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Something to Think About on Thanksgiving Week

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Hospital Bob
TEOTWAWKI
knothead
Sal
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Sal

Sal

Cue all lizard brains to judge and condemn ...

Why I Make Terrible Decisions, or, poverty thoughts

There's no way to structure this coherently. They are random observations that might help explain the mental processes. But often, I think that we look at the academic problems of poverty and have no idea of the why. We know the what and the how, and we can see systemic problems, but it's rare to have a poor person actually explain it on their own behalf. So this is me doing that, sort of.

Rest is a luxury for the rich. I get up at 6AM, go to school (I have a full courseload, but I only have to go to two in-person classes) then work, then I get the kids, then I pick up my husband, then I have half an hour to change and go to Job 2. I get home from that at around 1230AM, then I have the rest of my classes and work to tend to. I'm in bed by 3. This isn't every day, I have two days off a week from each of my obligations. I use that time to clean the house and soothe Mr. Martini and see the kids for longer than an hour and catch up on schoolwork. Those nights I'm in bed by midnight, but if I go to bed too early I won't be able to stay up the other nights because I'll fuck my pattern up, and I drive an hour home from Job 2 so I can't afford to be sleepy. I never get a day off from work unless I am fairly sick. It doesn't leave you much room to think about what you are doing, only to attend to the next thing and the next. Planning isn't in the mix.

When I was pregnant the first time, I was living in a weekly motel for some time. I had a minifridge with no freezer and a microwave. I was on WIC. I ate peanut butter from the jar and frozen burritos because they were 12/$2. Had I had a stove, I couldn't have made beef burritos that cheaply. And I needed the meat, I was pregnant. I might not have had any prenatal care, but I am intelligent enough to eat protein and iron whilst knocked up.

I know how to cook. I had to take Home Ec to graduate high school. Most people on my level didn't. Broccoli is intimidating. You have to have a working stove, and pots, and spices, and you'll have to do the dishes no matter how tired you are or they'll attract bugs. It is a huge new skill for a lot of people. That's not great, but it's true. And if you fuck it up, you could make your family sick. We have learned not to try too hard to be middle-class. It never works out well and always makes you feel worse for having tried and failed yet again. Better not to try. It makes more sense to get food that you know will be palatable and cheap and that keeps well. Junk food is a pleasure that we are allowed to have; why would we give that up? We have very few of them.

The closest Planned Parenthood to me is three hours. That's a lot of money in gas. Lots of women can't afford that, and even if you live near one you probably don't want to be seen coming in and out in a lot of areas. We're aware that we are not "having kids," we're "breeding." We have kids for much the same reasons that I imagine rich people do. Urge to propagate and all. Nobody likes poor people procreating, but they judge abortion even harder.

Convenience food is just that. And we are not allowed many conveniences. Especially since the Patriot Act passed, it's hard to get a bank account. But without one, you spend a lot of time figuring out where to cash a check and get money orders to pay bills. Most motels now have a no-credit-card-no-room policy. I wandered around SF for five hours in the rain once with nearly a thousand dollars on me and could not rent a room even if I gave them a $500 cash deposit and surrendered my cell phone to the desk to hold as surety.

Nobody gives enough thought to depression. You have to understand that we know that we will never not feel tired. We will never feel hopeful. We will never get a vacation. Ever. We know that the very act of being poor guarantees that we will never not be poor. It doesn't give us much reason to improve ourselves. We don't apply for jobs because we know we can't afford to look nice enough to hold them. I would make a super legal secretary, but I've been turned down more than once because I "don't fit the image of the firm," which is a nice way of saying "gtfo, pov." I am good enough to cook the food, hidden away in the kitchen, but my boss won't make me a server because I don't "fit the corporate image." I am not beautiful. I have missing teeth and skin that looks like it will when you live on b12 and coffee and nicotine and no sleep. Beauty is a thing you get when you can afford it, and that's how you get the job that you need in order to be beautiful. There isn't much point trying.

Cooking attracts roaches. Nobody realizes that. I've spent a lot of hours impaling roach bodies and leaving them out on toothpick pikes to discourage others from entering. It doesn't work, but is amusing.

"Free" only exists for rich people. It's great that there's a bowl of condoms at my school, but most poor people will never set foot on a college campus. We don't belong there. There's a clinic? Great! There's still a copay. We're not going. Besides, all they'll tell you at the clinic is that you need to see a specialist, which seriously? Might as well be located on Mars for how accessible it is. "Low-cost" and "sliding scale" sounds like "money you have to spend" to me, and they can't actually help you anyway.

I smoke. It's expensive. It's also the best option. You see, I am always, always exhausted. It's a stimulant. When I am too tired to walk one more step, I can smoke and go for another hour. When I am enraged and beaten down and incapable of accomplishing one more thing, I can smoke and I feel a little better, just for a minute. It is the only relaxation I am allowed. It is not a good decision, but it is the only one that I have access to. It is the only thing I have found that keeps me from collapsing or exploding.

I make a lot of poor financial decisions. None of them matter, in the long term. I will never not be poor, so what does it matter if I don't pay a thing and a half this week instead of just one thing? It's not like the sacrifice will result in improved circumstances; the thing holding me back isn't that I blow five bucks at Wendy's. It's that now that I have proven that I am a Poor Person that is all that I am or ever will be. It is not worth it to me to live a bleak life devoid of small pleasures so that one day I can make a single large purchase. I will never have large pleasures to hold on to. There's a certain pull to live what bits of life you can while there's money in your pocket, because no matter how responsible you are you will be broke in three days anyway. When you never have enough money it ceases to have meaning. I imagine having a lot of it is the same thing.

Poverty is bleak and cuts off your long-term brain. It's why you see people with four different babydaddies instead of one. You grab a bit of connection wherever you can to survive. You have no idea how strong the pull to feel worthwhile is. It's more basic than food. You go to these people who make you feel lovely for an hour that one time, and that's all you get. You're probably not compatible with them for anything long-term, but right this minute they can make you feel powerful and valuable. It does not matter what will happen in a month. Whatever happens in a month is probably going to be just about as indifferent as whatever happened today or last week. None of it matters. We don't plan long-term because if we do we'll just get our hearts broken. It's best not to hope. You just take what you can get as you spot it.

I am not asking for sympathy. I am just trying to explain, on a human level, how it is that people make what look from the outside like awful decisions. This is what our lives are like, and here are our defense mechanisms, and here is why we think differently. It's certainly self-defeating, but it's safer. That's all. I hope it helps make sense of it.

http://killermartinis.kinja.com/why-i-make-terrible-decisions-or-poverty-thoughts-1450123558

knothead

knothead

Sal, at the first read (before seeing the link at the bottom) I thought this YOu and that you were female for goodness sakes! freaked me out momentarily that's all . . . kinda humorous actually.

What is not humorous is being stuck in the world described in the words of this poor woman. Is it her fault? Can she improve? How? These questions obviously are troubling to you as they are to me. I worked in Chicago for a couple years myself and spent some time in the infamous South side where poverty is endemic and I just felt that for the most part they are a hopeless group . . . no way out kinda . . . they try to improve themselves anc catch crap from the homies and if they become a homie in order to survive they will most likely end up in the pen or dead with the latter being preferable. It's cultural deficiency(s) that stymie policies aimed at the problem with very little improvement.

The story line provide an insight into her struggles and her unending day to day battle to provide and survive. It will take people much smarter than I to unravel this complex institutional problem but it was very poignant so thanks for posting . . . I care but WTF what do we do?

Sal

Sal

knothead wrote: . . . I care but WTF what do we do?    
I dunno, knothead.

I think having a little empathy is a start.

The corporate media has done a laudable job of dehumanizing the poor, and pitting the middle class against them.

Far too many people begrudge them the few pennies the government sees fit to toss their way.

I just thought it was an interesting perspective, especially in contrast to the "WTH??" thread where people are camping out a week ahead of time to score the latest electronic gadget.

I suspect Jesus was correct when he said, "You will always have the poor among you."

It'd just be nice if while bowing their heads to give thanks for the giblets, more of these so-called christians would love their neighbors.

Guest


Guest

You mean love isn't paying taxes?

TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

Of course you know that Christians STILL feed millions in spite of the government continually robbing them to give their money to the poor for cheap votes ? .... Yes Christians help but with a much better motive than the slimeball government. Drop some money in salvation army pot. There will be a lot more of it percentage wise make it to the poor than what the government takes.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

TEOTWAWKI wrote:Of course you know that Christians STILL feed millions in spite of the government continually robbing them to give their money to the poor for cheap votes ? .... Yes Christians help but with a much better motive than the slimeball government. Drop some money in salvation army pot. There will be a lot more of it percentage wise  make it to the poor than what the government takes.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/26/salvation-army-theft_n_2193591.html

TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

Bob wrote:
TEOTWAWKI wrote:Of course you know that Christians STILL feed millions in spite of the government continually robbing them to give their money to the poor for cheap votes ? .... Yes Christians help but with a much better motive than the slimeball government. Drop some money in salvation army pot. There will be a lot more of it percentage wise  make it to the poor than what the government takes.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/26/salvation-army-theft_n_2193591.html
Well good Bob you found a bad apple in the barrel, Now how about prosecuting the insider trading congress that makes millions by their frickin schemes. How about Chase bank making millions off the handling of EBT cards....Give me a common crook any day.

Guest


Guest

I grew up poor. My family is still POOR and Im barely making it, bt rich compared to most in my family. I dont need to read a letter by another poor person to make me have compassion. I already have it weather or not you beleive it or not.

as poor as I am I contribute HEAVILY to charities and to all peoples around me, yes especially my family.

I hope you do the same. Its easy to talk the talk, it takes sacrafice to walk the walk. Smile 

Happy Thanksgiving. I love you 

Nekochan

Nekochan

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xucsb2_bill-anderson-performs-po-folks_music

I could say that I grew up poor but "poor" is relative.  We always had food on the table and a roof over our heads.   That is "rich" for many people in the world. 

My mother, though, she could have told you about being "poor".  My mother would have told you about the time she lived in a chicken coop in Paris, Texas and about the time she lived in a paper house in Panama City, FL.   She could have told you about going door to door as a child, peddling tators, and people slamming the door in her face.  She could have told you a lot of things about being poor.  My dad could have too.

Guest


Guest

I grew up rich. Neglected... but never a thght about food or shelter. No allowance... no free money except lunch money. I bought my first car... I moved out at sixteen... I didn't talk to any family member for almost four years. No support. What's the point?

Guest


Guest

Nekochan wrote:https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xucsb2_bill-anderson-performs-po-folks_music

I could say that I grew up poor but "poor" is relative.  We always had food on the table and a roof over our heads.   That is "rich" for many people in the world. 

My mother, though, she could have told you about being "poor".  My mother would have told you about the time she lived in a chicken coop in Paris, Texas and about the time she lived in a paper house in Panama City, FL.   She could have told you about going door to door as a child, peddling tators, and people slamming the door in her face.  She could have told you a lot of things about being poor.  My dad could have too.
yes, our generation of poor is certainly better than their generation poor. just like the poor now don't seem as poor as we were at that time.

but to cut this whole thing short from my end, I know everybody does not have what it takes intelligence wise to be a middle wage worker. But many do have what it takes to be a honorable working person and chose not to. they do it because they can still survive well enough to their low standards without having to put forth any effort. I see it, we all see it.

I believe in helping the few who certainly fall into the "youre really fucked up" category. But I do not like being taken advantage of and we are being taken advantage of.

we don't as a country espouse the virtues of being self reliant much anymore, we preach gov dependency as savior. we removed dire consequences from making poor decisions, hence more poor decisions.

MANY people in this country do not have self pride or even pride in anything anymore. its all about who you can fuck over, step on and screw out of a dollar. lie cheat and steal the new American way.

And then I see those who claim to be compassionate. But really they are the types that claim it but don't do a damn thing with it. These people do not contribute to charity, help a friend, help a stranger, help a struggling family member. all in the name of well, im not doing that great myself because they wanted to make sure they had enough to buy that new flat screen tv or season tickets. I see it all the time, even in my own family I hate to say.

I encourage those here who go on and on about how us conservatives are so evil to the poor people for pointing out food stamp usage etc to open up THEIR wallets this year and find out what the real glory of giving is. because giving is a gift for the giver. That is if your heart is in the right place. Smile 

Nekochan

Nekochan

I also wonder what the point is.  
I will say one thing--this woman in the article says that she will always be poor and with her thinking that way--she will always be poor.   I don't know why she's bothering with going to classes if she doesn't think she can improve her living standard.

Guest


Guest

I just left a job where the majority of the people were minimum wage workers who could barely pay rent and put food on the table. I saw them everyday doing physical hard labor for that money in hot dirty conditions while I sat in an air conditioned office coming and going as I pleased. And yes I felt guilty a lot. Granted many made poor choices but faced w/ what they knew and how they were raised they didn't have many options. Being poor is a culture and very difficult to get out of if you have no help. Some of them didn't know any other life and some of them weren't smart enough to figure it out. Good looking or smart people manage to get out of poverty but the rest are stuck. If you want to do something for the poor do anything but give to organized charities. Little money go to these people and most of it goes to the fatcats who run it. The charity I worked for had upper management drawing huge salaries,driving new cars w/ iphones and expense accounts. They had inflated 401K's and special executive perks all the backs of the minimum wage workers who did it all. I will never give a dime in my life ever again to any of these charities.

Nekochan

Nekochan

Chrissy wrote:
Nekochan wrote:https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xucsb2_bill-anderson-performs-po-folks_music

I could say that I grew up poor but "poor" is relative.  We always had food on the table and a roof over our heads.   That is "rich" for many people in the world. 

My mother, though, she could have told you about being "poor".  My mother would have told you about the time she lived in a chicken coop in Paris, Texas and about the time she lived in a paper house in Panama City, FL.   She could have told you about going door to door as a child, peddling tators, and people slamming the door in her face.  She could have told you a lot of things about being poor.  My dad could have too.
yes, our generation of poor is certainly better than their generation poor. just like the poor now don't seem as poor as we were at that time.

but to cut this whole thing short from my end, I know everybody does not have what it takes intelligence wise to be a middle wage worker. But many do have what it takes to be a honorable working person and chose not to. they do it because they can still survive well enough to their low standards without having to put forth any effort. I see it, we all see it.

I believe in helping the few who certainly fall into the "youre really fucked up" category. But I do not like being taken advantage of and we are being taken advantage of.

we don't as a country espouse the virtues of being self reliant much anymore, we preach gov dependency as savior. we removed dire consequences from making poor decisions, hence more poor decisions.

MANY people in this country do not have self pride or even pride in anything anymore. its all about who you can fuck over, step on and screw out of a dollar. lie cheat and steal the new American way.

And then I see those who claim to be compassionate. But really they are the types that claim it but don't do a damn thing with it. These people do not contribute to charity, help a friend, help a stranger, help a struggling family member. all in the name of well, im not doing that great myself because they wanted to make sure they had enough to buy that new flat screen tv or season tickets. I see it all the time, even in my own family I hate to say.

I encourage those here who go on and on about how us conservatives are so evil to the poor people for pointing out food stamp usage etc to open up THEIR wallets this year and find out what the real glory of giving is. because giving is a gift for the giver.  That is if your heart is in the right place. Smile 
Good points.

Guest


Guest

PkrBum wrote:I grew up rich. Neglected... but never a thght about food or shelter. No allowance... no free money except lunch money. I bought my first car... I moved out at sixteen... I didn't talk to any family member for almost four years.  No support. What's the point?
sals point as he says is that we need to have "empathy".

meaning as you said before. we should be happy the GOV steals our money to give to others because he thinks we are incapable of being charitable. I think he is incapable of being charitable unless its with other peoples money.

cool1

cool1

I look at it this way --You have food your rich--Smile  If you can pay your bills your rich --Laughing

I grew up in foster homes some nice some mean but I had food and a roof that made me feel rich Smile

Guest


Guest

I did learn a few things. Nothing is free. If you want something you earn it. Hard work pays. Bad ideas fail.

My dad died with just enough money in his account to pay for the handling of his effects... maybe that's how it is.

stormwatch89

stormwatch89

I'd just like to be able to decide for myself who I help.

Dam, there I go again with that insufferable free choice thinking.Mad Mad 





Nekochan

Nekochan

Chrissy wrote:
PkrBum wrote:I grew up rich. Neglected... but never a thght about food or shelter. No allowance... no free money except lunch money. I bought my first car... I moved out at sixteen... I didn't talk to any family member for almost four years.  No support. What's the point?
sals point as he says is that we need to have "empathy".

meaning as you said before. we should be happy the GOV steals our money to give to others because he thinks we are incapable of being charitable. I think he is incapable of being charitable unless its with other peoples money.
The woman is almost certainly getting grants for school.  OK.  I am not against all grants and help for higher education, although I think these kind of programs have helped escalate the price of college.  But I do believe that any American who is serious about continuing their education should be able to do so.   And that almost any American who truly wants to continue their education will accomplish that goal if they put their mind to it.   It's not always easy... and it shouldn't be.

But this woman is saying that she'll always be poor.  What's the damn point of giving her financial aid if she intends to always be poor?

Guest


Guest

Why do you think these programs escalate the price of college?

Guest


Guest

Nekochan wrote:
Chrissy wrote:
PkrBum wrote:I grew up rich. Neglected... but never a thght about food or shelter. No allowance... no free money except lunch money. I bought my first car... I moved out at sixteen... I didn't talk to any family member for almost four years.  No support. What's the point?
sals point as he says is that we need to have "empathy".

meaning as you said before. we should be happy the GOV steals our money to give to others because he thinks we are incapable of being charitable. I think he is incapable of being charitable unless its with other peoples money.
The woman is almost certainly getting grants for school.  OK.  I am not against all grants and help for higher education, although I think these kind of programs have helped escalate the price of college.  But I do believe that any American who is serious about continuing their education should be able to do so.   And that almost any American who truly wants to continue their education will accomplish that goal if they put their mind to it.   It's not always easy... and it shouldn't be.

But this woman is saying that she'll always be poor.  What's the damn point of giving her financial aid if she intends to always be poor?
That's what I mean, her drive, her pride has been driven out of her. Its a very hard thing to overcome. When you look around at society you can hear it and see what I mean. You will even hear young people go, oh whats the point ill just live off welfare. Ive heard it a million times.

People have this idea that life is supposed to be easy, its not. I have fought with my own children and other nieces and nephews over this.

when they know the easy safety net is there, its so much easier for them to give up when trying to do something as hard as going to college and struggling your way up.

Im sure people have a different point of view than me, but this is just what I see, so I can only speak from what I deal with and see occurring.

I don't know what the answer is, but all reason says that at some point these virtues will have to be re-installed into our society and its going to come as a big cruel looking rude awakening.

Guest


Guest

I don't know about the life supposed to be hard stuff. That's not the way it is for everyone. It more of the circumstances of your birth. Life is not hard for the royals and never will be even though they have the same color blood as we do.

Nekochan

Nekochan

Dreamsglore wrote:I don't know about the life supposed to be hard stuff. That's not the way it is for everyone. It more of the circumstances of your birth. Life is not hard for the royals and never will be even though they have the same color blood as we do.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-22/college-costs-will-keep-rising-under-obama-plan.html

I don't think that life is supposed to be all hard but I do think if everything comes too easy and is just handed out easily and freely, it's not always appreciated.

Nekochan

Nekochan

Chrissy wrote:
Nekochan wrote:
Chrissy wrote:
PkrBum wrote:I grew up rich. Neglected... but never a thght about food or shelter. No allowance... no free money except lunch money. I bought my first car... I moved out at sixteen... I didn't talk to any family member for almost four years.  No support. What's the point?
sals point as he says is that we need to have "empathy".

meaning as you said before. we should be happy the GOV steals our money to give to others because he thinks we are incapable of being charitable. I think he is incapable of being charitable unless its with other peoples money.
The woman is almost certainly getting grants for school.  OK.  I am not against all grants and help for higher education, although I think these kind of programs have helped escalate the price of college.  But I do believe that any American who is serious about continuing their education should be able to do so.   And that almost any American who truly wants to continue their education will accomplish that goal if they put their mind to it.   It's not always easy... and it shouldn't be.

But this woman is saying that she'll always be poor.  What's the damn point of giving her financial aid if she intends to always be poor?
That's what I mean, her drive, her pride has been driven out of her. Its a very hard thing to overcome. When you look around at society you can hear it and see what I mean. You will even hear young people go, oh whats the point ill just live off welfare. Ive heard it a million times.

People have this idea that life is supposed to be easy, its not. I have fought with my own children and other nieces and nephews over this.

when they know the easy safety net is there, its so much easier for them to give up when trying to do something as hard as going to college and struggling your way up.

Im sure people have a different point of view than me, but this is just what I see, so I can only speak from what I deal with and see occurring.

I don't know what the answer is, but all reason says that at some point these virtues will have to be re-installed into our society and its going to come as a big cruel looking rude awakening.
It's very difficult to see your kids struggle.  

But there is a difference between helping your kids out when they're young and starting out vs. financially supporting them into their 30s and even 40s.   I would not even want my kids to depend on us like that.  Actually, I think some parents "help" their grown kids financially because they like the control it gives them over their kids.  It's an unhealthy relationship, in my opinion.

knothead

knothead

I was raised a poor black child and just didn't feel like I fit into the family . . . I had no sense of rhythm whatsoever!

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