuff. They should. But the 2020 candidates must craft a message that is not about that. Trumpism is the threat to America, more than Putin. And Putin didn't birth Trumpism. Conservative White America did...
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345Democrats Debate lineup - Page 14 Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup 7/22/2019, 3:44 pm

Sal

Sal

othershoe1030 wrote:
First, trying to flip Trump voters is a waste of time. Any of them who regret their vote don't need to be pandered to. They'll do the right thing. Don't focus on them. That said, very few will regret their vote. They cannot accept they voted for a monster or got suckered...

So forget these people--or at least don't wast time tailoring messages to them. And policy plans for affordable college don't mean shit to them, nor health care...

Their support for Trump was never about policy. It was about the bigotry, the fact that he hates who they hate...

Second, as for the "undecideds." ...Not many of these but seriously? If you're still undecided at this point about this guy...
Then there is almost no way to know what would get you to make up your mind...I doubt it's a plan to deal with Wall Street though, or infrastructure, or tax policy...
If anything, I would say crafting an argument that this is an existential crisis for the nation--and making it about Trump's bigotry and who we want to be as a country, would be far more effective in inspiring them to make up their minds...

Precisely.

346Democrats Debate lineup - Page 14 Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup 7/22/2019, 3:47 pm

Telstar

Telstar

othershoe1030 wrote:I think this guy is right on. I've often thought that the Dems need a candidate who can appeal to the emotional side of voters. We need someone who can light a fire under voters, register new voters and get people to the polls! This election has to be a landslide (like no body has ever seen, to coin a phrase). There can be zero doubt about the outcome.

This addresses the need to speak directly to voters about the racist policies coming out of this WH.

This is (obviously I guess?) from a Twitter thread by Tim Wise posted by Jill Wine-Banks


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1/ If the Dems blow this election it will not be because they were "too far left on policy" or because they "weren't left enough." It will have little to do with policy at all. They are making a mistake caused by traditional consultant theory that does not apply here...
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2/ And by listening to influential pundits in liberal media who also don't get the unique nature of Trumpism, relative to normal political movements & campaigns...this election is NOT going to be won by talking about all your "great plans" for health care, jobs, education, etc..
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3/ And the reasons are several...Let me begin by saying that I have experience confronting the kind of phenomenon we see in Trumpism, and far more than most. Any of us who were involved in the fight against David Duke in LA in 90/91 know what this is and how it must be fought...
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4/ So before explaining what the Dems are doing wrong right now, a little history...In 1990, white supremacist David Duke ran for U.S. Senate in LA, and in 1991 for Governor. He lost both times but both times he won the majority of the white vote (60 and 55% respectively)...
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5/ I was one of the staffers of the main anti-Duke PAC at the time & ultimately became Assistant Director. In 90, even though our Director Lance Hill, myself & a few of our founders wanted to focus on Duke's bigotry, ties to extremists and appeals to white racial resentment...
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6/ ...after all, that WAS the issue--it was a moral struggle against racism--we had mainstream Democratic consultants who warned us against focusing too much on it. They said that "played into Duke's hands" and allowed him to set the agenda....
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7/ So sure, we could discuss his ties to Nazis & such, but we shouldn't make a big deal out of his contemporary racist appeals, per se, bc "lots of voters agree" with those appeals...they even encouraged us to talk about utterly superfluous shit like Duke paying his taxes late..
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8/ Or Duke avoiding service in Vietnam, or Duke writing a sex manual under a female pseudonym (yeah he did that)...although Lance held firm that we needed to talk mostly about racism, we did end up talking about some of that other stuff too, sadly...
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9/ I say "sadly" because doing that normalized Duke as a regular candidate. Attacking his generic character or bill paying habits (or even discussing his inadequate plans for job creation, etc) treated him like a normal candidate. But he was/is a NAZI...
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10/ And none of his voters were voting 4 him bc of jobs, or tax policy or support for term limits, etc. And none were going to turn on him over late tax payments, Vietnam, etc. Indeed throwing that stuff out there & downplaying the elephant in the room (racism) seemed desperate..
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11/ It allowed people to say "well if he's really this racist, white supremacist, why are they talking about all this other stuff?" It actually undermined our ability to paint him as the extremist he was/is. And as a result, the threat he posed was not clear enough to voters...
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12/ And this didn't just allow him to get votes he might not have gotten otherwise; it also depressed turnout among people who almost certainly disliked him but didn't think he could win or would be all that big a deal if he did. In fact I recall convos with "liberals"...
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13/ ...Who said they weren't going 2 vote bc after all Duke's Dem opponent was just a shill for the oil and gas industry, and that was just as bad, blah blah fucking blah...because some lefties can't tell the difference between corporatist assholes and actual literal Nazis...
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14/ But we bore some responsibility for that because we got suckered into playing this conventional game and "not playing into his narrative." Anyway, Duke gets 60% of the vote, black and white liberal turnout is lower than it should have been and Duke gets 44% of vote...
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15/ In the Governor's race we dispensed w/ all that bullshit. We talked about Duke's ongoing Nazism and the moral/practical evil of his racist appeals. We discussed how that moral evil would have real world consequences (driving tourists and business away, rightly so, from LA)..
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16/ Because it was wrong, and it was not who we wanted to be, and it was not who were were. We were better than that and needed to show the rest of the country that...
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17/ Now, did this flip any of Duke's 1990 voters? Nah, not really. Indeed he got 65k MORE votes in the Governor's race than the Senate race. But it was never about flipping them. We knew that would be almost impossible...
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18/ To flip Duke voters would require that they accept the fact that they had previously voted for a monster, and people are loath to do that. Our goal was not to flip them, but to DRIVE UP TURNOUT among the good folks, many of whom stayed home in 90...
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19/ And that is what happened. The concerted effort of  the anti-Duke forces (not just us), challenging Duke's "politics of prejudice," and making the election about what kind of state we wanted to be, drove turnout through the roof...
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20/ 28,000+ registered on one day alone, between the initial election and runoff (which Duke made bc of the state's open primary system), with tens of thousands more overall: most of them, anti-Duke folks...
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21/ When it was over, Duke had gotten 65k more votes than in 90, but his white share went to 55 (from 60) and overall to 39 (from 44) because the anti-Duke turnout swamped him...So what does this have to do with 2020 and Trump? Do I really need to explain it?...
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22/ First, trying to flip Trump voters is a waste of time. Any of them who regret their vote don't need to be pandered to. They'll do the right thing. Don't focus on them. That said, very few will regret their vote. They cannot accept they voted for a monster or got suckered...
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23/ Duke retained 94% of the folks he got the first time out (and got new people too), as Trump likely will. So forget these people--or at least don't wast time tailoring messages to them. And policy plans for affordable college don't mean shit to them, nor health care...
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24/ Their support for Trump was never about policy. It was about the bigotry, the fact that he hates who they hate...Second, as for the "undecideds." ...Not many of these but seriously? If you're still undecided at this point about this guy...
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25/ Then there is almost no way to know what would get you to make up your mind...I doubt it's a plan to deal with Wall Street though, or infrastructure, or tax policy...
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26/ If anything, I would say crafting an argument that this is an existential crisis for the nation--and making it about Trump's bigotry and who we want to be as a country, would be far more effective in inspiring them to make up their minds...
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27/ And what I know for a FACT is that this message--that Trumpism is a threat to everything we care about and love about this country--is what will inspire the Dem base to vote...and THAT is what this election is about...
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28/ I'm not saying the Dems don't need policy ideas, but focusing on wonky, look-how-much-I've-thought about-this stuff is not going to move the needle in 2020...
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29/ What the left never understands is: we need to stop approaching elections like the goddamned debate team, and start approaching it like the right does, like the cheerleading squad...
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30/ The right knows psychology and we know public policy and sociology...great. The latter does not win elections...
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31/ People who say the Dems should ignore Trump's race baiting because its some genius political strategy calculated to distract us, are idiots. He is no genius. And if you downplay it you NORMALIZE him. If you make this about policy, you NORMALIZE him. He is a racist...
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32/ He is a white nationalist. He is an authoritarian. He and his cult are a threat to the future of the nation and world because of their hatreds. His movement betrays the country's promise. THAT is the message that will drive turnout. Not debates over marginal tax rates...
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33/ Or how we are going to fund schools...And anyone who says we should ignore the race baiting to talk more about Mueller and Russia is an even bigger fool...that's like talking about Duke and late tax payments or other corruptions...it might all be true but is not the point...
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34/ Not to say the House shouldn't impeach over that stuff. They should. But the 2020 candidates must craft a message that is not about that. Trumpism is the threat to America, more than Putin. And Putin didn't birth Trumpism. Conservative White America did...
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Conservative White Americans have loved Putin for years. They love Putin for the same reasons they love Trump. You can check it out in the back pages of this forum.

347Democrats Debate lineup - Page 14 Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup 7/22/2019, 4:36 pm

bigdog



Sal wrote:
bigdog wrote:
You just contradicted yourself.

You said whether policy is "leftist" or "centrist" does not matter when facing fascists.


No, dummy ...

... the choice is not leftist or centrist ...

... it's Trump or NOT Trump.

I'll vote for the Bernie-Marianne Moonbeam ticket, if it comes to that.
Then why do you keep harassing other people who will also vote against Trump, no matter what, calling them Republicans and other unspeakable words like Republican?
If  you don't care if we are centrists, than quit harping and claiming we're not Real Democrats.
That is extremely bad for party unity, not that I think this particular forum will much matter in the long scheme of things.

348Democrats Debate lineup - Page 14 Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup 7/22/2019, 5:23 pm

Sal

Sal

bigdog wrote:
Then why do you keep harassing other people who will also vote against Trump, no matter what, calling them Republicans and other unspeakable words like Republican?
If  you don't care if we are centrists, than quit harping and claiming we're not Real Democrats.
That is extremely bad for party unity, not that I think this particular forum will much matter in the long scheme of things.

You're just touchy.

I don't think I've ever called you a republican.

I don't agree with your electability argument, and I think you've clearly demonstrated an anti-women bias toward the candidates.

Sorry if that hurts your feelings.

The worst thing I've called you is "baby boomer", and while agree that's pretty low, it's not as low as republican.

349Democrats Debate lineup - Page 14 Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup 7/22/2019, 6:07 pm

bigdog



I wear my baby boomer label as a badge of pride.

My generation accomplished more for civil rights than yours could ever dream of accomplishing. And buddy boy, your music still sucks, big time. You people can't even get country music right.  I've already been into my defense of boomers, and you're too young and stupid to understand it, so I won't bore you again. YOU are as incapable of being changed as a Trump voter. 
It wasn't the boomers that didn't vote in 2016, it was the generations younger than ours. All those Bernie or Busters, purists, so spoiled that if they can't get it their way, they choose not to play at all. 
I'm a proud Boomer. Thanks for the compliment.

350Democrats Debate lineup - Page 14 Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup 7/22/2019, 7:55 pm

othershoe1030

othershoe1030

It would be really nice if everybody would just give up the circular firing squad and be happy with an anti-Trump vote. This reminds me of a joke that I'm going to tell badly, but hope you get the point.

Somehow a guy had fallen over the side of a cliff while hiking and another hiker came by just in time to grab him by the hand. He asked: are you religious? Yes, came the reply. Are you Christian? Yes, came the reply. Are you Baptist? Yes, came the reply. What denomination? To which the guy, hanging over the edge of the cliff gave the wrong answer and his "rescuer" let him fall to his death.

The point being, OMG. If the Evangelicals, gun rights supporters, forced birth people, international bankers, corporate lobbyists, and people in the extraction industries can all get together to elect and support this dangerous ninny in the White House, I think we should be able to, shall I say, overlook these rather insignificant differences represented on this forum? Is it possible? Just saying.

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