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Ron Paul : Healthcare, Freemarket or Socialism

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2seaoat
TEOTWAWKI
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TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

http://the-free-foundation.org/tst8-26-2013.html


Some will say it is unrealistic to advocate replacing Obamacare with a pure free-market system, but in fact it is unrealistic to expect anything less than a true free-market to provide quality health care for Americans at all income levels. Continuing on the “middle of the road” in health care by mixing free-markets with government spending and regulations will only continue to take us on the road to socialized health care.

2seaoat



Who is Ron Paul, and was he really ever relevant?

TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

He is the closest we have ever had to a founding father in our time.. and you are irrelevant if anyone is.



Last edited by TEOTWAWKI on 8/25/2013, 6:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

Guest


Guest

Giving in to try a chiropractor a few years ago has changed my life... I didn't even realize how much pain I carried around until it was gone. I know I've avoided one surgery... probably two... and my quality of life has certainly improved in that I can still run around and be active. I pay him a reasonable fee each time he treats me... radical I know. Neither he not any doctor can preform miracles... yet. It's a service... they have a skill... there is a fair market cost... although we have very little idea what that might be because of the system that was created... deliberately... surreptitiously... gradually.

The free market has had negligible effects since the first union risk pools... and next to no effect since fdr in the 30's.

Anybody that can't see the govt directing this (granted in collusion w monied interests) is simply avoiding the obvious.

What kind of sense would it make to turn over to the govt a fifth of our economy considering their track record?

Unbelievable.

TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

The only man I call Doctor and mean it is my Chiro, he works wonders.

2seaoat



The only man I call Doctor and mean it is my Chiro, he works wonders.


This explains a great deal.

TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

2seaoat wrote:

This explains a great deal.
Sorry brudda the proof is in the puddin...I take no medicine and can outrun my sons...any day and they are in pretty good shape. My way works well for me..so keep your bullshit system of keeping you just enough alive to keep you paying for the next breath.

TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

http://www.natural-health-information-centre.com/modern-medicine.html

It is a sad fact that virtually 100% of ALL medical education (both under-graduate and post-graduate) is paid for either directly or indirectly by the pharmaceutical industry. As such, the industry can control the educational agenda and our doctors are now taught little except how to control the symptoms of disease, preferably with long-term drug use. It is not the Doctors themselves that are at fault, but the pharmaceutical marketing system that trains them.

Now lets think about what that means.

EVERY Doctor, regardless of his / her own convictions, is taught that the way to treat disease is to use drugs, often without even considering the underlying causes of the disease.

TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

Dr Weston A Price, who proved beyond all doubt that the chronic diseases we have seen emerge in the 20th century are largely caused by our increasingly poor nutrition, and that in 26 separate "primitive" societies, these diseases DO NOT EXIST - until you give them a Western diet! He was IGNORED by modern medicine.

Guest


Guest

If we really wanted to save money we should mandate health. I have many progressive ways we could do that.

Floridatexan

Floridatexan

What a charming thread.

TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

Floridatexan wrote:What a charming thread.  

Glad you like it perhaps some flowers and some lavender tea

http://www.herbs2000.com/herbs/herbs_lavender.htm

TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

No country has a higher life expectancy than Monaco -- and it's not even close.

The average life expectancy in the tiny European principality is 89.73 years, according to the CIA World Factbook. That's a full five years more than Macau, which was second on the list at 84.41.

It's also 10 years more than the United States, which comes in at No. 49 with an average life expectancy of 78.37. The world average is 67.07.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

TEOTWAWKI wrote: No country has a higher life expectancy than Monaco -- and it's not even close.

The average life expectancy in the tiny European principality is 89.73 years, according to the CIA World Factbook. That's a full five years more than Macau, which was second on the list at 84.41.

It's also 10 years more than the United States, which comes in at No. 49 with an average life expectancy of 78.37. The world average is 67.07.
And it does it with a total health expenditure that is 4.2% of GDP. As opposed to our country which spends 17.6% of GDP.

TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

Bob wrote:
TEOTWAWKI wrote: No country has a higher life expectancy than Monaco -- and it's not even close.

The average life expectancy in the tiny European principality is 89.73 years, according to the CIA World Factbook. That's a full five years more than Macau, which was second on the list at 84.41.

It's also 10 years more than the United States, which comes in at No. 49 with an average life expectancy of 78.37. The world average is 67.07.
And it does it with a total health expenditure that is 4.2% of GDP.  As opposed to our country which spends 17.6% of GDP.
Bob now if we could just send someone down there, John Stossell or someone to find out how, we might be on to something...

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

TEOTWAWKI wrote:
Bob wrote:
And it does it with a total health expenditure that is 4.2% of GDP.  As opposed to our country which spends 17.6% of GDP.
Bob now if we could just send someone down there, John Stossell or someone to find out how, we might be on to something...
While he's at it get him to take a side trip to Thailand and Singapore to find out how they can do high quality medical procedures on Americans at a cost so low compared to our country that people can pay for the airfare from here and stay in lavish hotels and hospitals there and it costs less than going to the local medical providers here.
If I need another lymph node biopsy before Medicare I'll be getting a passport too.

TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

Bob wrote:
TEOTWAWKI wrote:
Bob wrote:
And it does it with a total health expenditure that is 4.2% of GDP.  As opposed to our country which spends 17.6% of GDP.
Bob now if we could just send someone down there, John Stossell or someone to find out how, we might be on to something...
While he's at it get him to take a side trip to Thailand and Singapore to find out how they can do high quality medical procedures on Americans at a cost so low compared to our country that people can pay for the airfare from here and stay in lavish hotels and hospitals there and it costs less than going to the local medical providers here.
If I need another lymph node biopsy before Medicare I'll be getting a passport too.
I support you in that endeavor 100 %.. smart move.

ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

TEOTWAWKI wrote:Dr Weston A Price, who proved beyond all doubt that the chronic diseases we have seen emerge in the 20th century are largely caused by our increasingly poor nutrition, and that in 26 separate "primitive" societies, these diseases DO NOT EXIST - until you give them a Western diet!  He was IGNORED by modern medicine.
It all started when sugar became cheap and plentiful to the European society beginning in the 1500s. Before that time, the only fructose humans consumed was naturally from fruit. The introduction of table sugar from cane and beets changed all of that.

http://www.best-electric-barbecue-grills.com

TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

ZVUGKTUBM wrote:
TEOTWAWKI wrote:Dr Weston A Price, who proved beyond all doubt that the chronic diseases we have seen emerge in the 20th century are largely caused by our increasingly poor nutrition, and that in 26 separate "primitive" societies, these diseases DO NOT EXIST - until you give them a Western diet!  He was IGNORED by modern medicine.
It all started when sugar became cheap and plentiful to the European society beginning in the 1500s. Before that time, the only fructose humans consumed was naturally from fruit. The introduction of table sugar from cane and beets changed all of that.
Fact is harmful bacteria in the gut thrive on that type of sugar and over whelm the good bacteria ...your gut is 70% of your immune system. Not to mention tumors thrive in a high glucose body...shift to a ketone diet and the tumors will croak...starve.

Guest


Guest

A little ot... but I didn't want to start a new thread.

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/19/beers-implicated-in-emergency-room-visits/

Floridatexan

Floridatexan

TEOTWAWKI wrote:
Bob wrote:
TEOTWAWKI wrote: No country has a higher life expectancy than Monaco -- and it's not even close.

The average life expectancy in the tiny European principality is 89.73 years, according to the CIA World Factbook. That's a full five years more than Macau, which was second on the list at 84.41.

It's also 10 years more than the United States, which comes in at No. 49 with an average life expectancy of 78.37. The world average is 67.07.
And it does it with a total health expenditure that is 4.2% of GDP.  As opposed to our country which spends 17.6% of GDP.
Bob now if we could just send someone down there, John Stossell or someone to find out how, we might be on to something...
Anthony Bourdain

Wordslinger

Wordslinger

Free market medicine doesn't work -- it's what we had prior to Obamacare. Free Market medicine makes the medical insurer the medical decider. The whole concept is corrupt: no one needs a middle man between the patient and doctor who makes a profit from people's illness.

Medical insurers provide zero service to medical patients or doctors -- but, thanks to a government that is easily sold to the highest bidder, we are now facing ever increasing medical costs, and a descending quality of medical care. Face it, your insurer makes his biggest profit when you are denied preventive treatment, and when you become seriously ill, that same insurer works to deny you the treatment you may or must need to survive. Medical insurance companies and drug companies have steadily increased the costs of American medicine, and, at the same time, the numbers of people with no access have also increased.

The answer, of course, is real socialized medicine -- the same kind they have in Denmark and Sweden and Norway and Germany. You may pay more in taxes, but when you deduct all medical costs, you come out way ahead. And, despite the ostriches who plague the internet, try and talk a Swede or Norwegian, or a Dane out of their healthcare system!

Obamacare won't work because the only people who really profit from it are the drug companies and insurance companies. Doctors don't like it because the system dictates how they should treat a patient by providing "acceptable" parameters without any consideration whatsoever of the patient's particular needs.

The far right wants to go back to what we had before Medicare -- essentially a system wherein the broad majority of the American public would not be able to afford medical care of any type.

The results of such a system would be catastrophic to both the public and the medical industry. Emergency treatment costs everyone involved considerably more than preventive care.

The same "free market" advocates are opposed to NAFTA and other governmental actions that have destroyed our manufacturing base.

And these same folk, who appear so passionately concerned with ending abortion (and apparently birth control as well), don't consider the costs of unnecessary wars as a negative economic factor, and haven't felt stirred enough to demonstrate against a criminally neglectful Veterans Administration healthcare system.

And then you have all the "global warming" is hokum folks -- who, when seriously queried confess that it's "in" for conservatives to protest global warming, even when they privately believe it's real.

Ultimately, regarding medical care in the U.S., we either graduate to a completely "free market" -- read run for profit by drug companies and medical insurers -- or a real single-payer healthcare system.

One that's as half-assed as Obama care will work just as well as the President's foreign and economic policies -- all of which are designed to benefit Wall Street and the Military Industrial Complex.

Lucky us!!






TEOTWAWKI wrote:http://www.natural-health-information-centre.com/modern-medicine.html

It is a sad fact that virtually 100% of ALL medical education (both under-graduate and post-graduate) is paid for either directly or indirectly by the pharmaceutical industry.  As such, the industry can control the educational agenda and our doctors are now taught little except how to control the symptoms of disease, preferably with long-term drug use.  It is not the Doctors themselves that are at fault, but the pharmaceutical marketing system that trains them.

Now lets think about what that means.

EVERY Doctor, regardless of his / her own convictions, is taught that the way to treat disease is to use drugs, often without even considering the underlying causes of the disease.

Guest


Guest

Seriously Wordslinger... does this look like a free market to you? This doesn't really include other steps like the first union risk pools... the precursors to the hated insurance corps. I would say that many are simply misdirected by revision and propaganda... but that includes ignoring history... which can't be excused.

Pivotal moments in American health care history:

--1798: The Act for the Relief of Sick and Disabled Seamen in 1798 marks the beginning of federal involvement in health care.

--1854: President Franklin Pierce vetoes a national mental health bill on the basis that it would be unconstitutional to regard health as anything but a private matter in which government should not become involved.

--1912: Former President Theodore Roosevelt campaigns as the Progressive Party candidate on a platform calling for a single national health service.

--1920: The Snyder Act of 1920 is the first federal legislation to deal with health care for Native Americans, setting up the beginnings of what became the Indian Health Service.

--1921: The Maternity and Infancy Act of 1921 (Sheppard-Towner Act) provides grants to states to plan maternal and child health services. The legislation serves as a prototype for federal grants-in-aid to the states in the area of health.

--1924: The Veterans Act of 1924 codifies and extends federal responsibilities for health care services to veterans, who receive aid if they are injured in the line of service.

--1932: The Committee on the Costs of Medical Care report is published and raises concerns about the costs of health care and the number of people lacking medical services.

--1935: The Social Security Act, providing pensions and other benefits to the elderly, is signed into law by President Franklin Delano Roosevelt. National health insurance is left out of the final Social Security bill because of the opposition of organized medicine and its allies.

--1937: The Technical Committee on Medical Care, a group of federal agency representatives, is convened to advance health care reform.

--1938: A national health Conference proposes federal aid to the states to expand public health, maternal and children's services and hospital facilities.

--1939: The Wagner National Health Act of 1939, FDR's second push for national health insurance, fails as Southern Democrats align with Republicans to oppose government expansion.

--1943: The National War Labor Board declares employer contributions for health insurance to be tax free, which encourages companies to offer health-insurance packages to attract workers.

--1943: The Wagner-Murray-Dingell bill is introduced, calling for broad additions to the Social Security Act, including health insurance measures. The bill never came to a vote in Congress. A revised version was introduced in May 1945 but was never acted upon.

--1945: President Harry Truman recommends a national health insurance program during a special address to Congress. The McCarran-Fergurson Act of 1945 exempts the insurance industry from federal antitrust legislation

--1946: The National Health Policy Hospital Survey and Construction Act of 1946 provides grants to states to inventory and survey existing hospital and public health care facilities in each state and to plan for new ones.

--1948: Truman's National Health Insurance Initiative fails after the American Medical Association criticizes it, and some Republicans compare it to communism.

--1951: Truman creates, by executive order, the President's Commission on the Health Needs of the Nation. The commission was to determine the nation's health requirements, both immediate and long-term, and to recommend courses of action to meet those needs.

--1952: Republican presidential candidate Dwight D. Eisenhower campaigns against national health insurance.

--1954: President Dwight Eisenhower, with the objective of enabling private insurance companies to broaden their coverage, proposes a plan of federal reinsurance for any private company as protection against heavy losses resulting from health insurance. After the first five years, the program would become self-financing with money derived from premiums paid by the insurance companies. The House soundly rejects the plan. Eisenhower calls a conference to try to salvage it and is told the Senate can't fit the plan into its agenda.

--1959: A bill is introduced by Rep. Aime J. Forand, D-R.I., to provide hospital, surgical and nursing home benefits for old-age and survivors insurance beneficiaries using the Social Security administrative mechanism. The program is to be financed by an increase in the Social Security tax. The bill fails.

--1960: Legislation is enacted establishing limited medical assistance for the aged through the Social Security program. The act also provides aid to the states to help "medically indigent" people 65 or older. Participation by states is optional; 25 take part.

--1962: President John F. Kennedy renews his 1961 request that the old-age, survivors and disability provisions of the Social Security Act be amended to provide health insurance protection for the aged.

--1965: President Lyndon B. Johnson signs into law the landmark federal health insurance programs known as Medicare and Medicaid.

--1971: Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, D-Mass., offers his national health insurance plan. The "Health Security Act" calls for a universal single-player plan to be financed through payroll taxes. President Richard Nixon later advances his own version of a bill, the National Health Insurance Partnership Act. It would preserve private insurance but require businesses to provide coverage to employees or make payments to a government-run fund. It also endorses the concept of health maintenance organizations. The bill fails.

--1973: Legislation is enacted to encourage development of health maintenance organizations.

--1974: Nixon proposes his Comprehensive Health Insurance Plan calling for universal coverage, voluntary employer participation and a separate program for the working poor and the unemployed, replacing Medicaid. Organized labor lobbied successfully to kill the plan, hoping get a better deal after the next elections. That didn't happen.

--1977: The Health Care Financing Administration is created to manage Medicare and Medicaid separately from the Social Security Administration.

--1979: Sen. Kennedy proposes that private insurance plans compete for customers who would receive a card to use for hospital and physician's care. Employers would bear the bulk of the cost for their workers, with the government picking up costs for the poor. President Jimmy Carter's plan, released a month later, proposes that businesses provide a minimum package of benefits, that public coverage for the poor and aged be expanded and that a new public corporation created to sell coverage to everyone else. Neither proposal makes it through Congress.

--1985: The Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1985 (COBRA), signed into law by President Ronald Reagan, mandates an insurance program giving some employees the ability to continue health insurance coverage from their workplace after leaving the job. In addition, hospice care is made a permanent part of Medicare and extended to states for Medicaid.

--1988: The Medicare Catastrophic Coverage Act provides the largest expansion of benefits since the creation of the program and increases premiums. But act causes dissension, in part because long-term services are not covered and more affluent beneficiaries don't need the expanded coverage. The act is repealed before provisions go into effect. The McKinney Act is signed into law, providing health care to the homeless.

--1990: The Americans with Disabilities Act provides a broad range of protections for the disabled.

--1993: President Bill Clinton proposes the most ambitious reworking of the health care system since Medicare and Medicaid, aiming squarely for universal coverage. But he cannot persuade fellow Democrats in control of Congress to adopt it. The proposals drew strong opposition from the health care industry and employers. The Childhood Immunization Act supports the provision of vaccines for children eligible for Medicaid, children without health insurance, and Native American children.

--1996: The Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act improves continuity of health insurance coverage in group and individual markets for people who lose their job. The act also promotes medical savings accounts and improves access to long-term care services and coverage.

--1997: The State Children's Health Insurance Program is established to help provide medical care to children in low-income families that are not poor enough to qualify for Medicaid.

--2003: President George W. Bush signs a law adding prescription drugs to Medicare.

--Jan. 19, 2010: Republican Scott Brown's upset in the Massachusetts Senate seat opened by Sen. Kennedy's death deprives Democrats of the 60 votes needed to move legislation forward. The effort to reconcile health overhaul bills passed by the House and Senate is stalled.

--March 2010: Democratic leaders in Congress employ parliamentary maneuvers in hopes of enabling passage of Obama's plan with a simple majority in the Senate. A showdown vote is set in the House for Sunday.

Hopefully everyone remembers how this ended... backroom deals, congressional bribes, forced uninformed votes... etc.

TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

 Ron Paul : Healthcare, Freemarket or Socialism Bs10

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