Disclosure Laws

A Pennsylvania woman has appealed to the state Supreme Court in her suit against a home seller and real estate agent who failed to disclose that a murder-suicide had taken place in the home she purchased.

http://news.yahoo.com/pa-homeowner-sues-seller-over-homes-bloody-past-210734556--abc-news-money.html


Florida also does not have a law that a murder or suicide must be disclosed by the seller/agent.

Do you think this is something that should be disclosed?

I have mixed feelings on this. On one hand, what you don't know can't hurt you. And it's sad when a family is stuck with a house that won't sell because of a murder in their family. But I tell you what--I would not want to live in a murder house. It would creep me out going to sleep every night in a room where a guy had murdered his wife and killed himself.

Do you think this is something that should be disclosed?

I think we should wait for Mr. Markle's input on this because he may have actual experience which he can bring to bear, but my first reaction would be that it would be silly to mandate that murders must be reported, but conversely it should be part of a due diligence disclosure that a buyer can present to a seller prior to making an offer. If the Seller has no knowledge of a murder or suicide, yet it is imputed because they should have known....well that is wrong. You could have somebody who was killed in an older home at the turn of the century, however something within the seller's actual knowledge when confronted with a direct question from the seller could easily be handled during contract negotiations:

Is the Seller aware of any code violations, crime committed on the property, and or death at the property?

It should still be buyer aware in my opinion with due diligence on the part of the buyer, rather than government mandating more regulations. If the seller lies, then the buyer would have a potential cause of action.

Nekochan wrote:I have mixed feelings on this. On one hand, what you don't know can't hurt you. And it's sad when a family is stuck with a house that won't sell because of a murder in their family. But I tell you what--I would not want to live in a murder house. It would creep me out going to sleep every night in a room where a guy had murdered his wife and killed himself.

But as you said, what you don't know can't hurt you.

I have lived in two places where murders had taken place, but they were both very old homes (actually one was a large flat), and it never bothered me in the least. The place that was a flat had been an old whorehouse back in the old days (saloon was downstairs) and a logger and a fisherman got into a fight over one of the girls, and the logger shot and killed the fisherman. Coulda been in my room, I didn't know or care. If I recall correctly, the whorehouse was called, "Fanny's House of Joy." lol.

I don't even recall the story about the other home I lived in, but the weird thing is that right after I moved out (maybe a month after), a guy with whom I was acquainted moved into the little apartment that was upstairs from our place which took up the entire downstairs, shot a man eleven times with a .22 and killed him in the bathroom (which was directly above my bedroom), put him in the old claw-foot bathtub, and proceeded to pour bleach all over him each day "to keep down the smell." He finally abandoned that plan for whatever reason, and stuffed him into the bathroom closet (also directly above my bedroom, more specifically, directly above my bed... or where it used to be, the only place you could put it), and commenced with his daily bleaching. Eventually, my friend who'd moved into my old bedroom noticed a smelly, weird substance dripping onto his bed... He was also acquainted with the (unbeknownst to him at the time) murderer upstairs, so he went up to inquire about it.

He noticed a foul smell, which he now knows was the smell of death with a bit bleach thrown in for good measure, but was told that the bathtub had been leaking and the resident murderer had been after the landlord (who was a total shitbird) to get it fixed.

In time, things happened and the local sheriff came knocking on the murderer's door, recognized the smell, found the body, and he was arrested for murder. My friend was completely creeped-out that the substance that had leaked onto his bed and had stained the ceiling was blood and dead body goo, but he stayed after the shitbird landlord got a professional to come in and replace the ceiling in his room.

riceme wrote:

Nekochan wrote:I have mixed feelings on this. On one hand, what you don't know can't hurt you. And it's sad when a family is stuck with a house that won't sell because of a murder in their family. But I tell you what--I would not want to live in a murder house. It would creep me out going to sleep every night in a room where a guy had murdered his wife and killed himself.

But as you said, what you don't know can't hurt you.

I have lived in two places where murders had taken place, but they were both very old homes (actually one was a large flat), and it never bothered me in the least. The place that was a flat had been an old whorehouse back in the old days (saloon was downstairs) and a logger and a fisherman got into a fight over one of the girls, and the logger shot and killed the fisherman. Coulda been in my room, I didn't know or care. If I recall correctly, the whorehouse was called, "Fanny's House of Joy." lol.

I don't even recall the story about the other home I lived in, but the weird thing is that right after I moved out (maybe a month after), a guy with whom I was acquainted moved into the little apartment that was upstairs from our place which took up the entire downstairs, shot a man eleven times with a .22 and killed him in the bathroom (which was directly above my bedroom), put him in the old claw-foot bathtub, and proceeded to pour bleach all over him each day "to keep down the smell." He finally abandoned that plan for whatever reason, and stuffed him into the bathroom closet (also directly above my bedroom, more specifically, directly above my bed... or where it used to be, the only place you could put it), and commenced with his daily bleaching. Eventually, my friend who'd moved into my old bedroom noticed a smelly, weird substance dripping onto his bed... He was also acquainted with the (unbeknownst to him at the time) murderer upstairs, so he went up to inquire about it.

He noticed a foul smell, which he now knows was the smell of death with a bit bleach thrown in for good measure, but was told that the bathtub had been leaking and the resident murderer had been after the landlord (who was a total shitbird) to get it fixed.

In time, things happened and the local sheriff came knocking on the murderer's door, recognized the smell, found the body, and he was arrested for murder. My friend was completely creeped-out that the substance that had leaked onto his bed and had stained the ceiling was blood and dead body goo, but he stayed after the shitbird landlord got a professional to come in and replace the ceiling in his room.

You have crammed a lot of life experiences in your few years riceme...LOL..you are a good story teller also....

hallmarkgrad wrote:My friend killed his self and the man across the street and 2 houses down also committed suicide. My friend was in Alabama so the law may be different. But I was under the assumption that you had to notify the buyer of the event. I really dont know but both house were very hard to sell. Side note Never kill your self with a shotgun if you give a damn about friends and family.

Old Charlie Wilkerson, of the Gas Company fame, shot himself in the head with a shotgun. I heard it wasn't pretty.

The main salon in my gallery was in the original emergency room of the Old Sacred Heart Hospital on 12th Ave. I would guess hundreds of folk passed in that space. I used to go up there an sit in the middle of the room, in total darkness late @ night just waiting for something, anything....that I might perceive as a manifestation.

Not a thing....zip.

But I did enjoy the quiet time.

My dad died in one of the bedrooms of my P'cola house. I have slept in that room and I have to admit it crossed my mind, but it didn't bother me.

Of course, he wasn't killed, either.

riceme wrote:
If I recall correctly, the whorehouse was called, "Fanny's House of Joy." lol.

Holy shit!

Now, that's a great name for a whorehouse.

Did you have to come in the back door?

I saw a man shoot himself with a shotgun about 5' away from me..
He put it to his heart and blasted.. I'm glad he didn't feel like takin anybody with him..

TEOTWAWKI wrote:
You have crammed a lot of life experiences in your few years riceme...LOL..you are a good story teller also....

It is most certainly true that I have crammed a lot of living into almost 41-years now. Glad you enjoyed the story... We always loved the fact that we lived in an old whorehouse, and wanted to get a professional-looking sign that looked like the original made up saying, "Fanny's House of Joy" to put back up over our front door. lol.

Sal wrote:

riceme wrote:
If I recall correctly, the whorehouse was called, "Fanny's House of Joy." lol.

Holy shit!

Now, that's a great name for a whorehouse.

Did you have to come in the back door?

Isn't it a great name for a whorehouse?? We loved it... see my above post about always wanting to get a replica of the original sign made to put up over our FRONT door. The BACK door went out onto the roof of the lower part of the building, which we used as a "patio" on which to party.

Until about 5 or 6 years ago, violent or unusual deaths had to be disclosed to the customer. You did not have to disclose if someone had simply died in the house.

I'm highly skeptical about the law. Without permission from the Seller it is illegal for an agent to disclose any sort of death, no matter how horrendous, in a house. We have a legislative office and full time lobbyists who watch every law related to real estate and private property rights. This came through attached to another law.

Just seems somewhat possible that a legislature had a house he/she could not sell due to the history.

In 2006 a cop in Eustis killed his wife, his best friend and his wife before committing suicide.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-02-06-four-dead_x.htm

The story doesn't mention that the six year old son inherited the house. Of course he could not sell the house so an attorney represented the little boy. The attorney knew of this law and took a further step to get a court order preventing the Realtor and the Realtor's company from disclosing the murders and suicide.

The house was sold and the buyer then found out from a neighbor about the grisly history. Now they don't want to live in the house and buyers were offering very low prices.

Personally, I think it should be disclosed. What the law says is that such an event does not effect the material value of the property and therefore does not have to be disclosed. It CAN be disclosed if you have permission from the seller.

I have listed and sold several properties where there have been murders. This was before this law went into effect. Some people were bothered, others were not. I've also sold several properties with very old, small family cemeteries. They've actually been more difficult than the murder houses.

KEEP IN MIND if you are buying a house, there is no law against YOU visiting the neighbors in the early evening, calling the police department and the school board. Who knows more about a house than the neighbors. Sometimes MORE than you want to know! Caveat Emptor

Today I'd have to make a decision, if the Seller demanded I not disclose a murder suicide, do I want the listing? Not as easy as it sounds. My JOB is to help people solve their real estate problem. Is that not a problem?

Yomama wrote:My dad died in one of the bedrooms of my P'cola house. I have slept in that room and I have to admit it crossed my mind, but it didn't bother me.

Of course, he wasn't killed, either.

Decades ago I was showing a house in a nice neighborhood. I'd called the day before, no answer, called the agent and they said call the next day and then use the lock box.

Pulled up with my customers, rang the bell, knocked, opened the door and called out. No answer. We went through the house and walked into the master bedroom. I jumped when I saw an elderly woman in bed with a book. I apologized for disturbing her and then realized she wasn't moving.

The wife of my customers actually took it a little better than her husband. I thought he as going to pass out right there. Strange, they never did buy a house from me....