Should we honor Vietnam Veterans ?

http://lewrockwell.com/vance/vance332.html

I for one will never forget what Vietnam Veterans did – they traveled half way around the world to fight an unjust, immoral, and unnecessary war against people they didn’t know who were no threat to them, their families, or the United States. The Vietnam War was a monstrous evil in every respect. And as Nick Turse documents over and over again in his new book Kill Anything that Moves: The Real American War in Vietnam, the whole war was one murderous My Lai incident, with lots of rape, torture, and mutilation thrown in.

So, why should we honor or respect Vietnam Veterans? Because, as Turse documents, they killed, poisoned, raped, beat, tortured, burned, mutilated, abused, drowned, and sexually exploited the Vietnamese? Of, of course not (it is said), only a few bad apples did those things.

How about because they blindly obeyed the state? How about because they were deceived, ignorant, young, and/or foolish? How about because they had no idea what they were getting into? How about because they were pawns of the state? No (it is said), these reasons are insulting to those who "served," "answered the call," and "fought for our freedoms."

How about because of their courage, sacrifice, bravery, guts, and valor? How about because they did it for "duty, honor, country"? Nice try, but as Fred Reed recently wrote: "There is no honor in going to someone else’s country and butchering people you don’t know because some political general, which is to say some general, told you to; A hit man for the Mafia is exactly as honorable."

TEOTWAWKI wrote:http://lewrockwell.com/vance/vance332.html

I for one will never forget what Vietnam Veterans did – they traveled half way around the world to fight an unjust, immoral, and unnecessary war against people they didn’t know who were no threat to them, their families, or the United States. The Vietnam War was a monstrous evil in every respect. And as Nick Turse documents over and over again in his new book Kill Anything that Moves: The Real American War in Vietnam, the whole war was one murderous My Lai incident, with lots of rape, torture, and mutilation thrown in.

So, why should we honor or respect Vietnam Veterans? Because, as Turse documents, they killed, poisoned, raped, beat, tortured, burned, mutilated, abused, drowned, and sexually exploited the Vietnamese? Of, of course not (it is said), only a few bad apples did those things.

How about because they blindly obeyed the state? How about because they were deceived, ignorant, young, and/or foolish? How about because they had no idea what they were getting into? How about because they were pawns of the state? No (it is said), these reasons are insulting to those who "served," "answered the call," and "fought for our freedoms."

How about because of their courage, sacrifice, bravery, guts, and valor? How about because they did it for "duty, honor, country"? Nice try, but as Fred Reed recently wrote: "There is no honor in going to someone else’s country and butchering people you don’t know because some political general, which is to say some general, told you to; A hit man for the Mafia is exactly as honorable."

Well Teo, you could have always applied for conscientious objector status.

The question should be answered by Mr. Markle who thought that Bill Ayers was a terrorist and forever a bad guy for physically fighting for an end of the Viet Nam war......morality is not always clear. Viet Nam was a mistake. It had a horrible price..........some paid that price and others did not........but what was the Korean War........and as we moved in a cold war environment was all our mistakes without any merit or legitimate concern.......I think History is telling us that it was simply a huge strategic and tactical mistake, but at the time some of our policies appeared to those decision makers to be counter to this monolithic communist threat.....they were wrong.....but why punish the vet who served honorably?

For those of you who have not seen it may I recommend "The Fog of War" a telling story of how the Viet Nam war got out of control and the bad intel surrounding the Gulf of Tonkin incident. We cannot hold those who served responsible for the decisions of our nation's leadership. Personally, when it comes to 'heroes', I believe those who demonstrated against the war in SE Asia should be held in high esteem for it that group who kept the pressure on Johnson then Nixon to end the debacle . . . . after losing 58,214 KIA and millions of Vietnamese dead . . . . . hell we buy frog legs from them now . . a menace? I don't think so.

I play poker with "Tony" who speaks very broken english but is brilliant and is this small Vietnamese man about my age. When I look at him, I think of the stereotypes I heard as a kid, and the nightly body counts on the network news programs.....it is the disconnect of a kid to humanity which is scary......we were really disconnected from what we were really doing. I am ashamed. I really did not protest the war, and in the mid sixties after watching John Wayne in Green Berets I was gung ho......but after my draft number popped up 305 and I realized I could have been drafted the summer after my senior year.......I started reading, and I finally started to see the problems with that war.....late to the game, and shamefully apathetic....but in 1970-1973 the war was winding down, and few of my classmates got drafted or served in the war. It became less patriotic and more futile and not serving American interests in my eyes.

How many times do we have to bury this dead horse? Fact.... Many Vietnam Vets could give a shit about what you think. You will not ask any questions or make any charges that we have not thought of a 100 times. The world was a different place 50 years ago. We did what we did. We cant go back. One think I will say, I have never had anyone say "fuck you for being a vet" to my face. Maybe tomorrow but not yet.

Hallmarkgrad1 wrote:How many times do we have to bury this dead horse? Fact.... Many Vietnam Vets could give a shit about what you think. You will not ask any questions or make any charges that we have not thought of a 100 times. The world was a different place 50 years ago. We did what we did. We cant go back. One think I will say, I have never had anyone say "fuck you for being a vet" to my face. Maybe tomorrow but not yet.

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Easy now grad, I'm not berating vets . . . . never have and never will . . . . I brought up the history because if we do not learn lessons from out mistakes we are destined to repeat them. Viet Nam will cast a long shadow over our nation's ignorance for being sucked into a deadly nightmare. Just sayin' . . .

Yeah I was 17 when I went in I trusted my leaders. Never again

Hallmarkgrad1 wrote:How many times do we have to bury this dead horse? Fact.... Many Vietnam Vets could give a shit about what you think. You will not ask any questions or make any charges that we have not thought of a 100 times. The world was a different place 50 years ago. We did what we did. We cant go back. One think I will say, I have never had anyone say "fuck you for being a vet" to my face. Maybe tomorrow but not yet.

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Teo's pussy hurts again today, so he trashes Viet Vets. (yawn).

Oh, Teo...OF COURSE we should honor our veterans, wherever they fought. Whether by draft or lottery or enlistment, they put their lives on the line for us. I happen to be a little older than Seaoat, so I remember the experience vividly because it affected so many of my peers, including my boyfriend who enlisted and then...well, I've told that story before. Some of my freshman classmates had returned from the war...a few more the next year.

I was always firmly against it. Then my grandfather told me how he and mamaw had received an invitation to the Johnson family reunion...OMG, I was floored...that was not long after Johnson declined to run again...also not long before he died. I want to believe that he wasn't the evil man he's portrayed to be. I think he was manipulated, because I know that JFK wanted to end the war...and nationalize the banks...and a whole host of other things that weren't popular with the post-Cold War chickenhawks.

I also honor the people who spoke out against the war, despite the obvious disconnect between them and those who served in the military. Who wants to be told, when they spent the last few years with their life on the line in horrible conditions, being injured, losing their buddies far from home, that their cause was futile, misdirected, based on lies? I sure wouldn't. Who wants to return home, already feeling separate from their countrymen, and be called a baby killer? But the majority who demonstrated and spoke out were NOT at odds with the soldiers; on the contrary...I feel that most who opposed the war did not dishonor our fighting men and women. They just wanted an end, and for our people to come home.

Remember, Nixon promised to end the war when he was elected, and it's said that Johnson's negotiations to achieve that very end were thwarted by Republicans playing partisan politics. And, of course, Nixon lied...and Kissinger, McNamara, some generals, etc.

Willie wrote:

Hallmarkgrad1 wrote:How many times do we have to bury this dead horse? Fact.... Many Vietnam Vets could give a shit about what you think. You will not ask any questions or make any charges that we have not thought of a 100 times. The world was a different place 50 years ago. We did what we did. We cant go back. One think I will say, I have never had anyone say "fuck you for being a vet" to my face. Maybe tomorrow but not yet.

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Teo's pussy hurts again today, so he trashes Viet Vets. (yawn).

Calm down, Will. Teo is a vet.

It should have been you under that rain of death we unleashed nightly assholes like you won't be missed Willie...some really good people were killed for nothing you Piece of Shit.

Floridatexan wrote:

Willie wrote:

Hallmarkgrad1 wrote:How many times do we have to bury this dead horse? Fact.... Many Vietnam Vets could give a shit about what you think. You will not ask any questions or make any charges that we have not thought of a 100 times. The world was a different place 50 years ago. We did what we did. We cant go back. One think I will say, I have never had anyone say "fuck you for being a vet" to my face. Maybe tomorrow but not yet.

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Teo's pussy hurts again today, so he trashes Viet Vets. (yawn).

Calm down, Will. Teo is a vet.

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I respect his service. He's not just a Vet like me....he's a war Vet.


I do not respect his bigotry and misogyny, his trashing of our Country, his absurd medical rants, his insipid conspiracy theories, his pious religiosity, etc, etc, etc.

It's ironic he refuses to ask for any help to deal with the shitty hand he was dealt....an assumption based on his overall trashing of doctors, hospitals, and the entire American health care industry.

TEOTWAWKI wrote:It should have been you under that rain of death we unleashed nightly assholes like you won't be missed Willie...some really good people were killed for nothing you Piece of Shit.

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Guess what prick....? You died in Nam, you just haven't accepted it yet.

Get some help.

Back on the PNJ forum we had a gung ho wave the flag type who actually said those who rebelled against the "supreme leaders" in Iran, the Iranians who protested them in the streets of Tehran, should have stayed home. That it didn't matter what government they were protesting, they shouldn't be doing it. Because nobody should be doing that.
Even though this person hated muslims and muslim countries, he believed it was morally wrong for the citizens of Iran or any other country to protest against their government.
It was because he was so indoctrinated with this mindset of "my country right or wrong" that in his mind it even should apply to people who are living in tyranny.

Teo is having the courage to say "my country right or wrong" may not be as good an idea as so many have always believed.

Bob wrote:Back on the PNJ forum we had a gung ho wave the flag type who actually said those who rebelled against the "supreme leaders" in Iran, the Iranians who protested them in the streets of Tehran, should have stayed home. That it didn't matter what government they were protesting, they shouldn't be doing it. Because nobody should be doing that.
Even though this person hated muslims and muslim countries, he believed it was morally wrong for the citizens of Iran or any other country to protest against their government.
It was because he was so indoctrinated with this mindset of "my country right or wrong" that in his mind it even should apply to people who are living in tyranny.

Teo is having the courage to say "my country right or wrong" may not be as good an idea as so many have always believed.

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It takes more courage to come out of the shadows and seek help than it does to disdain the system he wishes to blame for all his problems....the ones he doesn't have.

When I said he should get some help, I wasn't trying to be sarcastic. If I posted the same stuff as he does, and allowed my therapist to read it, I'd be Bakered and up on the 6th floor of Baptist Towers.

It really is that irrational.

TEOTWAWKI wrote:http://lewrockwell.com/vance/vance332.html

I for one will never forget what Vietnam Veterans did – they traveled half way around the world to fight an unjust, immoral, and unnecessary war against people they didn’t know who were no threat to them, their families, or the United States. The Vietnam War was a monstrous evil in every respect. And as Nick Turse documents over and over again in his new book Kill Anything that Moves: The Real American War in Vietnam, the whole war was one murderous My Lai incident, with lots of rape, torture, and mutilation thrown in.

So, why should we honor or respect Vietnam Veterans? Because, as Turse documents, they killed, poisoned, raped, beat, tortured, burned, mutilated, abused, drowned, and sexually exploited the Vietnamese? Of, of course not (it is said), only a few bad apples did those things.

How about because they blindly obeyed the state? How about because they were deceived, ignorant, young, and/or foolish? How about because they had no idea what they were getting into? How about because they were pawns of the state? No (it is said), these reasons are insulting to those who "served," "answered the call," and "fought for our freedoms."

How about because of their courage, sacrifice, bravery, guts, and valor? How about because they did it for "duty, honor, country"? Nice try, but as Fred Reed recently wrote: "There is no honor in going to someone else’s country and butchering people you don’t know because some political general, which is to say some general, told you to; A hit man for the Mafia is exactly as honorable."

Dude, I KNOW now that some mil guy stole your wife.

Hallmarkgrad1 wrote:It is 2 am. I cant sleep. I am thinking about the entire Military Draft/Vietnam/protest and the true path of history. Mr Teo speaks his mind and rocks the boat and people get upset, Is Teo one of the very protesters that people now credit with stopping the Vietnam war? Just a different time and place? I agree with a lot of what Mr Teo says. While I might differ on some of his "conspiratorial" theorys, there is much truth in many things he states.
Many years ago some of us were asked to serve our country. It was said, it was our duty, the price that we paid for living in a free society. My father, my Uncles, the guy next door, many of my teachers all were veterans and many had fought in combat. In some ways, it was the mark of a man to serve. Some of the questions than ran thought your mind at night were, could you do it? Could you take basic training and all the Bull shit that went along with it? Could you take leaving you family and friends for a couple of years to play games? For some of us the answer was YES. No excuses, I accept. Deal the damn cards, throw the dice and I am all in. I bet my damn life I can beat the game. No one asked if we thought it was right or wrong, just do you want to play.
The trouble is that is almost impossible to describe the relief and feeling of accomplishment when you completed your commitment. It really hits a nerve when I read of people who never played the game, preach to me about my "inferiority complex" and question my motives. The 1000,s of reasons people had for not joining us. I was too small, I was too fat, I was too busy, I had other things to do. At one time these people pissed me off, now their excuses are just laughable.
Right or wrong I did it. It changed me. You can make all the comments that you wish. I know who I am.
When you speak of the Vietnam war do you perceive that I might be arrogant and have a chip on my shoulder? You are damn right I do.

You deeply feel the words you just wrote. And you communicated those feelings to us as well as anything I've read. When you put on the uniform, you were making the ultimate commitment and potentially the ultimate sacrifice.

Your words could be translated into just about every language. And they would have the same meaning for every soldier of every country who has put on the uniform, past or present.

But that also holds true for the German and Japanese soldiers in WW2. And the Iranian soldier who is doing the bidding of the Ayatollah.
And the Syrian soldiers who are fighting for Assad. And for these soldiers in North Korea...



And if and when the American government is on the wrong side of morality, it will apply to American soldiers too.

When human beings everywhere have given themselves over to the notion "my country right or wrong", we can always expect it to result in as much wrong as right.

So since I'm such a smartass punk traitor and ingrate coward and know-it-all about this, the next question becomes what is my solution for it?
I have none. I don't have any indication that any solution even exists.

I will repeat this story again. We were refueling one afternoon in fairly heavy seas (1972). Of course when you are hooked up at sea to a tanker you must match speed and course exactly without much deviation or you will have an unwanted break away and a discharge of thick black fuel all over your ship. While in that process we picked up a small boat directly in our path. We maintained course and the small sampan due to the skill of it's operator managed to split the difference and go between the two ships. Has it went by I saw the crew was an old man and a young girl maybe 14 years old. I focused on her, they were so close it was easy to see every feature of her face. It was a very quick encounter lasting only seconds. She was a lovely child helping her grandfather fish to survive in the middle of a terrible war with so much death. Since I was in the Combat information center I had full selection of the radars to watch and also knew pretty much everything that was going on around me. I found out that the US Navy had decided to sink the "target" that had just passed by us. A heavy cruiser turned its guns on it and opened fire. Radar is a pretty amazing thing. I was painting the shells in the air as they left the guns. I watched the signal increase from the sampan and as the splash died away from the explosions nothing was left. That little girl and her grandpa were gone blown to bloody bits being fought over by the very fish they came to catch. I still see her face.

Hallmarkgrad1 wrote:I am very aware of "right" and "wrong" sides. One night I shared a bottle of Jack Daniels with some Japanese vets, who most likely tired to kill my Father. Would have, if they had the chance. And of the flip side, he would have killed them. It was a real WTF moment. ....

I love to read your comments on this, Hallmark. Good comments. You speak with wisdom and experience. It's sure easy for some to look back and judge others, knowing now what wasn't known or so clear back then.

I've had some interesting conversations with my Japanese friends about WW2. My dad fought in WW2 and some of their dads and uncles fought. Japanese citizens went through almighty hell during the war. They went through hell before Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The Japanese I've talked to seem to pretty much blame their government back then for most of what happened. It's still a controversial subject in Japan about whether Japanese today (and especially Japanese leaders) should honor some of the high up level "war criminals" from WW2. One of my Japanese friends has an uncle in his 90s. He worked at an aircraft factory during the war. He thought back then, during the war, that Japan had no chance of winning against the US. But he was a Japanese citizen, just doing his job, building airplanes for his country. As for just the regular people, regular soldiers, I think my Japanese friends see it pretty much the same way that I see it...they were just young soldiers, fighting for their country. The US had our war propaganda but so did the Japanese back then. Japanese citizens were told such horrible things about Americans that many Okinawans killed themselves rather than risk being captured by the enemy. That said, I have been to the war memorial in Nagasaki and based on what I read (in English) at the memorial, the people who put together that memorial do not seem to want to give the Japanese government any credit (or blame) for what happened during WW2. The focus of the memorial, in telling the history of the war, completely glosses over (let's just say it skips) the evils that the Japanese committed throughout Asia before the war and completely glosses over their attack on Pearl Harbor. So the propaganda continues and I don't think many young Japanese really know what happened during WW2. But heck, most young Americans don't know, either....Same probably can be said for Korea and Vietnam.

Of course, we honor our war veterans. Damn straight, we do! Most of us do, anyway.