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It's been a while since I posted here, but let's get right into it and talk about Bidenomics.

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boards of FL

boards of FL

GDP growth is currently at 5.2% - historically high. Unemployment (U3) is currently at 3.7% - historically low. The stock market is currently at an all time high - historically...record breaking. Pandemic-related (supply shock) inflation is now getting under control as a result of interest rate hikes from the central bank. Economists are now saying we will get a soft landing out of inflation as opposed to a recession. Here in FL there are 176 infrastructure projects queued up and backed by $8.1B in funding from Biden's historic infrastructure bill to build and repair roads, bridges, public transport, ports, airports, clean water, etc. This will ensure economic prosperity for the next several years during the building phase at the very least.

And yet if I talk to any of my republican voter friends, most tend to disregard all of the economic data mentioned above and instead declare - without any supporting facts or data - that we're actually in the worst economy in 50 years. So with that, I'm curious what republican voters here think about the economy?

Here are the facts one more time. 5.2% GDP. 3.7% unemployment. Record high stock market. Solid growth in output. Solid stability in the labor market. Solid value in investment. And as things like the Infrastructure bill and the CHIPs Act play out, there are solid economic prospects for the future for years to come.

I'm going to add in some historical jobs numbers as well, since we all know Joe Biden was also VP in the Obama administration. Quite literally all private sector job growth in the 21st century happened under democratic presidents. The numbers below are from BLS databases (B tables on seasonally adjusted private sector jobs).

Clinton - 2000 to 2001: 1.4M jobs created
W Bush - 2001 to 2009: 373k jobs lost
Obama - 2019 to 2017: 11.8M jobs created
Trump - 2017 to 2021: 2.1M jobs lost
Biden - 2021 to 2023: 12.8M jobs created

GDP expansion and the labor market are some of the most commonly cited data points used by economists to explain the economy. So there is the data for the 21st century.

Putting all of this together, what do republican/libertarian voters here make of all of this and Bidenomics? I'm interested in hearing about how you think the economy is doing today, and what data it is you're looking at that leads you to that conclusion. Also curious in what you have to say about the current state of GDP, the labor market, and the stock market. Also curious about what you think about jobs results in the 21st century.


GDP data: https://www.bea.gov/news/2023/gross...-corporate-profits-preliminary-estimate-third
Unemployment rate data: Employment Situation Summary - 2023 M11 Results
Historical jobs data: Establishment data series from the monthly B Tables : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

Floridatexan, Telstar, RealLindaL and zsomething like this post

2It's been a while since I posted here, but let's get right into it and talk about Bidenomics. Empty Good luck on this 12/25/2023, 2:35 am

RealLindaL



Boards, I doubt you'll ever get a reply from your targeted groups here. Your post just makes too much sense to be reasonably refuted. Thanks very much for posting this in any case!

Floridatexan, Telstar and zsomething like this post

zsomething



Republicans are hoping like hell that Trump will win so they can start giving him credit for all the great economic numbers he inherited... just like they did last time. If they can get a Republican in there, the exact same (or even lesser) economic trends that they were screaming were so horrrrrrrible will suddenly be the greatest numbers ever.

Trump inherited a booming economy from Obama. Everything Trump did actually slowed it down... not by a lot, because the economy was so strong and presidents don't actually have nearly as much effect on the economy as people think, but Trump's percentages were always a little lower than Obama's. Still trending good, but slower and smaller. It didn't matter -- Republicans still claimed that "Trump's" economy was just super-wonderful-and-great and Obama's was terrrrrible, despite Obama's actual numbers being higher. They also screamed about Obama's deficit while completely ignoring Trump's, which was a hell of a lot bigger.

And they're drooling over the prospect of doing this same trick with Biden, too.

Look, conservatives know their base are idiots. Let's just be blunt. They looked at 'em, saw how overwhelmingly religious they are, and said, "They believe all that crazy stuff, I bet we can get them to believe a bunch of other crazy stuff, too. Their logic-and-empirical-evidence processors are completely broken. They're trained to believe only what they want to believe and will not believe anything they don't want to believe, no matter how true it is. We can take advantage of that." And, man, they sure have. They can get mad at me for saying it, but privately, even they know it's true -- their base are dumbasses, waiting to be led. They're the flat-earthers, the QAnon goofs, the "JFK's still alive and Biden's a pedophile working out of a pizza parlor and Ukraine's full of Nazis while the January 6th 'tourists' weren't."

And it galls the hell out of them that the facts are that the country does provably better under Democrats. Red states also get worse results across the board than blue states do, and that bugs them, too. Truth is, they don't know how to govern, and they've given up on even trying -- all Republican senators and representatives are anymore are social media grandstanders, just saying dumbshit for likes. They don't care about actual policies because they don't understand them, anyway, and they know their base really doesn't. They'll do what they're told. Three dollars a gallon gas under a Democrat will be terrible and awful, while four dollars a gallon gas under a Republican will be low and cheap and a great accomplishment. It's just how their base is... tribal to the bone.

That's why Biden isn't getting a lot of credit for all this economic good news. And it IS all his own, because what he inherited from Trump was crap. Yeah, the pandemic derailed it, but Trump's mishandling of the pandemic was a big contributing factor to that, too. Inflation's still bad, and a lot of that is because Trump created shortages, so the price of things went up, and the people who produce those products figured out, "Hey, this is what people will pay!" and so they're not too inclined to bring the prices back down. Would you? If you're out selling tomatoes and people are buying up all you produce for a buck each, are you ever going to go, "Y'know what, let's drop the price to seventy-five cents."? Hell no ya aren't, and neither are they. That said, inflation is still lower in the United States than it is most everywhere else, but... they ignore that because their goal is "Biden is bad! Ignore everything that says he isn't, amplify everything that says he is, and lie all you have to because our base isn't going to verify anything, anyway. They'll just repeat it all day on Twitter now that Elon opened the sluice gates and let all of the human-sewage back on...

They're not going to try to slam what's happening economically under Biden using facts, because... they don't have any. They'll just repeat what their websites tell 'em, rather than looking at the actual data.

Floridatexan, Telstar and RealLindaL like this post

zsomething



Krugman tried to explain some of this...

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/09/opinion/economy-survey-republicans.html?unlocked_article_code=1.Mk0.R8Iu.UySU3SzcdsNY&smid=url-share

Opinion
Is Poor Economic Sentiment All About MAGA?
Jan. 9, 2024
By Paul Krugman


The economy is good, but Americans feel bad about it. Or do they?

The more I look into it, the more I’m convinced that much of what looks like poor public perception about the economy is actually just Republicans angry that Donald Trump isn’t still president.


Last year was a very good one for the U.S. economy. Job growth was strong, unemployment remained near a 50-year low and inflation plunged. Some reports I’ve seen suggest that this favorable combination was somehow paradoxical and contrary to economic theory. In fact, however, it’s exactly what textbook economics says to expect in an economy experiencing an improvement in its productive capacity. And I do mean textbook economics. Here’s a figure from one of the leading introductory economics textbooks — OK, Krugman and Wells, seventh edition (forthcoming) — on the effects of adverse and favorable “supply shocks”:

It's been a while since I posted here, but let's get right into it and talk about Bidenomics. Krugman090124_1-jumbo


Setting aside the added details that you can read about there, you can clearly see that the right panel, showing the effects of a positive supply shock, exactly matches what happened in 2023: strong growth combined with falling inflation.

Furthermore, the source of the positive supply shock is obvious: The economy finally got past the disruptions caused by the Covid-19 pandemic. Working out those disruptions took longer than almost anyone expected, then happened faster than almost anyone expected, but there’s no great mystery here. If some prominent economists denied that such a thing was possible, well, that’s their problem.

What is a mystery is why the improving economy hasn’t been reflected in public perceptions. There have been some fairly elaborate analyses of the divergence between economic fundamentals and consumer sentiment, but here’s a simple version:


It's been a while since I posted here, but let's get right into it and talk about Bidenomics. Krugman090134_2-jumbo

The blue line is the economic sentiment index that has been produced for decades by the University of Michigan. The red line is the “misery index,” the sum of the unemployment rate and the inflation rate, inverted so that up means improved conditions. Until a few years ago, these two measures generally moved together. But despite an uptick in the most recent numbers (not shown), consumer sentiment remains at levels that in the past were associated with severe recessions, very high inflation or both.

As I and many others have pointed out, consumers’ behavior doesn’t match the grim answers they give pollsters: Actual consumer spending remains strong. Still, where is that negative assessment coming from?

Now, Michigan isn’t the only game in town. Another long-running survey, from the Conference Board, paints a more favorable picture, especially for perceptions of the present situation as opposed to expectations. And there’s a newer, internet-based survey, from Civiqs; I am by no means an expert on economic surveys, but Civiqs seems to be using fairly sophisticated methodology.

And their results on economic views by political affiliation look broadly in line with those found by Michigan for “current economic conditions.” The difference is that the Michigan numbers, which are based on a small sample, are very noisy, while Civiqs uses a bigger sample plus statistical wizardry to produce “smoothly trending estimates.” I wouldn’t bet my life on the Civiqs estimates, but in what follows I’m going to use them to suggest that one of the factors everyone knows is affecting consumer sentiment — partisanship — may be even more important than most economists realize. Indeed, weak consumer sentiment may be almost entirely about MAGA.

It has been obvious for a while that views of the economy have become increasingly partisan. It’s also clear that this partisanship is asymmetric: Republicans are much more likely than Democrats to say that the economy is good when their party holds the White House and bad when it doesn’t.

But the Civiqs charts show this asymmetric partisanship especially clearly.

Republican assessments of the economy soared when Donald Trump took office. Even during the pandemic recession, when unemployment rose to almost 15 percent, Republicans had a more favorable view of the economy than they did in the Obama years. And when Joe Biden came in, almost all Republicans declared that the economy was bad — a view that has barely budged in the face of good macroeconomic news.

Democrats are not Republicans’ mirror image. Here’s what the Civiqs numbers look like:

It's been a while since I posted here, but let's get right into it and talk about Bidenomics. Krugman090124_3-jumbo

If you squint hard, you might see some decline in Democratic economic optimism around the time of Trump’s election, but it’s small. Democrats did feel better about the economy after Biden won, but the economy actually was improving as we recovered from the Covid shutdown. And Democrats’ economic sentiment thereafter followed economic fundamentals, declining as inflation rose, then improving as inflation came down.


What about independents? Never mind. True independents, voters without partisan leaning, barely exist; data for independents is basically an average of voters who think like Democrats and voters who think like Republicans.

What I find most interesting about Democrats’ numbers is what we don’t see: a clear drag on sentiment from the level of prices. There’s a lot of anecdotal evidence — and innumerable posts on social media — to the effect that Americans are upset about how much things cost rather than the inflation rate over the past year. But that’s not obvious from the Civiqs chart on Democrats, who are roughly as positive about the economy now as they were in Biden’s early months, before the big price increases of 2021-22.

I’m not prepared to completely dismiss the issue of the overall price level, which is backed by academic research as well as anecdotes. But as I said, it’s not obvious in the survey data.

So maybe we should at least entertain the hypothesis that the historically anomalous behavior of consumer sentiment reflects the historically anomalous nature of the modern G.O.P., two-thirds of whose supporters believe — based on no evidence — that the 2020 election was stolen. Maybe economic polling, like everything else with this crowd, is all about MAGA.

If that’s really true, the political implications are somewhat ambiguous. Poor economic sentiment may not weigh on Biden because it’s being driven by people who would never vote for him anyway. On the other hand, this interpretation suggests that most of the political upside of an improving economy may already be baked in, since Democrats have already accepted the good news, while Republicans never will.



In any case, the general point is that you just can’t interpret surveys of economic sentiment, or for that matter anything else, without taking into account the fact that the modern G.O.P. bears no resemblance to the Republican Party of past years, or for that matter any political party in modern U.S. history.

Telstar and RealLindaL like this post

5It's been a while since I posted here, but let's get right into it and talk about Bidenomics. Empty all the charts don't matter 1/29/2024, 5:14 pm

bigdog



Not as long as the average American family pays between 2 and 3 hundred dollars everytime they walk into a Walmart to buy groceries. Trumpers are not bright, that is true. And that's why they are the less educated among us. But they can count and they don't give a damn about the stock market. The news media cannot convince them of something they can't see. Unless the prices at Walmart go down. i am very afraid for Joe this year.

RealLindaL



Sadly, prices at the grocery store are not going to go down, and that same average American will not likely see that it has absolutely nothing to do with Biden, and everything to do with the fact that, once companies find they're able to get higher prices on goods, they're not likely to ever take prices back to previous, lower levels, absent perhaps a major recession, which no one wants, either.  Too simplistic?  Perhaps, but consider the logic of incentives, or lack of same.
That said, I share the deep worry about the Democrats' chances of retaining the White House this year.

zsomething likes this post

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