For Pkrbum, Peedawg and Joanimoroni ...

PkrBum wrote:
Obstruction relies upon collusion...

PkrBum wrote:I'd like to know how an obstruction charge... or any other charge... sticks when there is no collusion.

Obstruction relies upon collusion... this is a house of cards.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/10/24/us/politics/clinton-dnc-russia-dossier.html?referer=https://www.pocketfives.com/f13/president-donald-trump-second-year-723703/index47.html

WASHINGTON — The presidential campaign of Hillary Clinton and the Democratic National Committee paid for research that was included in a dossier made public in January that contained salacious claims about connections between Donald J. Trump, his associates and Russia.

A spokesperson for a law firm said on Tuesday that it had hired Washington-based researchers last year to gather damaging information about Mr. Trump on numerous subjects — including possible ties to Russia — on behalf of the Clinton campaign and the D.N.C.

The revelation, which emerged from a letter filed in court on Tuesday, is likely to fuel new partisan attacks over federal and congressional investigations into Russia’s attempts to disrupt last year’s election and whether any of Mr. Trump’s associates assisted in the effort.

The president and his allies have argued for months that the investigations are politically motivated. They have challenged the information contained in the dossier, which was compiled by a former British spy who had been contracted by the Washington research firm Fusion GPS.

Wordslinger wrote:We now know that Trump asked his attorney to pay off pornstar Daniels to keep quiet about their sexual affair, at the beginning of the 2016 race for the presidency.  It's not rumor but real fact that the payoff took place.

So while collusion with the Russians has not yet been proven, we all know that Trump cheated on his wife for sexual fun and games with a porn-star.  Tell us Dear Forum members, how can you defend this cheating, lying bastard with a dead rat on the top of his head as President of the United States?  From now on, every time you defend his actions, we'll know your own moral standards are on par with his and your credibility here will also be equal to his.

Reality.

EmeraldGhost wrote:

PkrBum wrote:
Obstruction relies upon collusion...

It does?   How so?

Mueller's investigation could find zero evidence of collusion between Trump and the Russians and Trump could still be guilty of obstruction in the firing of Director Comey if his intent was to impede the FBI's investigation.  

PkrBum wrote:
How can Trump have obstructed justice when collusion isn't even illegal? ....

EmeraldGhost wrote:
If Trump fired Comey with the intent of hindering or shutting down an FBI investigation that's obstruction.   No "collusion" required.   And personally, from what I've seen/heard thus far, I think he did.

Trump could be innocent of any "collusion" with the Russians, and still be guilty of obstruction in the Comey firing.


(personally, I don't think anything will come out of these investigations that will lead to the impeachment or prosecution of Trump .... or the prosecution of Hillary Clinton.  Crimes and corruption have occurred I think, but it's going to be just so much fodder for political kabuki theater/mudslinging for the next few years.  And in the meantime, while they entertain us all with this shit-show, they'll continue robbing the taxpayers blind)

Deus X wrote:

EmeraldGhost wrote:
If Trump fired Comey with the intent of hindering or shutting down an FBI investigation that's obstruction.   No "collusion" required.   And personally, from what I've seen/heard thus far, I think he did.

Trump could be innocent of any "collusion" with the Russians, and still be guilty of obstruction in the Comey firing.


(personally, I don't think anything will come out of these investigations that will lead to the impeachment or prosecution of Trump .... or the prosecution of Hillary Clinton.  Crimes and corruption have occurred I think, but it's going to be just so much fodder for political kabuki theater/mudslinging for the next few years.  And in the meantime, while they entertain us all with this shit-show, they'll continue robbing the taxpayers blind)

I think you're right. Even if they uncover evidence of obstruction or money laundering, he's still not going to be convicted even if he is impeached. It takes a two-thirds vote in the Senate to remove him--remember Clinton?--and that's unlikely to happen.

I think we're stuck with him for his full term.

Telstar wrote:

Deus X wrote:

EmeraldGhost wrote:
If Trump fired Comey with the intent of hindering or shutting down an FBI investigation that's obstruction.   No "collusion" required.   And personally, from what I've seen/heard thus far, I think he did.

Trump could be innocent of any "collusion" with the Russians, and still be guilty of obstruction in the Comey firing.


(personally, I don't think anything will come out of these investigations that will lead to the impeachment or prosecution of Trump .... or the prosecution of Hillary Clinton.  Crimes and corruption have occurred I think, but it's going to be just so much fodder for political kabuki theater/mudslinging for the next few years.  And in the meantime, while they entertain us all with this shit-show, they'll continue robbing the taxpayers blind)

I think you're right. Even if they uncover evidence of obstruction or money laundering, he's still not going to be convicted even if he is impeached. It takes a two-thirds vote in the Senate to remove him--remember Clinton?--and that's unlikely to happen.

I think we're stuck with him for his full term.

Yeah were stuck with him so all real Americans should make the rest of his stay as uncomfortable as it could possibly be. Let his own children pray that he just fades away somewhere before he turns their lives and the lives of their children into less than a shoe full of shit.

zsomething wrote:
Hell, it might even be better not to impeach him.  As much as I'd love to see him gone, I'd hate for them to be able to use Mike Pence as a reset button.  Pence is a theocratic maniac, but he has manners, and anyone would seem like a "refreshing restart" after Trump wears the country out.  Pence would probably pass the same kind of horrible, stupid legislation, but with a less offensive face on it.   Also, if he's impeached, his conspiracy-crazed base will forever claim they were "cheated" and that America really loved Trump but some big cabal took him out, etc.   And the longer Trump's in there, the longer the GOP's got to fight a war of attrition against itself.  Trump's destroying that party, turning it into something only white supremacists and the IQ-32 crowd will admit belonging to.  

So, as much as it sucks, it's probably best to just tough out the next three years, let the country play out a bad hand, and let the Dems get the advantage of being the "refreshing reset" when they defeat his idiot ass.  AND, if Trump's kicked out via the vote, his dullard voters will have to accept that most of the country reaaaaaaalllllly fucking doesn't like them.  This needs to end in a way that doesn't leave them much wiggle room for pretending they're actually "loved."    And I'm pretty sure when Trump does get voted out, the count will be massive, because he's wearing people out.   It'll be better if the Dems put up someone good, rather than just relying on Trump-fatigue to get them into office, but either way I don't see this continuing past 2020.  The dude barely made it into office, anyway.  If not for 80,000 votes in those swing states, he'd have failed.  Springsteen plays to far more people than that on any given night.  A lot of Republicans are embarrassed by him, and Dems are fired up to vote against him, so, things are looking pretty good.  So, yeah, I figure grit it out, forget impeachment... it'd be doing them a favor.  I wanna slit the GOP elephant's throat, not help it up.

Meanwhile, Trump can drag along with all his ugly scandals stuck to him, constantly on defense.  Let the Republican party carry that phlegm-boulder along and try to make excuses for it.  It'll destroy them -- and the right-wing evangelical church --  for decades, and they sorely need eradication at this point.  They're not a party anymore, just a cult that feeds on propaganda, sedition, and lies.  

Deus X wrote:

I hate to wax biblical, but the one fly in that ointment is that the Republicans know all this stuff and are already preparing for it. They're upping their donation game and putting a lot of money into their voter-data operation.

Telstar wrote:

Yeah were stuck with him so all real Americans should make the rest of his stay as uncomfortable as it could possibly be. .....

zsomething wrote: ...
Hell, it might even be better not to impeach him.  As much as I'd love to see him gone, I'd hate for them to be able to use Mike Pence as a reset button.    

EmeraldGhost wrote:

Telstar wrote:

Yeah were stuck with him so all real Americans should make the rest of his stay as uncomfortable as it could possibly be. .....

"Real" Americans?    Who, pray tell, are those?  

And who are not "real" Americans?

zsomething wrote:
That's true.  Actually, I think they're hoping for impeachment more than the Dems are.  They'd get a lot more out of it.  Somebody like Pence is what their evangelical base really wants, anyway.  They'd call it a clean slate, and Pence is choirboy enough to capitalize on it.

Dems are outraising them so far, but that fund-raising gap should be wider.  Republicans are running on hype and not much else, so they'll be spending a lot of a propaganda blitz that'll need to be met.

Another point to consider that I forgot earlier is that the economic bubble Trump is building.  It's great in the short-term, but it's very likely to crash later... and it might be best to let him stay in there a bit and let it start showing its signs of decline under him, so the public won't be able to blame it on anyone else.  Yeah, I'm thinking 2020 is probably the best time to kick him out of there, as nice as it'd be to do it sooner.  Gotta look long-term instead of immediate gratification.

Telstar wrote:

EmeraldGhost wrote:

Telstar wrote:

Yeah were stuck with him so all real Americans should make the rest of his stay as uncomfortable as it could possibly be. .....

"Real" Americans?    Who, pray tell, are those?  

And who are not "real" Americans?

Ask the paid Russian troll spammers, like the one that was booted off this forum about a year or so ago.

PkrBum wrote:

EmeraldGhost wrote:

PkrBum wrote:
Obstruction relies upon collusion...

It does?   How so?

Mueller's investigation could find zero evidence of collusion between Trump and the Russians and Trump could still be guilty of obstruction in the firing of Director Comey if his intent was to impede the FBI's investigation.  

How can Trump have obstructed justice when collusion isn't even illegal? So there's no collusion... so no obstruction... just a weaponized fisa court in the hands of a corrupt political party.

If no charges are pressed over that then all bets are off.

PkrBum wrote:I highly doubt there's a case to be made there. We'd know it by now.

PkrBum wrote:What did he specifically obstruct? I highly doubt there's a case to be made there. We'd know it by now.

The leakers have been prolific during the past year.