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Pensacola Discussion Forum » Politics » Mitt is right. We need to expand our navy.

Mitt is right. We need to expand our navy.

+7
Sal
Margin Call
ZVUGKTUBM
othershoe1030
2seaoat
Nekochan
boards of FL
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Guest


Guest

http://www.axiomatica.org/revealing-the-matrix/military-industrial-complex

It's all right here.. They want the lemmings to believe they can't get along without them.. They're bleeding the taxpayers dry and "Most" of them are Too Stupid to see it.. I've heard it all, now we need our military so other countries can outsource us..Fuck'em, if they want our services we should charge them 100%+ the cost..

ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

These are classic ‘Big Government’ arguments. The Left says the Navy is too big, and the Right says the Navy is not big enough. The Left wants to take money from that side of Big Government and use it toward their social programs (welfare arguments), and the Right wants to take money from the Left’s side of Big Government and use it to support their warfare arguments. Both sides give compelling reasons why their arguments are more valid. Neither side is willing to bend. Meanwhile, the national debt continues to skyrocket, and both sides blame the other side for the continuing annual deficits. It is a never ending cycle.

I think ultimately, the debt will eventually dictate smaller everything on both sides of Big Government. One thing is for certain—neither Romney nor Obama will do one thing to lower the deficit by a penny, and any talk about balancing the budget, etc. is just a bunch of empty rhetoric.



Last edited by ZVUGKTUBM on 10/24/2012, 12:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Nekochan

Nekochan

Well, part of the answer may be to insist that our allies in Asia and Europe take a larger share of the burden and expense of protecting all of our interests. Right now, Japan is very worried about increasing threats from China and N. Korea but they only have a Self Defense Force and they rely on the US to help them with security in that part of the world. Granted, the Japanese government does pay for a LOT of the cost of us being there but it still costs a lot of money to keep a carrier group funded.

But like nochain said--do we rely on other countries to take up the slack? What other country is able or willing to do this over the next 25+ years? Oh, that would maybe be-- China?

ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

Lurch wrote:http://www.axiomatica.org/revealing-the-matrix/military-industrial-complex

It's all right here.. They want the lemmings to believe they can't get along without them.. They're bleeding the taxpayers dry and "Most" of them are Too Stupid to see it.. I've heard it all, now we need our military so other countries can outsource us..Fuck'em, if they want our services we should charge them 100%+ the cost..

Yeah...Seaoat cracked me up with his post.....

http://www.best-electric-barbecue-grills.com

boards of FL

boards of FL

Nekochan wrote:About military spending, it should always be a balance of how to spend the money the best way to get the biggest bang for the buck.

Well in that case, let's vote for the guy who will get more stuff for the navy! Infrastructure is crumbling, we have these huge baby boomer liabilities, who cares. More navy stuff!

Mitt is right. We need to expand our navy. - Page 2 XHPWZ


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Nekochan

Nekochan

Maybe if we had a group like the Base Closure Committee that would (supposedly) be non-partisan and not be owing their souls to any special interest to go through all of these DOD programs and keep the good and throw out the bad...

Guest


Guest

boards of FL wrote:
Nekochan wrote:About military spending, it should always be a balance of how to spend the money the best way to get the biggest bang for the buck.

Well in that case, let's vote for the guy who will get more stuff for the navy! Infrastructure is crumbling, we have these huge baby boomer liabilities, who cares. More navy stuff!


While we're at it why doesn't the U.S. just become a closed nation? Isolationism will be great for folks like you - move into a commune and share mother earth with bears, snakes, and gators. Yep, that's the ticket. All the money spent on the "MIC" can then be used for more social welfare programs. Except the tax revenue loss from all of the displaced "MIC" employees won't be available, in fact those millions of workers would have to be added to the social welfare rolls. But that's no problem either, you can just raise taxes on the rich. Oh wait, that wont work either since without trade there is no market. What a conundrum but I am sure you have the perfect solution hidden up your left sleeve.

Or do you just like to complain without offering any solutions?

Nekochan

Nekochan

boards of FL wrote:
Nekochan wrote:About military spending, it should always be a balance of how to spend the money the best way to get the biggest bang for the buck.

Well in that case, let's vote for the guy who will get more stuff for the navy! Infrastructure is crumbling, we have these huge baby boomer liabilities, who cares. More navy stuff!

Mitt is right. We need to expand our navy. - Page 2 XHPWZ


There is a saying in the Navy that when the Navy asks for money, it first asks for ships and planes. It gets some of what it asks for. Secondly, it asks for support structures for the troops such as housing and MWR type services. Then it's told-- sorry, no way, there is no money for that stuff. But when the Air Force asks for money, it first asks for housing and MWR type services and it gets some of those things. When it gets those things it then says-- but we need planes and hangars --and of course the AF needs planes and hangars, so they get what they ask for...
And anyone who's spent time on AF and Navy bases knows what I'm talking about!
Seriously though--the navy requires ships and planes...it is not cheap.

Margin Call

Margin Call

Nekochan wrote:The US Navy keeps the world's shipping lines clear for the US and for all of those countries.

Precisely...that's why the focus should be not on expanding the Navy before expanding the amount of goods shipped OUT of this country.

ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

Nekochan wrote:Maybe if we had a group like the Base Closure Committee that would (supposedly) be non-partisan and not be owing their souls to any special interest to go through all of these DOD programs and keep the good and throw out the bad...

One of the first things to go would be consolidation of Army/Navy helicopter training at Fort Rucker, AL. That threat has been alive since before I got assigned to HT-8 in 1981. Jeff Miller will throw out the old canard about how they train differently and must be kept separate. It's total BS. The Air force can do joint training with the Navy at North Whiting Field, but the Navy can't do joint training with the Army up in Alabama. They forget that during the Vietnam War, some Marine Corps helicopter pilots did all of their training at Fort Rucker because the Navy could not churn pilots out fast enough.

Navy and Marine Corps helicopter pilots could easily be trained in Alabama, and do FCLPs and ship-board landings later, when assigned to the fleet.

I guarantee you, if Miller lost this fight, it would end his congressional career.

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boards of FL

boards of FL

nochain wrote:While we're at it why doesn't the U.S. just become a closed nation? Isolationism will be great for folks like you - move into a commune and share mother earth with bears, snakes, and gators. Yep, that's the ticket. All the money spent on the "MIC" can then be used for more social welfare programs. Except the tax revenue loss from all of the displaced "MIC" employees won't be available, in fact those millions of workers would have to be added to the social welfare rolls. But that's no problem either, you can just raise taxes on the rich. Oh wait, that wont work either since without trade there is no market. What a conundrum but I am sure you have the perfect solution hidden up your left sleeve.

Congrats on managing to post all of this which has nothing to do with anything anyone has suggested in this thread. You are continuing a tradition of not being able to read and directly respond to that which you quote.


nochain wrote:Or do you just like to complain without offering any solutions?

Solution: Cut defense spending.


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Sal

Sal

The same people who think that Wall Street is over-regulated, the 1% is over-taxed, and 47% of Americans are parasitic moochers, insist on feeding the MIC.

Go figure.

Useful idiots one and all.

Nekochan

Nekochan

ZVUGKTUBM wrote:
Nekochan wrote:Maybe if we had a group like the Base Closure Committee that would (supposedly) be non-partisan and not be owing their souls to any special interest to go through all of these DOD programs and keep the good and throw out the bad...

One of the first things to go would be consolidation of Army/Navy helicopter training at Fort Rucker, AL. That threat has been alive since before I got assigned to HT-8 in 1981. Jeff Miller will throw out the old canard about how they train differently and must be kept separate. It's total BS. The Air force can do joint training with the Navy at North Whiting Field, but the Navy can't do joint training with the Army up in Alabama. They forget that during the Vietnam War, some Marine Corps helicopter pilots did all of their training at Fort Rucker because the Navy could not churn pilots out fast enough.

Navy and Marine Corps helicopter pilots could easily be trained in Alabama, and do FCLPs and ship-board landings later, when assigned to the fleet.

I guarantee you, if Miller lost this fight, it would end his congressional career.

My husband worked at Fort Rucker for a short time. It is a very nice base. I liked it there a lot. Hubby also said that Navy and Army helicopter training could be combined.

Nekochan

Nekochan

boards of FL wrote:
nochain wrote:While we're at it why doesn't the U.S. just become a closed nation? Isolationism will be great for folks like you - move into a commune and share mother earth with bears, snakes, and gators. Yep, that's the ticket. All the money spent on the "MIC" can then be used for more social welfare programs. Except the tax revenue loss from all of the displaced "MIC" employees won't be available, in fact those millions of workers would have to be added to the social welfare rolls. But that's no problem either, you can just raise taxes on the rich. Oh wait, that wont work either since without trade there is no market. What a conundrum but I am sure you have the perfect solution hidden up your left sleeve.

Congrats on managing to post all of this which has nothing to do with anything anyone has suggested in this thread. You are continuing a tradition of not being able to read and directly respond to that which you quote.


nochain wrote:Or do you just like to complain without offering any solutions?

Solution: Cut defense spending.

Absolutely cut defense spending. But don't start with ships and planes.

ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

Solution: Cut defense spending.

The national debt is going to dictate that it be cut. Unfortunately for those dreadful Baby Boomer liabilities you talked about (and I am a Baby Boomer), we are ultimately going to be shafted because of the national debt. It's a matter of time--we will know within 10 years.

A pair of authors I have followed said at that point, those who rely on government transfer payments (of any kind) will be given what amounts to IOUs. They will be authorizations for payment that will be partially funded here and there as money becomes available, with no guarantees.

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Guest


Guest

boards of FL wrote:
nochain wrote:W.

Congrats on managing to post all of this which has nothing to do with anything anyone has suggested in this thread. You are continuing a tradition of not being able to read and directly respond to that which you quote.


nochain wrote:Or do you just like to complain without offering any solutions?

Solution: Cut defense spending.

You can't be that dense, well maybe you are. I responded to everything but, even though you admitted not knowing about Navy matters, you ignored the information. Your solution is "cut defense spending". Where? I have suggested many times to eliminate the entire F-35 program. You offer nothing but simple comments. Your mind is so narrow that if compared to road a bicycle wouldn't fit on it. Poser.

Floridatexan

Floridatexan

nochain wrote:
Nekochan wrote:Well, that is true if you believe everything that Boards and Seaoat said...

Boards gratuitously threw in amphibious decks, those are not true carriers, and yes I have served on both types of platforms as a USN Surface Warfare Officer. Also I would tend to toss out the Chinese "carrier" - it will be YEARS before the Chinese have a viable carrier force. People fail to realize we are the only country that can project power over great distances given the capabilities of our Navy and Air Force. Since we have economic interests worldwide it is important to be able to protect those interests abroad. Why have we not been attacked (as in an organized fashion)? Because we have the capability to take the fight to a sea borne belligerent well before they could ship enough troops to our shores. If I were Boss for a Day I would (this is heresy) roll the Marines into the Army - it appears the time has long passed where a forced landing into a foreign country is a viable option. Addressing why the Navy needs to be larger, it would be difficult to explain to anyone who has not been on ships the training, maintenance, and personnel transfer cycles that should be maintained to get the maximum life out of a hull.

You have just perfectly described the concept of United States colonialism. Isn't that the reason our country was founded...to be free of domination by another colonial state? We are not the police of the world; we have become what we most feared. Time to scale back; time to nation-build in our own country, for our own citizens, not for the economic advancement of a small group of chickenhawk oligarchs and their overseas investments.

Guest


Guest

salinsky wrote:The same people who think that Wall Street is over-regulated, the 1% is over-taxed, and 47% of Americans are parasitic moochers, insist on feeding the MIC.

Go figure.

Useful idiots one and all.

And they don't mind giving welfare/aid to other countries either.. WTF..

Guest


Guest

Lurch wrote:
salinsky wrote:The same people who think that Wall Street is over-regulated, the 1% is over-taxed, and 47% of Americans are parasitic moochers, insist on feeding the MIC.

Go figure.

Useful idiots one and all.

And they don't mind giving welfare/aid to other countries either.. WTF..

I believe you would be hard pressed to find very many folks at all who approve of handing over money to corrupt foreign governments. Most of them would likely be brain-dead ultra-liberal idiots. The fact foreign welfare is so widespread is a perfect indicator that the elected idiots in D.C. could give a hoot about what the majority of people think.

ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

nochain wrote:
Lurch wrote:
salinsky wrote:The same people who think that Wall Street is over-regulated, the 1% is over-taxed, and 47% of Americans are parasitic moochers, insist on feeding the MIC.

Go figure.

Useful idiots one and all.

And they don't mind giving welfare/aid to other countries either.. WTF..

I believe you would be hard pressed to find very many folks at all who approve of handing over money to corrupt foreign governments. Most of them would likely be brain-dead ultra-liberal idiots. The fact foreign welfare is so widespread is a perfect indicator that the elected idiots in D.C. could give a hoot about what the majority of people think.

That is because they are beholden to Wall Street, big corporations, etc. I think we are just along for the ride, even when it goes off the track and over the cliff. We are all just chumps to the oligarchy. They get a kick out of watching us fight amongst each other over our elections, when they own and profit from both sides of the debate.

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knothead

knothead

Lurch wrote:http://www.axiomatica.org/revealing-the-matrix/military-industrial-complex

It's all right here.. They want the lemmings to believe they can't get along without them.. They're bleeding the taxpayers dry and "Most" of them are Too Stupid to see it.. I've heard it all, now we need our military so other countries can outsource us..Fuck'em, if they want our services we should charge them 100%+ the cost..

***************************************

Most sensible thing I've read in this discussion . . . . e.g., Iraq should be on the hook forever until they have repaid the hard costs of giving them their freedom. Same for Korea . . . . It is a fact, we cannot be the world's police but we should expect the recipients to pick up at least a portion of the tab.

Floridatexan

Floridatexan

knothead wrote:
Lurch wrote:http://www.axiomatica.org/revealing-the-matrix/military-industrial-complex

It's all right here.. They want the lemmings to believe they can't get along without them.. They're bleeding the taxpayers dry and "Most" of them are Too Stupid to see it.. I've heard it all, now we need our military so other countries can outsource us..Fuck'em, if they want our services we should charge them 100%+ the cost..

***************************************

Most sensible thing I've read in this discussion . . . . e.g., Iraq should be on the hook forever until they have repaid the hard costs of giving them their freedom. Same for Korea . . . . It is a fact, we cannot be the world's police but we should expect the recipients to pick up at least a portion of the tab.

Is that what we did in Iraq? Give them their freedom? I think they already paid a very high price. Remember, it wasn't going to cost much, in terms of what wars cost, to invade Iraq. All the neocons said so. I personally think Halliburton, KBR, Carlyle Group, and Blackwater, et al, should give back THEIR ill-gotten gains.

Markle

Markle

We have no clue as to the size of the Chinese military. We have no clue how many submarines they have today. We have discovered they have a massive, underground submarine base, accessible only underground and under water. So we have no idea how many they have or when they are in port or where else in the world. More than a year ago, we saw what appeared to be an underwater missile launch from 25 miles off the California coast for which our military had no explanation other than nothing to worry about.

Thanks to former Presidents Jimmy Carter and William Jefferson Clinton, Red China also controls the ports at both ends of the Panama Canal. The canal is in the midst of being greatly enlarged for larger ships. They also control the largest deep water port on the West Coast the Long Beach port, along with a huge and expanding deep water port in the Bahamas along with an airport their which is capable of servicing any aircraft in the world with 13,000 foot runways. They also have the largest standing army, the second largest container ship company all under the control of the Red Army.

Thanks to former President Clinton, China bought our most advanced rocket guidance systems and motors. That allowed them to leap frog ahead by decades in their ICBM program. We, on the other hand, have shut down our research dropping us decades BEHIND Russia and China. Their rockets now have the capability to knock our or satellites and they have another capable of knocking out our aircraft carriers.

China is now producing stealth bombers and fighters and Pakistan gave China access to our downed stealth helicopter from the Usama bin Laden assassination.

All being paid for from the interest we owe them.

As for Russia, they just recently ran some huge nuclear tests plus they still have nuclear weapons from the cold war. Then, of course, President Barack Hussein Obama sent him a message to be patient, that he (Obama) would have much more “FLEXIBILITY” after the election.

Russia also had a submarine cruising in the Gulf of Mexico for close to a month and we had no clue.

Yep, everyone is eager to sit naked in a circle with little drums singing Kumbaya.

Guest


Guest

I remember my grandmother saying 20 years ago that if the chinese started marching 5 abreast that the line would never stop.

Y'all may want to consider that at some point.

Nekochan

Nekochan

They have us outnumbered, for sure. We do not want to go to war with them!

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