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Pensacola Discussion Forum » Politics » Ranchers are being subsidized by taxpayers

Ranchers are being subsidized by taxpayers

+4
Markle
no stress
ZVUGKTUBM
2seaoat
8 posters

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2seaoat



I just heard on the Tom Hartman radio show this afternoon that the unit price of grazing on federal land is $1.50 and private grazing is $19-25 per unit.

I also heard that the Koch brothers have 300k acres of land in Montana and have herds grazing. They talked about the billions of dollars of subsidy to these ranchers who are competing against private landowners who have to pay the higher unit cost for their cattle allowing the subsidy to go to these big ranchers while the little guy with a 1000 acre grazing ranch is getting killed.

So a poor kid just had food stamps cut, yet that rich rancher who is stealing from the federal government almost 20 bucks per unit gets rich and claims freedom and liberty when being asked to pay the measly buck fifty a unit. The real crime is not that this guy has cheated the people of the United States for a buck fifty a unit, the real crime is why his lease fee is not doubled or tripled so that other landowners and ranchers are getting screwed, and the American people are getting screwed.

It is also time to revisit all gas and oil leases as these special interests and their propaganda appeal to low hanging fruit who think that this is about liberty.....it is about stealing America....which always requires propaganda and useful idiots to allow the same.

ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

2seaoat wrote:I just heard on the Tom Hartman radio show this afternoon that the unit price of grazing on federal land is $1.50 and private grazing is $19-25 per unit.

I also heard that the Koch brothers have 300k acres of land in Montana and have herds grazing.  They talked about the billions of dollars of subsidy to these ranchers who are competing against private landowners who have to pay the higher unit cost for their cattle allowing the subsidy to go to these big ranchers while the little guy with a 1000 acre grazing ranch is getting killed.

So a poor kid just had food stamps cut, yet that rich rancher who is stealing from the federal government almost 20 bucks per unit gets rich and claims freedom and liberty when being asked to pay the measly buck fifty a unit.  The real crime is not that this guy has cheated the people of the United States for a buck fifty a unit, the real crime is why his lease fee is not doubled or tripled so that other landowners and ranchers are getting screwed, and the American people are getting screwed.

It is also time to revisit all gas and oil leases as these special interests and their propaganda appeal to low hanging fruit who think that this is about liberty.....it is about stealing America....which always requires propaganda and useful idiots to allow the same.

Now I realize why PaceDog has been fulminating so much (on multiple threads, even) over that rancher in Nevada.

Thanks for clearing this up, Seoat......

http://www.best-electric-barbecue-grills.com

2seaoat



It is worse. We have a thread from our resident silver spoon complaining once again that her inherited wealth is being taxed. These ranchers will leave their children millions of dollars of inheritance based on subsidy from the American people. They do not want to pay taxes on PB nor do they want to pay grazing fees because of this sense of entitlement which a Latin American Oligarchy member thinks is a birthright. I would laugh at silver spoons in my professional life, yet when we all but eliminated a progressive estate tax and record low corporate taxes are being collected, we realize this sense of entitlement has swept this country and the propaganda is to destroy the federal government and all taxation so that a feudal system of wealth and status replaces merit which this country was built. It is so fricking insane to hear someone who receives public subsidy on PB to complain that a family of four where a machinist supported his family for 10 years, but was laid off because the plant was stolen and relocated in China, is now a leach, and the family who made millions off that stolen plant, some how had anything to do with American productivity........they simply want fungible and protected wealth without societal contribution......The only good thing about WWI and WWII is that the people of this country died for their since of country and we did not tolerate the Oligarchy getting a free ride......but now they think it is an entitlement.....that they can steal graze land......not pay taxes on Navarre Beach, or never face an estate tax again........guess what.......taxation is going to return to the mid eighties and the people of this country are going to retake the property of this nation, and expect wealth to be based on merit not a free ride and inheritance.

Guest


Guest

Save the grass..!!

2seaoat



Save the grass..!!

Pay for the grass

Save the gas and oil

Pay for the gas and oil

Guest


Guest

So what Seaoat so are lots of jobs

Guest


Guest

2seaoat wrote:Save the grass..!!

Pay for the grass

Save the gas and oil

Pay for the gas and oil

You don't have to sell me comrade... that grass ain't gonna grow itself. With the right amount of regulation we should be able to fundamentally transform the antiquated concept of animals grazing on free grass... it simply can't be sustained.

no stress

no stress

PkrBum wrote:
2seaoat wrote:Save the grass..!!

Pay for the grass

Save the gas and oil

Pay for the gas and oil

You don't have to sell me comrade... that grass ain't gonna grow itself. With the right amount of regulation we should be able to fundamentally transform the antiquated concept of animals grazing on free grass... it simply can't be sustained.
 cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers 

2seaoat



With the right amount of regulation we should be able to fundamentally transform the antiquated concept of animals grazing on free grass... it simply can't be sustained.

Yes, comrade, and when I go onto your property in Michigan and begin selecting hardwoods to cut down and harvest they will be FREE trees......and they too can be sustained.....actually that is the ticket....Weyerhaeuser just chopping down your hardwoods....free trees......they will grow back.

Markle

Markle

Sounds like a personal problem Progressives.

Democrats passed the Farm Bill and President Barack Hussein Obama signed the bill.

So who are you going to blame now?

2seaoat



Sounds like a personal problem Progressives.

Democrats passed the Farm Bill and President Barack Hussein Obama signed the bill.

So who are you going to blame now?

The oligarchies to be successful must cross party lines.

Guest


Guest

Everything is oligarch to u

Sal

Sal

If the gubament had shot the Bundys, they'd be news.

The gubament didn't do that, so the Bundys are just deadbeats.

Fuck 'em.

Nekochan

Nekochan

I think that ranchers should pay a reasonable fee to have their cattle graze on federal lands. I think the Feds handled the Bundy situation very poorly. But I think Bundy is wrong when he claims that the land belongs to the State of Nevada and that the Feds have no say in the matter.

othershoe1030

othershoe1030

2seaoat wrote:It is worse.  We have a thread from our resident silver spoon complaining once again that her inherited wealth is being taxed.   These ranchers will leave their children millions of dollars of inheritance based on subsidy from the American people.  They do not want to pay taxes on PB nor do they want to pay grazing fees because of this sense of entitlement which a Latin American Oligarchy member thinks is a birthright.   I would laugh at silver spoons in my professional life, yet when we all but eliminated a progressive estate tax and record low corporate taxes are being collected, we realize this sense of entitlement has swept this country and the propaganda is to destroy the federal government and all taxation so that a feudal system of wealth and status replaces merit which this country was built.   It is so fricking insane to hear someone who receives public subsidy on PB to complain that a family of four where a machinist supported his family for 10 years, but was laid off because the plant was stolen and relocated in China, is now a leach, and the family who made millions off that stolen plant, some how had anything to do with American productivity........they simply want fungible and protected wealth without societal contribution......The only good thing about WWI and WWII is that the people of this country died for their since of country and we did not tolerate the Oligarchy getting a free ride......but now they think it is an entitlement.....that they can steal graze land......not pay taxes on Navarre Beach, or never face an estate tax again........guess what.......taxation is going to return to the mid eighties and the people of this country are going to retake the property of this nation, and expect wealth to be based on merit not a free ride and inheritance.

You are exactly right in this analysis. The system in contributing to the income/wealth gap. Adjustments need to be made in the tax code. The difficulty with that is that it is exactly those in power or with the most influence on power who are going to feel the impact from a more progressive tax system. Their resistance is going to be fierce and unrelenting. They have the money, time and legal advise to defend their current position. A very good in-depth look at this situation is in a book by David CayJohnston.

FREE LUNCH
How the Wealthiest Americans Enrich Themselves at Government Expense (and Stick You With the Bill).
By David Cay Johnston.
323 pp. Portfolio. $24.95.

2seaoat



The system in contributing to the income/wealth gap. Adjustments need to be made in the tax code.

I know people get mad at me when I tell them that I was a huge fan of Ronald Reagan. I voted for him twice and I believed that supply side and trickle down. Never in my life was I so wrong, and it took me almost 30 years to realize that this good man who started to attack waste and government inefficiency probably single handedly started the destruction of the American middle class. All the while he was creating this massive fail, he was making the best foreign policy decisions than any other president 30 years before his presidency.

The problem is that the solution is not going to be over night. It starts with raising the tax rates on the highest brackets, lowering the estate tax exemptions, increasing enforcement of diversion of corporate profits off shore. Eliminating subsidies and tax loopholes which have corporation paying the lowest amount since wwII. It must be combined with increases in the minimum wage......not overnight, but a decade long plan to return the rates to the mid sixty real dollar value. It will take massive campaign financing reform because both Democrats and Republicans are guilty of being nothing more than prostitutes for special interests.
It also will take a constant effort by Americans to attack the propaganda which has allowed folks with low intelligence to be manipulated and fleeced of their family's economic future, all the while being diverted about gun rights, abortion, and wars which cannot be paid. This country will begin to fight this battle, but the media is being bought up, the internet will be restricted, the police state will expand as American citizens will become the victim, not like this scofflaw, but for standing up against the oligarchy which in my opinion has never been as strong in this country since the British made us a colony of England to be milked like a cow, as we now chew our cud, we will need leadership and activism from all Americans....we are at war....and the American middle class has been losing.....we WILL win the battle.

othershoe1030

othershoe1030

2seaoat wrote:The system in contributing to the income/wealth gap. Adjustments need to be made in the tax code.

I know people get mad at me when I tell them that I was a huge fan of Ronald Reagan.  I voted for him twice and I believed that supply side and trickle down.   Never in my life was I so wrong, and it took me almost 30 years to realize that this good man who started to attack waste and government inefficiency probably single handedly started the destruction of the American middle class.  All the while he was creating this massive fail, he was making the best foreign policy decisions than any other president 30 years before his presidency.

The problem is that the solution is not going to be over night.  It starts with raising the tax rates on the highest brackets, lowering the estate tax exemptions, increasing enforcement of diversion of corporate profits off shore.   Eliminating subsidies and tax loopholes which have corporation paying the lowest amount since wwII.  It must be combined with increases in the minimum wage......not overnight, but a decade long plan to return the rates to the mid sixty real dollar value.  It will take massive campaign financing reform because both Democrats and Republicans are guilty of being nothing more than prostitutes for special interests.
It also will take a constant effort by Americans to attack the propaganda which has allowed folks with low intelligence to be manipulated and fleeced of their family's economic future, all the while being diverted about gun rights, abortion, and wars which cannot be paid.  This country will begin to fight this battle, but the media is being bought up, the internet will be restricted, the police state will expand as American citizens will become the victim, not like this scofflaw, but for standing up against the oligarchy which in my opinion has never been as strong in this country since the British made us a colony of England to be milked like a cow, as we now chew our cud, we will need leadership and activism from all Americans....we are at war....and the American middle class has been losing.....we WILL win the battle.

You know the old saying, Garbage in, Garbage out. The media is a big problem. Public opinion can be changed and people can be awakened but as you say it takes time. I often wonder how bad it has to get before people will wake up and notice that the economy is not working well for most people.

The main attitude from the right is that the reason some people are better off than others is because they work harder and those who are poor are in that condition because they are lazy. I think more and more people are beginning to notice that hard work does not always reap big bucks.

But that attitude is a way to shift responsibility from the system to the victim and makes people think there is nothing they can do to change things. They don't realize what an uphill battle being poor can be, how hard it is to climb out of a hole much less climb the rungs of the income ladder. Sure, it can be done but it the deck is stacked against it.

Floridatexan

Floridatexan


Look...there's a whole book available.

WELFARE RANCHING: THE SUBSIDIZED DESTRUCTION OF THE AMERICAN WEST

http://www.publiclandsranching.org/book.htm

The majority of the American public does not know that livestock grazing in the arid West has caused more damage than the chainsaw and bulldozer combined. Welfare Ranching: The Subsidized Destruction of the American West is a seven-pound book featuring 346 pages of articles and photographs by expert authors and photographers on the severe negative impacts of livestock grazing on western public lands. Selected articles and photographs are available online below. You can also click here to buy Welfare Ranching at a discount.

Floridatexan

Floridatexan


The public lands of the United States are a hallmark of our democracy and harbor some of the greatest resources of our nation. Federally managed lands-owned by all Americans-total 623 million acres, or more than 25 percent of the U.S. land base. There are four major federal land agencies-the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), the U.S. Forest Service (USFS), the National Park Service (NPS), and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS). State agencies and other government departments oversee millions of acres of additional public land.

The vast majority of the federal public lands are in the western United States, where they serve as sources of clean water, recreation, scenic beauty, and inspiration. The public lands are wildlife habitat and in many cases provide the only remaining suitable environments for jeopardized species. On the large blocks of acreage provided by the public lands, restoration and maintenance of landscape-scale ecological processes-such as wildfires-are feasible and desirable. Elsewhere, the prerogatives of commercial enterprise and other human needs usually dominate.

Unfortunately, resource exploitation of various kinds has driven public lands management for many decades. Mining, logging, oil and gas drilling, and even farming have occurred and continue to occur on public lands. But the most widespread commercial use of western public lands is livestock production. Nearly all public lands that have any forage potential for livestock are leased for grazing. This includes 90 percent of BLM lands, 69 percent of USFS lands, and a surprising number of wildlife refuges and national parks. This land-your public land-is frequently managed as if it were a private feedlot rather than the common heritage of all Americans.

Next time you go out to visit your public lands and encounter a fence you must cross, a gate you must open, a campground fouled with cow manure, a trout stream trampled by cows, a hay meadow rather than a natural wetland, weeds instead of native grasses, cattle and sheep instead of prairie dogs, remember, this is your land. Do you like what you see?

This land is your land, this land is my land
From California to the New York Island
From the redwood forest to the Gulf Stream waters
This land was made for you and me.

-Woody Guthrie

--------------

I read a comment on another thread from someone who had hiked on public land and was chased off at the point of a gun by an irate rancher.

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