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Pensacola Discussion Forum » General Discussion » HIGH SPEED RAIL...Remember when Gov. Rick Scott was brutalized by the Progressives for turning down the BILLIONS for a HIGH SPEED LINE in Florida

HIGH SPEED RAIL...Remember when Gov. Rick Scott was brutalized by the Progressives for turning down the BILLIONS for a HIGH SPEED LINE in Florida

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cool1
stormwatch89
Nekochan
2seaoat
Markle
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Sal

Sal

boards of FL wrote:Because Scott turning down federal funds for project X is exactly the same as a California judge cutting off state funding for project Y.
lol

2seaoat



High speed rail is a necessary component of our transportation needs. It will be in Florida in the distant future. The network of high speed rail had to start and be successful where the population could sustain the same. From that corridor it should have expanded and connected to other cities. Conceptually, the scattered model in low population areas is a misallocation of badly needed infrastructure improvement resources. A high speed from DC to Atlanta, and then through central florida to Miami makes sense only many years into the future. The only corridor which should have been invested was the Boston to DC, with future expansions being made off the commercial success of the same.....not forced prematurely into markets which lack the population to sustain the high acquisition costs of right of ways and maintenance of the equipment.

boards of FL

boards of FL

Nekochan wrote:It would have cost Florida lots of money for years down the road.  How long do you think the federal funds would flow?
Someone offered me a free Mercedes the other day, which would replace my 1983 Honda accord hatchback.  I turned it down, of course.  Imagine the the insurance on such a vehicle! Terrible deal for me.


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boards of FL wrote:
Nekochan wrote:It would have cost Florida lots of money for years down the road.  How long do you think the federal funds would flow?
Someone offered me a free Mercedes the other day, which would replace my 1983 Honda accord hatchback.  I turned it down, of course.  Imagine the the insurance on such a vehicle! Terrible deal for me.
Actually... A better parallel would be just the motor and front left tire off a mercedes. Sweet ride dude.

2seaoat



I think a better analogy would be if Wal Mart decided to start building stores by some central dictate, and some of the stores were positioned in areas where the customer base would not allow the store to operate profitably. The store may be free, but the ongoing expense would sap profits from the corporation. However, siting which was based on population and solid sales projection would have allowed the same total dollar amount to be invested, but it would have been sustained and it would have allowed continued success and growth of the corporation.

This had more to do with stimulus dollars being allocated fairly than a targeted and rational basis for investing in high speed rail. Politics cause a very illogical allocation, and my biggest fear is that the necessary high speed rail component will be set back decades because of this misallocation.

stormwatch89

stormwatch89

2seaoat wrote:Nice try, but I never supported high speed rail in Florida.  I have always supported the same in the Boston to Washington corridor.  I however, believed as I do today that the infrastructure money should have been  variable with those states who did not want to spend it on high speed rail where investments could be made in highways which would cut waste occurring because of gridlock.   Bridges, additional exits, and widening projects could actually have saved more fuel than high speed, and investment in infrastructure allowed for private employment growth.

So again, high speed rail is a very good thing, but only one corridor in America makes sense at this time.  However, if the nation had a connected grid, it would be utilized.   The problem is that by spreading resources over areas which fail to meet population requirements, you are actually being counterproductive, and the expansion of the high speed rail system should be from the eastern corridor.
Yes, dear. Of course, dear.

boards of FL

boards of FL

If high speed rail cannot operate profitably in a tourist driven economy which also happens to have one of the highest densities of retirees who have a lifetime's worth of savings to blow, where can it?


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stormwatch89 wrote:
2seaoat wrote:Nice try, but I never supported high speed rail in Florida.  I have always supported the same in the Boston to Washington corridor.  I however, believed as I do today that the infrastructure money should have been  variable with those states who did not want to spend it on high speed rail where investments could be made in highways which would cut waste occurring because of gridlock.   Bridges, additional exits, and widening projects could actually have saved more fuel than high speed, and investment in infrastructure allowed for private employment growth.

So again, high speed rail is a very good thing, but only one corridor in America makes sense at this time.  However, if the nation had a connected grid, it would be utilized.   The problem is that by spreading resources over areas which fail to meet population requirements, you are actually being counterproductive, and the expansion of the high speed rail system should be from the eastern corridor.
Yes, dear. Of course, dear.
Lol... You're such a sweet lady stormy. I agree tho... seagoat should be assigned to support another govt boondoggle.

I've decided to name a new ideology for him... Addledism. Hell... I'm not even sure the guy is competent anymore.

Sal

Sal

boards of FL wrote:If high speed rail cannot operate profitably in a tourist driven economy which also happens to have one of the highest densities of retirees who have a lifetime's worth of savings to blow, where can it?
Some people haven't driven the I-4 corridor recently.

Joanimaroni

Joanimaroni

boards of FL wrote:If high speed rail cannot operate profitably in a tourist driven economy which also happens to have one of the highest densities of retirees who have a lifetime's worth of savings to blow, where can it?
In a densely populated area that requires mass transit. Retirees, with money to blow, will drive their Cadillacs.

ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

The importance of rail cannot be overlooked. Trains are the 3rd most fuel-efficient means of moving goods and passengers in the world. Shipment by vessel is #1, movement by motorcycle is #2, and movement by rail is #3. Also, trains can be powered by just about any kind of fuel. BNSF railroad is already experimenting with using CNG to power its locomotives, because gas is cheaper than diesel.

At some point in the future (likely a few decades from now), the price of diesel will make rail very cost-effective compared to other means of transportaion. That's when these initiatives will be more feasible.

http://www.best-electric-barbecue-grills.com

2seaoat



The importance of rail cannot be overlooked.

This is where I disagreed with some of the infrastructure priorities. First, the main Burlington Northern lines to Midwest inter modal centers are increasing the height of bridges over the rails. The are going to be able to transport three deep containers bringing a 30% improvement in productivity with containerized rail transport. If those same dollars outside the Boston to DC corridor had been allocated to bridge and crossing improvements, nationwide we could have seen ten fold savings in fuel consumption using traditional rail technology on freight, and would have been a better allocation of our capital investment dollars.

The High speed rail is a critical component of the increasing efficiencies of rail transport. Those cognitively impaired or shills for the special interests which will be hurt by expanded rail efficiencies will not stop the advancements. Sadly, the allocation of dollars outside the eastern corridor was a mistake and those dollars should have gone into bridge improvement to expand transport capacity and efficiency.

Guest


Guest

2seaoat wrote:The importance of rail cannot be overlooked.

This is where I disagreed with some of the infrastructure priorities. First, the main Burlington Northern lines to Midwest inter modal centers are increasing the height of bridges over the rails. The are going to be able to transport three deep containers bringing a 30% improvement in productivity with containerized rail transport. If those same dollars outside the Boston to DC corridor had been allocated to bridge and crossing improvements, nationwide we could have seen ten fold savings in fuel consumption using traditional rail technology on freight, and would have been a better allocation of our capital investment dollars.

The High speed rail is a critical component of the increasing efficiencies of rail transport. Those cognitively impaired or shills for the special interests which will be hurt by expanded rail efficiencies will not stop the advancements. Sadly, the allocation of dollars outside the eastern corridor was a mistake and those dollars should have gone into bridge improvement to expand transport capacity and efficiency.
Cattle need carriers these days. Animals need farms and zoos. Humans need authoritarian govts.

The secret to an evolved State is the amount of control and direction a govt can exert on its populace.

stormwatch89

stormwatch89

[/quote]Yes, dear.  Of course, dear.[/quote]Lol... You're such a sweet lady stormy. I agree tho... seagoat should be assigned  to support another govt boondoggle.

I've decided to name a new ideology for him... Addledism. Hell... I'm not even sure the guy is competent anymore.[/quote]
Smile  I like it.  So would he then be an Addledist?



Last edited by stormwatch89 on 11/28/2013, 1:37 am; edited 1 time in total

Markle

Markle

Nekochan wrote:The high speed rail tracks in Japan are elevated and do not require highway crossings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZjYL847KnI&list=TLz4zgeHty9TY
Any of the high speed rail lines which have been built in Japan over the past 10-15 years are all losing money. Putting more strain on their already suffering economy.

Markle

Markle

cool1 wrote:cool video---200 mph---Shocked
None of the proposed trains for Florida would have reached anywhere near 200 mph. The speed for the Florida trains was to be 125 mph. The "estimated" costs were unaffordable and the real costs would have been two to three times the proposed costs. Just like ObamaCare.

Markle

Markle

ZVUGKTUBM wrote:The importance of rail cannot be overlooked. Trains are the 3rd most fuel-efficient means of moving goods and passengers in the world. Shipment by vessel is #1, movement by motorcycle is #2, and movement by rail is #3. Also, trains can be powered by just about any kind of fuel. BNSF railroad is already experimenting with using CNG to power its locomotives, because gas is cheaper than diesel.

At some point in the future (likely a few decades from now), the price of diesel will make rail very cost-effective compared to other means of transportaion. That's when these initiatives will be more feasible.
We're not the rest of the world.

Passenger trains are efficient and economically feasible in very high population density areas. Within high density areas, light rail is effective for passengers.

Regarding long distance rail, we should expand freight lines. The terminals necessary for freight lines are a fraction of the cost of passenger terminals and can be located on cheap land accessible to our Interstate systems.

In my opinion, instead of paying rich people to by electric cars we should be giving truck lines and owner operators a $10,000 tax credit to convert their rigs to CNG. I don't know that it is feasible to convert locomotives from diesel to CNG.

Markle

Markle

Sal wrote:
boards of FL wrote:If high speed rail cannot operate profitably in a tourist driven economy which also happens to have one of the highest densities of retirees who have a lifetime's worth of savings to blow, where can it?
Some people haven't driven the I-4 corridor recently.
The vast majority of people will NOT give up their car to drive from Orlando to Tampa.

ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

I don't know that it is feasible to convert locomotives from diesel to CNG.

It's already being done, Gumby.

http://www.marketplace.org/topics/business/railroad-make-shift-natural-gas-locomotives

I read about this a few months ago. The shifts away from liquid fuels derived from petroleum is going to come in shifts and spurts, but it will still come. They are not going to be driven by environmental concerns or from fretting about global warming/greenhouse gasses. The changes will, however be driven by "green" initiatives--i.e. "moolah." Money is the only thing that is going to spur these developments. The price of petroleum only goes up from here on out. The cheap and easy-to-get oil has already been taken, and new oil found is technically complex and very expensive to recover. The high price of petroleum is going to drive people to look for alternatives using gasoline and diesel the way we currently use it in transportation. That is why fleets are already moving to CNG-powered trucks.

The infrastructure for these changes is already being built, even in little old Pensacola. The next time you are cruising up Pine Forest Road, keep an eye out for the Energy Services of Pensacola public CNG refueling station. Anybody can refuel any CNG-powered vehicle there, and they proudly display the price out front: The equivalence of a little over $2.00 per gallon.....

HIGH SPEED RAIL...Remember when Gov. Rick Scott was brutalized by the Progressives for turning down the BILLIONS for a HIGH SPEED LINE in Florida - Page 2 Cng1010

http://www.best-electric-barbecue-grills.com

boards of FL

boards of FL

Joanimaroni wrote:
In a densely populated area that requires mass transit. Retirees, with money to blow, will drive their Cadillacs.
Imagine a world in which you are a tourist. You travel to Florida from elsewhere. You don't have a car. Then, there is high speed rail. Canadians would support this shit on their own in the winter months. We also have this baby boomer thing, and we are a state where a lot of old people like to go.

Crazier ideas have come to fruition. We have a minor league baseball field on Pensacola waterfront.


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2seaoat



but the speaking down to us peons is a bit much.Evil or Very Mad

I would disagree.....most peons I know have pretty good cognitive skills.....I find that those who do not think they are peons are often challenged.

Markle

Markle

boards of FL wrote:
Joanimaroni wrote:
In a densely populated area that requires mass transit. Retirees, with money to blow, will drive their Cadillacs.
Imagine a world in which you are a tourist.  You travel to Florida from elsewhere.  You don't have a car.  Then, there is high speed rail.  Canadians would support this shit on their own in the winter months.  We also have this baby boomer thing, and we are a state where a lot of old people like to go.

Crazier ideas have come to fruition.  We have a minor league baseball field on Pensacola waterfront.
How many billions of dollars did the baseball field cost?

High speed rail is OLD technology and incredibly expensive. NONE of the studies in Florida showed it could be supported without subsidies.

People who arrive here without a car would do what they do everywhere else. They would go from the airline terminal, to the rental counter and pick up their car. Just as they would have to do when they got to the terminal of a high speed train.

For your edification:

http://americandreamcoalition.org/pdfs/HSRLayoutFL.pdf

This is from four years old. Estimated prices since then, as in California, have skyrocketed far past these estimates.

You don't even know where the high speed rail was planned do you?

boards of FL

boards of FL

I don't even know where begin. I doubt you have any copy and paste fodder here either, as this is a topic that you aren't likely fed cliff notes for.

You're right. No one would opt for the less hassle, cheaper high speed rail if that option were available in addition to car rental. Your reasoning is sound for that as well. No one uses high speed rail where it isn't available. That means they won't use it where it is either. Seriously brilliant reasoning right there, Markle. I'd go as far as to say it is one of your most insightful observations ever.

And why would elderly people who travel in their retirement want to pay less money to relax and do whatever they want as they are brought to their destination; particularly when they can pay much more to deal with driving on the florida interstate?

You seem really smart when you are off script. You should ditch the copy-and-paste persona and generate your own original posts more often. Cough cough.


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boards of FL

boards of FL

Markle wrote:
For your edification:

http://americandreamcoalition.org/pdfs/HSRLayoutFL.pdf 

My favorite part:


Given such tiny benefits, the real impetus behind high-speed rail is the desire to change Americans’ life- styles: increasing the share of families living in multi- family housing while discouraging new single-family homes, and increasing the share of travel taking transit and intercity rail while discouraging driving. Such be- havioral efforts will be costly and produce few environ- mental or social benefits.

Yeah! This high speed rail is just liberals tryin' to take our freedom!

This is basically red meat for idiots.


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Markle

Markle

boards of FL wrote:
Markle wrote:
For your edification:

http://americandreamcoalition.org/pdfs/HSRLayoutFL.pdf 
My favorite part:


Given such tiny benefits, the real impetus behind high-speed rail is the desire to change Americans’ life- styles: increasing the share of families living in multi- family housing while discouraging new single-family homes, and increasing the share of travel taking transit and intercity rail while discouraging driving. Such be- havioral efforts will be costly and produce few environ- mental or social benefits.
Yeah!  This high speed rail is just liberals tryin' to take our freedom!

This is basically red meat for idiots.
And yet, you cannot deny that it is true OR that is outrageously unaffordable for the few people who would use the thing.

EVEN California is finding that is grossly unaffordable...even for them!

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