For Boards and Sal: If you're happy with America under Obama, I understand why you like Hillary!

othershoe1030 wrote:I agree with just about everything you said about Hillary and would rather see Bernie get the nomination, which could still happen via some earth shaking revelation that would render HRC unsupportable. Perhaps this could be something uncovered about the Clinton Foundation (my wildest dreams here based on NOTHING) dealing in drugs or arms or pulling some totally underhanded political stunt...but that likely is not happening.

I take solace in hearing some of her New York constituents talk about what a good job she did for them when she was in the Senate. I think she is better at doing her job than she is at running for the office.

Many times in foreign policy there are only poor and worse choices to be made and I think you listed several. I'm afraid we are faced with the same thing regarding our eventual candidates in this election, poor and worse. So...

Wordslinger wrote:Her judgement on foreign issues has been a total disaster:  for the invasion of Iraq, for the overthrow of Gaddafi, for a neutral zone in Syria (requiring American troops and manpower), for solidifying our relations with the Saudi monarchy (even though we now know these bastards financed 9-11), and she's for the continuance of current pharma regulations which do not permit bidding in Obamacare -- which she advocates instead of a single-payer system.  

My heart says she's  nothing but an ego-driven political opportunist with no values whatever, and she's tied to corrupt companies and countries from whom she gladly accepts contributions.  You've convinced me she's smart and can get things done.  But if you want me to vote for her, convince me she's a good person.

Hillary is corruption and Trump is insanity.

As for what Trump will do if elected, I wouldn't believe anything based on what he's said so far.  He changes his position on issues on a daily ... no, correction ... on an hourly basis.  

Bernie may not be as cunning as either of his two opponents, but he's a breath of fresh air, in a room where the smell of crapola is steadily intensifying.


What the hell is she going to get done when nobody trusts her?

What is Trump going to get done when nobody trusts him?

Make me feel good about Hillary ... please!

Wordslinger wrote:Her judgement on foreign issues has been a total disaster:  for the invasion of Iraq, for the overthrow of Gaddafi, for a neutral zone in Syria (requiring American troops and manpower), for solidifying our relations with the Saudi monarchy (even though we now know these bastards financed 9-11), and she's for the continuance of current pharma regulations which do not permit bidding in Obamacare -- which she advocates instead of a single-payer system.  

My heart says she's  nothing but an ego-driven political opportunist with no values whatever, and she's tied to corrupt companies and countries from whom she gladly accepts contributions.  You've convinced me she's smart and can get things done.  But if you want me to vote for her, convince me she's a good person.

Hillary is corruption and Trump is insanity.

As for what Trump will do if elected, I wouldn't believe anything based on what he's said so far.  He changes his position on issues on a daily ... no, correction ... on an hourly basis.  

Bernie may not be as cunning as either of his two opponents, but he's a breath of fresh air, in a room where the smell of crapola is steadily intensifying.


What the hell is she going to get done when nobody trusts her?

What is Trump going to get done when nobody trusts him?

Make me feel good about Hillary ... please!

boards of FL wrote:

Wordslinger wrote:Her judgement on foreign issues has been a total disaster:  for the invasion of Iraq, for the overthrow of Gaddafi, for a neutral zone in Syria (requiring American troops and manpower), for solidifying our relations with the Saudi monarchy (even though we now know these bastards financed 9-11), and she's for the continuance of current pharma regulations which do not permit bidding in Obamacare -- which she advocates instead of a single-payer system.  

My heart says she's  nothing but an ego-driven political opportunist with no values whatever, and she's tied to corrupt companies and countries from whom she gladly accepts contributions.  You've convinced me she's smart and can get things done.  But if you want me to vote for her, convince me she's a good person.

Hillary is corruption and Trump is insanity.

As for what Trump will do if elected, I wouldn't believe anything based on what he's said so far.  He changes his position on issues on a daily ... no, correction ... on an hourly basis.  

Bernie may not be as cunning as either of his two opponents, but he's a breath of fresh air, in a room where the smell of crapola is steadily intensifying.


What the hell is she going to get done when nobody trusts her?

What is Trump going to get done when nobody trusts him?

Make me feel good about Hillary ... please!

There are only two electable candidates in this election.  I'll vote for the one  whose policies are more closely related to my own.  This is how grown ups deal with reality.  Does this mean that I think either candidate will lead us to a utopia?  No.  Does this mean that I think that either candidate would be superior to all other potential candidates?  No.  But my choices are clear.  Regardless of how I vote, one of two candidates is going to win the election.   Being that the case, I'll throw my support behind one of those two.   Doing anything else is simply a waste of time.

Let's say a doctor diagnoses you with a treatable disease.  You have two options:  1) Treat the disease for the rest of your life.  This will alleviate all symptoms but will require you to take medication.  2)  Don't treat the disease and suffer with the symptoms until you die prematurely.

People who refuse to face the reality of elections are like someone in the above example saying "Well neither option is good!  I neither want the symptoms nor do I want to take medication for the rest of my life!"  They then go to see "faith healers", they pray, and try other such nonsense forms of treatment until they die prematurely from their treatable disease.

In the context of elections, however, it is unfortunate because this type of ignorance affects the rest of us.  If someone is naive enough to go the "faith healer" route, fair enough.  They can win the Darwin award and remove themselves from the gene pool.   With elections, however, they give us Donald Trump.

Bob wrote:If Sal and bds walked into a McDonalds,  wordslinger,  and discovered the only two items on the menu were a shit sandwich and a snot burger,  they would choose one or the other and eat it.

You and I,  on the other hand,  would have more sense than that.

Salinsky wrote:

I don't eat at McDonalds, Bob.

McDonalds is for dumbasses and old people ...

Wordslinger wrote:OK, I get it.  Because her opponent is dangerously insane, both of you will vote for Hillary even though she can't be trusted, has bad judgement, and is a total, self-seeking political opportunist.  

And that's supposed to be the smart move?

God Bless America ...

boards of FL wrote:

Yes, it is the smart move.  A Clinton presidency will be worlds different than a Trump presidency.  Just look back at the Nader voters in 2000.  Thanks to those Nader voters making a "smart move", thousands of Americans are dead, tens of thousands are wounded, and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians are dead.  Our perennial budget surpluses turned into the worst budget deficit in US history.  We were left with the worst economy since the Great Depression.  Scientific research was set back nearly a decade due to religious dogma.  Is this what you call a "smart move"?  Is throwing your vote away on an unelectable candidate at the expense of all of the above really what you consider to be a "smart move"?

boards of FL wrote:

Wordslinger wrote:OK, I get it.  Because her opponent is dangerously insane, both of you will vote for Hillary even though she can't be trusted, has bad judgement, and is a total, self-seeking political opportunist.  

And that's supposed to be the smart move?

God Bless America ...

Yes, it is the smart move.  A Clinton presidency will be worlds different than a Trump presidency.  Just look back at the Nader voters in 2000.  Thanks to those Nader voters making a "smart move", thousands of Americans are dead, tens of thousands are wounded, and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians are dead.  Our perennial budget surpluses turned into the worst budget deficit in US history.  We were left with the worst economy since the Great Depression.  Scientific research was set back nearly a decade due to religious dogma.  Is this what you call a "smart move"?  Is throwing your vote away on an unelectable candidate at the expense of all of the above really what you consider to be a "smart move"?

2seaoat wrote:Hillary Clinton is far from perfect, but she is quite capable of making needed changes and the idea that she is corrupt and evil is simply Ivory tower talk.  The real world has terribly bad people trying to hurt America.   The real world has naive people who think utopia is simply voting for an idealist who will magically transform congress and institutions.   It starts with congress.  It starts with having folks who are experienced and working for average Americans.  This desire to have an American revolution by voting for Bernie would be a disaster to the very goals he espouses.   I love Bernie.   I could vote for him for President, but to characterize Hillary as evil and working for Wall Street is incredibly naive.  You do not throw out the baby with the bathwater and real change in policy impacting banks and Wall Street require levels of sophistication, experience, and policy which clearly Bernie has none of the above with huge conceptual gaps in his proposed policies.  I respect Hillary for calling pie in the sky for what it is.....an appeal to stupid people.

othershoe1030 wrote:

2seaoat wrote:Hillary Clinton is far from perfect, but she is quite capable of making needed changes and the idea that she is corrupt and evil is simply Ivory tower talk.  The real world has terribly bad people trying to hurt America.   The real world has naive people who think utopia is simply voting for an idealist who will magically transform congress and institutions.   It starts with congress.  It starts with having folks who are experienced and working for average Americans.  This desire to have an American revolution by voting for Bernie would be a disaster to the very goals he espouses.   I love Bernie.   I could vote for him for President, but to characterize Hillary as evil and working for Wall Street is incredibly naive.  You do not throw out the baby with the bathwater and real change in policy impacting banks and Wall Street require levels of sophistication, experience, and policy which clearly Bernie has none of the above with huge conceptual gaps in his proposed policies.  I respect Hillary for calling pie in the sky for what it is.....an appeal to stupid people.

I agree with your argument. What drew me to Bernie was his emphasis on two closely related realities: the system is rigged and the wealth/income gap. As far as I can remember Hillary did not focus on these two very obvious problems facing the country. Now that Bernie has moved the conversation to the left and awakened like minded people I'm hoping we can keep some kind of pressure on the Democrats so they'll address these problems, which are vast and complicated.

I think Bernie overreached by going with the free college idea. It is not an outrageous idea given so many other countries already do this but it freaked a lot of people out because as usual we as Americans are largely unfamiliar with how things are done in other developed countries.

We have to eat, McDonald's notwithstanding, so SOMEONE will be elected in November, we can't walk out the door and skip a meal so anyone who really sees the very real possibility that Trump could become our next Commander in Chief, Supreme Court appointing person, international representative etc. had better put on their big boy pants and vote for the only person on the ballot who is not Trump and save us all from a disastrous four years.

2seaoat wrote:Hillary Clinton is far from perfect, but she is quite capable of making needed changes and the idea that she is corrupt and evil is simply Ivory tower talk.  The real world has terribly bad people trying to hurt America.   The real world has naive people who think utopia is simply voting for an idealist who will magically transform congress and institutions.   It starts with congress.  It starts with having folks who are experienced and working for average Americans.  This desire to have an American revolution by voting for Bernie would be a disaster to the very goals he espouses.   I love Bernie.   I could vote for him for President, but to characterize Hillary as evil and working for Wall Street is incredibly naive.  You do not throw out the baby with the bathwater and real change in policy impacting banks and Wall Street require levels of sophistication, experience, and policy which clearly Bernie has none of the above with huge conceptual gaps in his proposed policies.  I respect Hillary for calling pie in the sky for what it is.....an appeal to stupid people.

Salinsky wrote:Actually, the Sanders and Trump movements are both fueled by the same sentiment - white working class rage at the loss of white privilege.

The truth is that this latest economic downturn is the first where working class whites felt the pain fully without being largely shielded by white privilege, and they are rightfully outraged.

Now to be clear, Sanders' policy prescriptions addressing the income and wealth gaps are the correct ones, while Trump is busy doubling down on intolerance, division, and bigotry.

But, Sanders radical message of revolution does not resonate as much with minorities because they've always known the game is rigged, and they're cool with incremental change through the establishment mechanism they've come to trust.

There is a reason that there will be some bleed over from Sanders supporters into the Trump camp despite the disparate nature of their messages.

And, the reason is ugly.

Floridatexan wrote:
Absolute hogwash, Sal.  No one who supports Bernie Sanders could possibly be attracted by Trump.  They're as different as night and day.  And Sanders doesn't just attract disaffected white people.  Anyone who thinks Trump has the solution to anything just doesn't understand economics.

Salinsky wrote:Sanders is morphing into Nader.

The speech he gave last night in California was absolutely shameful.

boards of FL wrote:

Wordslinger wrote:OK, I get it.  Because her opponent is dangerously insane, both of you will vote for Hillary even though she can't be trusted, has bad judgement, and is a total, self-seeking political opportunist.  

And that's supposed to be the smart move?

God Bless America ...

Yes, it is the smart move.  A Clinton presidency will be worlds different than a Trump presidency.  Just look back at the Nader voters in 2000.  Thanks to those Nader voters making a "smart move", thousands of Americans are dead, tens of thousands are wounded, and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians are dead.  Our perennial budget surpluses turned into the worst budget deficit in US history.  We were left with the worst economy since the Great Depression.  Scientific research was set back nearly a decade due to religious dogma.  Is this what you call a "smart move"?  Is throwing your vote away on an unelectable candidate at the expense of all of the above really what you consider to be a "smart move"?