If I was born in iraq or iran, I might be fighting Americans. Is it a crime to have pride in where you come from?

it amazes me that people will only define this nation by what wars they are in or not.

This country is SO much more than fighting a war that may or may not be what we should do.

Do ya'll not see that?

perhaps some other people cant see the forest for the tree too.

Bob wrote:I'm not sure we can judge countries the same way they judge singers on American Idol, dreamsglore.
Great things have happened in America and so has stupid stuff. I'm not aware of any country which can lay claim to only the greatness part.

We can judge a country by the way they take care of their citizens. Other countries do a much better job than our greedy ass's.This is the land of greed and money and "I got mine so screw you". Yes, we're great alright. We stick our nose in other countries business and tell them how they're going to live ...and they don't want it.We send our children over to fight in wars and get blown to pieces while our big ,fat old ass's sit here smoking cigars and drinking Jose Cuervo counting their money.

Dreamsglore wrote:

Bob wrote:I'm not sure we can judge countries the same way they judge singers on American Idol, dreamsglore.
Great things have happened in America and so has stupid stuff. I'm not aware of any country which can lay claim to only the greatness part.

We can judge a country by the way they take care of their citizens. Other countries do a much better job than our greedy ass's.This is the land of greed and money and "I got mine so screw you". Yes, we're great alright. We stick our nose in other countries business and tell them how they're going to live ...and they don't want it.We send our children over to fight in wars and get blown to pieces while our big ,fat old ass's sit here smoking cigars and drinking Jose Cuervo counting their money.

Yeah....that's it...

Dreamsglore wrote:

Bob wrote:I'm not sure we can judge countries the same way they judge singers on American Idol, dreamsglore.
Great things have happened in America and so has stupid stuff. I'm not aware of any country which can lay claim to only the greatness part.

We can judge a country by the way they take care of their citizens. Other countries do a much better job than our greedy ass's.This is the land of greed and money and "I got mine so screw you". Yes, we're great alright. We stick our nose in other countries business and tell them how they're going to live ...and they don't want it.We send our children over to fight in wars and get blown to pieces while our big ,fat old ass's sit here smoking cigars and drinking Jose Cuervo counting their money.

Instead of cigars and jose cuervo, many of our countries profiteers buy blunts and 40's. And a lotto scratcher if theres anything left over.

TEOTWAWKI wrote:

Dreamsglore wrote:

Bob wrote:I'm not sure we can judge countries the same way they judge singers on American Idol, dreamsglore.
Great things have happened in America and so has stupid stuff. I'm not aware of any country which can lay claim to only the greatness part.

We can judge a country by the way they take care of their citizens. Other countries do a much better job than our greedy ass's.This is the land of greed and money and "I got mine so screw you". Yes, we're great alright. We stick our nose in other countries business and tell them how they're going to live ...and they don't want it.We send our children over to fight in wars and get blown to pieces while our big ,fat old ass's sit here smoking cigars and drinking Jose Cuervo counting their money.

Yeah....that's it...

see what I mean. people start to buy that anti americanism shit. then they go off the deep end and think this is the worse country in the world but truth is, they wouldnt last a day in any other country before they started whining...... dont worry though, the bad seeds are already planted.

Speaking of the lottery. A local friend of mine won more than $11,000 on a lottery ticket in Saturday's drawing. He had five numbers and the "extra" or whatever it's called to double the payout. One of only about five people in the whole damn lottery who had that.

Rogue wrote:

TEOTWAWKI wrote:

Dreamsglore wrote:

Bob wrote:I'm not sure we can judge countries the same way they judge singers on American Idol, dreamsglore.
Great things have happened in America and so has stupid stuff. I'm not aware of any country which can lay claim to only the greatness part.

We can judge a country by the way they take care of their citizens. Other countries do a much better job than our greedy ass's.This is the land of greed and money and "I got mine so screw you". Yes, we're great alright. We stick our nose in other countries business and tell them how they're going to live ...and they don't want it.We send our children over to fight in wars and get blown to pieces while our big ,fat old ass's sit here smoking cigars and drinking Jose Cuervo counting their money.

Yeah....that's it...

see what I mean. people start to buy that anti americanism shit. then they go off the deep end and think this is the worse country in the world but truth is, they wouldnt last a day in any other country before they started whining...... dont worry though, the bad seeds are already planted.

Kinda like you were when your son was stranded in Hawaii?
I'm pissed about what is happening to my Country because I do care about it...

Lurch wrote:

Rogue wrote:

TEOTWAWKI wrote:

Dreamsglore wrote:

Bob wrote:I'm not sure we can judge countries the same way they judge singers on American Idol, dreamsglore.
Great things have happened in America and so has stupid stuff. I'm not aware of any country which can lay claim to only the greatness part.

We can judge a country by the way they take care of their citizens. Other countries do a much better job than our greedy ass's.This is the land of greed and money and "I got mine so screw you". Yes, we're great alright. We stick our nose in other countries business and tell them how they're going to live ...and they don't want it.We send our children over to fight in wars and get blown to pieces while our big ,fat old ass's sit here smoking cigars and drinking Jose Cuervo counting their money.

Yeah....that's it...

see what I mean. people start to buy that anti americanism shit. then they go off the deep end and think this is the worse country in the world but truth is, they wouldnt last a day in any other country before they started whining...... dont worry though, the bad seeds are already planted.

Kinda like you were when your son was stranded in Hawaii?
I'm pissed about what is happening to my Country because I do care about it...

Lurch, I dont get the analogy of me being worried about my son.

if you are going to compare worrie for a son to worry for your country then lets see how that could be..

the country is your son, your son isnt exactly doing how you think he should be doing. He may be causing you some embarressment. He is making some bad decisions and it angers you.

Now, what do you do? do you go around bad mouthing him, do you belittle him to his face so he gos away from you forever?

or do you explain to him what you dont like and how you are worried. Then remind him of all the wonderful things he has done and can do. Do you lift him up with inspiration or beat him down with a inferiority complex?

which is it? I know you understand what I just said. your a smart fella.

I dont think Mr (I am the richest man in the world)answered Lurchs question. So I will ask. Mr Ghandi just how much money do you make in a year? 100,000 maybe 150,000? Inquiring minds would like to know. Do you make more than Mr Lurch? My son? I will start. My son paid tax on 118,000 last year. What say you?

Rogue wrote:

TEOTWAWKI wrote:

Dreamsglore wrote:

Bob wrote:I'm not sure we can judge countries the same way they judge singers on American Idol, dreamsglore.
Great things have happened in America and so has stupid stuff. I'm not aware of any country which can lay claim to only the greatness part.

We can judge a country by the way they take care of their citizens. Other countries do a much better job than our greedy ass's.This is the land of greed and money and "I got mine so screw you". Yes, we're great alright. We stick our nose in other countries business and tell them how they're going to live ...and they don't want it.We send our children over to fight in wars and get blown to pieces while our big ,fat old ass's sit here smoking cigars and drinking Jose Cuervo counting their money.

Yeah....that's it...

see what I mean. people start to buy that anti americanism shit. then they go off the deep end and think this is the worse country in the world but truth is, they wouldnt last a day in any other country before they started whining...... dont worry though, the bad seeds are already planted.

I'm not anti-american but I'm realistic about who we are.We're not exceptional.We have many people going hungry and living poorly.What's exceptional about that? I'd live great in lots of other countries

Lurch wrote:There's just too much money being made making wars..
It doesn't matter if we kill civilians like we did during Shock-n-Awe..
It's called collateral damage so that means it's Okay to do it..

I take it that you are fully aware that Saddam Hussein killed more of his own citizens during his reign of terror than civilians killed during the UN invasion of Iraq.

I didn't think so. Far fewer are being killed today.

Markle wrote:

Lurch wrote:There's just too much money being made making wars..
It doesn't matter if we kill civilians like we did during Shock-n-Awe..
It's called collateral damage so that means it's Okay to do it..

I take it that you are fully aware that Saddam Hussein killed more of his own citizens during his reign of terror than civilians killed during the UN invasion of Iraq.

I didn't think so. Far fewer are being killed today.

Kim Jung Un is tormenting and killing his own citizenry too. When are you going to suit up and be part of the American invasion and occupation of North Korea? You're not a liberal appeaser are you who believes Kim Jung Un can be reasoned with? A good conservative wants to give those North Koreans democracy like we did in Iraq.

Dreamsglore wrote:

Rogue wrote:

Bob wrote:

Rogue wrote:Back to what I said erlier.

I can see some of you are full to the brim with National pride.

Dont worry. That kind of thought eventually seeps into the system via youth and then grows with it and then boom. The nation falls.

You wont have long before this terrible nation is over, so rejoice and know your efforts have not been in vain.

So I guess by just my asking this question that means I'm now one of the people who is most responsible for bringing an end to our country.
Remarkable.

I didnt say that. ( people can fit thier own shoes )

Ill put it as plain as I can.

You either beleive in American exceptialism

or you dont.

If you dont, trust me, it will go away. Thats when you will miss it.

The only place we are exceptional is in our minds. The rest of the world laughs at us.

The peaceful citizens of these countries are not laughing at being slaughtered by their own leaders. Meanwhile, President Barack Hussein Obama turns his back and hits the golf course.





Of course, President Obama doesn't even protect our own embassies or ambassadors.

TEOTWAWKI wrote:Hey we Nuked japan ...twice now that's exceptional. Real bad trip for japan ..thought they were fighting a conventional war and we surprised and vaporized them..poof..

Poof, war over and hundreds of thousands of lives saved.

ENDED the war, helped rebuild Japan and now they are allies.

The problem?

Obviously markle is a NINO (neocon in name only). A real neocon would want to invade north korea right away.

Bob wrote:

Markle wrote:

Lurch wrote:There's just too much money being made making wars..
It doesn't matter if we kill civilians like we did during Shock-n-Awe..
It's called collateral damage so that means it's Okay to do it..

I take it that you are fully aware that Saddam Hussein killed more of his own citizens during his reign of terror than civilians killed during the UN invasion of Iraq.

I didn't think so. Far fewer are being killed today.

Kim Jung Un is tormenting and killing his own citizenry too. When are you going to suit up and be part of the American invasion and occupation of North Korea? You're not a liberal appeaser are you who believes Kim Jung Un can be reasoned with? A good conservative wants to give those North Koreans democracy like we did in Iraq.

Been there, done that and got the "T" shirt. You? More importantly, who cares.

The world had dozens of sanctions and UN Resolutions against Iraq which had been defied. Our Congress also voted to use force against Iraq.

Cute try.

Bob wrote:You asked "why do we do it", ghandi.

Here's how the two-time Congressional Medal of Honor winning Marine answered that...


The normal profits of a business concern in the United States are six, eight, ten, and sometimes twelve percent. But war-time profits -- ah! that is another matter -- twenty, sixty, one hundred, three hundred, and even eighteen hundred per cent -- the sky is the limit. All that traffic will bear. Uncle Sam has the money. Let's get it.

Of course, it isn't put that crudely in war time. It is dressed into speeches about patriotism, love of country, and "we must all put our shoulders to the wheel," but the profits jump and leap and skyrocket -- and are safely pocketed. Let's just take a few examples:

Take our friends the du Ponts, the powder people -- didn't one of them testify before a Senate committee recently that their powder won the war? Or saved the world for democracy? Or something? How did they do in the war? They were a patriotic corporation. Well, the average earnings of the du Ponts for the period 1910 to 1914 were $6,000,000 a year. It wasn't much, but the du Ponts managed to get along on it. Now let's look at their average yearly profit during the war years, 1914 to 1918. Fifty-eight million dollars a year profit we find! Nearly ten times that of normal times, and the profits of normal times were pretty good. An increase in profits of more than 950 per cent.

Take one of our little steel companies that patriotically shunted aside the making of rails and girders and bridges to manufacture war materials. Well, their 1910-1914 yearly earnings averaged $6,000,000. Then came the war. And, like loyal citizens, Bethlehem Steel promptly turned to munitions making. Did their profits jump -- or did they let Uncle Sam in for a bargain? Well, their 1914-1918 average was $49,000,000 a year!

Or, let's take United States Steel. The normal earnings during the five-year period prior to the war were $105,000,000 a year. Not bad. Then along came the war and up went the profits. The average yearly profit for the period 1914-1918 was $240,000,000. Not bad.

There you have some of the steel and powder earnings. Let's look at something else. A little copper, perhaps. That always does well in war times.

Anaconda, for instance. Average yearly earnings during the pre-war years 1910-1914 of $10,000,000. During the war years 1914-1918 profits leaped to $34,000,000 per year.

Or Utah Copper. Average of $5,000,000 per year during the 1910-1914 period. Jumped to an average of $21,000,000 yearly profits for the war period.

Let's group these five, with three smaller companies. The total yearly average profits of the pre-war period 1910-1914 were $137,480,000. Then along came the war. The average yearly profits for this group skyrocketed to $408,300,000.

A little increase in profits of approximately 200 per cent.

Does war pay? It paid them. But they aren't the only ones. There are still others. Let's take leather.

For the three-year period before the war the total profits of Central Leather Company were $3,500,000. That was approximately $1,167,000 a year. Well, in 1916 Central Leather returned a profit of $15,000,000, a small increase of 1,100 per cent. That's all. The General Chemical Company averaged a profit for the three years before the war of a little over $800,000 a year. Came the war, and the profits jumped to $12,000,000. a leap of 1,400 per cent.

International Nickel Company -- and you can't have a war without nickel -- showed an increase in profits from a mere average of $4,000,000 a year to $73,000,000 yearly. Not bad? An increase of more than 1,700 per cent.

American Sugar Refining Company averaged $2,000,000 a year for the three years before the war. In 1916 a profit of $6,000,000 was recorded.

Listen to Senate Document No. 259. The Sixty-Fifth Congress, reporting on corporate earnings and government revenues. Considering the profits of 122 meat packers, 153 cotton manufacturers, 299 garment makers, 49 steel plants, and 340 coal producers during the war. Profits under 25 per cent were exceptional. For instance the coal companies made between 100 per cent and 7,856 per cent on their capital stock during the war. The Chicago packers doubled and tripled their earnings.

And let us not forget the bankers who financed the great war. If anyone had the cream of the profits it was the bankers. Being partnerships rather than incorporated organizations, they do not have to report to stockholders. And their profits were as secret as they were immense. How the bankers made their millions and their billions I do not know, because those little secrets never become public -- even before a Senate investigatory body.

But here's how some of the other patriotic industrialists and speculators chiseled their way into war profits.

Take the shoe people. They like war. It brings business with abnormal profits. They made huge profits on sales abroad to our allies. Perhaps, like the munitions manufacturers and armament makers, they also sold to the enemy. For a dollar is a dollar whether it comes from Germany or from France. But they did well by Uncle Sam too. For instance, they sold Uncle Sam 35,000,000 pairs of hobnailed service shoes. There were 4,000,000 soldiers. Eight pairs, and more, to a soldier. My regiment during the war had only one pair to a soldier. Some of these shoes probably are still in existence. They were good shoes. But when the war was over Uncle Sam has a matter of 25,000,000 pairs left over. Bought -- and paid for. Profits recorded and pocketed.

There was still lots of leather left. So the leather people sold your Uncle Sam hundreds of thousands of McClellan saddles for the cavalry. But there wasn't any American cavalry overseas! Somebody had to get rid of this leather, however. Somebody had to make a profit in it -- so we had a lot of McClellan saddles. And we probably have those yet.

Also somebody had a lot of mosquito netting. They sold your Uncle Sam 20,000,000 mosquito nets for the use of the soldiers overseas. I suppose the boys were expected to put it over them as they tried to sleep in muddy trenches -- one hand scratching cooties on their backs and the other making passes at scurrying rats. Well, not one of these mosquito nets ever got to France!

Anyhow, these thoughtful manufacturers wanted to make sure that no soldier would be without his mosquito net, so 40,000,000 additional yards of mosquito netting were sold to Uncle Sam.

There were pretty good profits in mosquito netting in those days, even if there were no mosquitoes in France. I suppose, if the war had lasted just a little longer, the enterprising mosquito netting manufacturers would have sold your Uncle Sam a couple of consignments of mosquitoes to plant in France so that more mosquito netting would be in order.

Airplane and engine manufacturers felt they, too, should get their just profits out of this war. Why not? Everybody else was getting theirs. So $1,000,000,000 -- count them if you live long enough -- was spent by Uncle Sam in building airplane engines that never left the ground! Not one plane, or motor, out of the billion dollars worth ordered, ever got into a battle in France. Just the same the manufacturers made their little profit of 30, 100, or perhaps 300 per cent.

Undershirts for soldiers cost 14¢ [cents] to make and uncle Sam paid 30¢ to 40¢ each for them -- a nice little profit for the undershirt manufacturer. And the stocking manufacturer and the uniform manufacturers and the cap manufacturers and the steel helmet manufacturers -- all got theirs.

Why, when the war was over some 4,000,000 sets of equipment -- knapsacks and the things that go to fill them -- crammed warehouses on this side. Now they are being scrapped because the regulations have changed the contents. But the manufacturers collected their wartime profits on them -- and they will do it all over again the next time.

There were lots of brilliant ideas for profit making during the war.

One very versatile patriot sold Uncle Sam twelve dozen 48-inch wrenches. Oh, they were very nice wrenches. The only trouble was that there was only one nut ever made that was large enough for these wrenches. That is the one that holds the turbines at Niagara Falls. Well, after Uncle Sam had bought them and the manufacturer had pocketed the profit, the wrenches were put on freight cars and shunted all around the United States in an effort to find a use for them. When the Armistice was signed it was indeed a sad blow to the wrench manufacturer. He was just about to make some nuts to fit the wrenches. Then he planned to sell these, too, to your Uncle Sam.

Still another had the brilliant idea that colonels shouldn't ride in automobiles, nor should they even ride on horseback. One has probably seen a picture of Andy Jackson riding in a buckboard. Well, some 6,000 buckboards were sold to Uncle Sam for the use of colonels! Not one of them was used. But the buckboard manufacturer got his war profit.

The shipbuilders felt they should come in on some of it, too. They built a lot of ships that made a lot of profit. More than $3,000,000,000 worth. Some of the ships were all right. But $635,000,000 worth of them were made of wood and wouldn't float! The seams opened up -- and they sank. We paid for them, though. And somebody pocketed the profits.

It has been estimated by statisticians and economists and researchers that the war cost your Uncle Sam $52,000,000,000. Of this sum, $39,000,000,000 was expended in the actual war itself. This expenditure yielded $16,000,000,000 in profits. That is how the 21,000 billionaires and millionaires got that way. This $16,000,000,000 profits is not to be sneezed at. It is quite a tidy sum. And it went to a very few.

The Senate (Nye) committee probe of the munitions industry and its wartime profits, despite its sensational disclosures, hardly has scratched the surface.

Even so, it has had some effect. The State Department has been studying "for some time" methods of keeping out of war. The War Department suddenly decides it has a wonderful plan to spring. The Administration names a committee -- with the War and Navy Departments ably represented under the chairmanship of a Wall Street speculator -- to limit profits in war time. To what extent isn't suggested. Hmmm. Possibly the profits of 300 and 600 and 1,600 per cent of those who turned blood into gold in the World War would be limited to some smaller figure.

Apparently, however, the plan does not call for any limitation of losses -- that is, the losses of those who fight the war. As far as I have been able to ascertain there is nothing in the scheme to limit a soldier to the loss of but one eye, or one arm, or to limit his wounds to one or two or three. Or to limit the loss of life.

There is nothing in this scheme, apparently, that says not more than 12 per cent of a regiment shall be wounded in battle, or that not more than 7 per cent in a division shall be killed.

Of course, the committee cannot be bothered with such trifling matters.

Would have been nice if you had provided you link to one radicals opinion and even the name of the person you seem to have plagarized.

Markle wrote:
Our Congress also voted to use force against Iraq.

Cute try.

Gotcha. I love how you make use of the position democrat politicians take to argue in favor of something ONLY when you support it too. But at all other times, anything the democrats come out in favor of is always evil. lol

Markle wrote:

Would have been nice if you had provided you link to one radicals opinion and even the name of the person you seem to have plagarized.

I already linked ghandi to the page that was on in an earlier post. Since I then realized he would ignore it, I thought maybe he would be more inclined to read it if I put the goddamn text in a post. But obviously he's not going to read anything about war that doesn't come from sean hannity or rush limbaugh so it's hopeless.

You no longer get a pass on calling me a liar and a plagiarist and all that you creepy little so and so you. If you can't refrain from constantly calling me a liar then that's just a sign that you aren't capable of debating me without resorting to that nonsense.

Dreamsglore wrote:

Rogue wrote:

TEOTWAWKI wrote:

Dreamsglore wrote:

Bob wrote:I'm not sure we can judge countries the same way they judge singers on American Idol, dreamsglore.
Great things have happened in America and so has stupid stuff. I'm not aware of any country which can lay claim to only the greatness part.

We can judge a country by the way they take care of their citizens. Other countries do a much better job than our greedy ass's.This is the land of greed and money and "I got mine so screw you". Yes, we're great alright. We stick our nose in other countries business and tell them how they're going to live ...and they don't want it.We send our children over to fight in wars and get blown to pieces while our big ,fat old ass's sit here smoking cigars and drinking Jose Cuervo counting their money.

Yeah....that's it...

see what I mean. people start to buy that anti americanism shit. then they go off the deep end and think this is the worse country in the world but truth is, they wouldnt last a day in any other country before they started whining...... dont worry though, the bad seeds are already planted.

I'm not anti-american but I'm realistic about who we are.We're not exceptional.We have many people going hungry and living poorly.What's exceptional about that? I'd live great in lots of other countries

please move to any country of your choice you think is more exceptional than America.

This is the best country on the planet.

and Im still waiting for Lurch to answer my reply. Lurch?

Chrissy,

Have you ever heard of the phrase "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel"?

Bob wrote:Chrissy,

Have you ever heard of the phrase "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel"?

No I havnt and I dont beleive it either.

Do you beleive that?

Rogue wrote:

Bob wrote:Chrissy,

Have you ever heard of the phrase "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel"?

No I havnt and I dont beleive it either.

Do you beleive that?

Would it make any difference if I told you Adolf Hitler used patriotism to get his way with his people? Or that the Ayatollah and the "supreme leader" and Ahmedinejad are doing exactly the same thing? Or that that little pig in North Korea is using patriotism to convince all those people in the North Korean military to protect him and keep him on his throne?
Would it make any difference for you to learn that patriotism is definitely the last refuge of all those scoundrels?

Bob wrote:

Rogue wrote:

Bob wrote:Chrissy,

Have you ever heard of the phrase "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel"?

No I havnt and I dont beleive it either.

Do you beleive that?

Would it make any difference if I told you Adolf Hitler used patriotism to get his way with his people? Or that the Ayatollah and the "supreme leader" and Ahmedinejad are doing exactly the same thing? Or that that little pig in North Korea is using patriotism to convince all those people in the North Korean military to protect him and keep him on his throne?
Would it make any difference for you to learn that patriotism is definitely the last refuge of all those scoundrels?

They use religion too.. just look at all of the "christian" warmongers we have on this forum..

Lurch wrote:

Bob wrote:

Rogue wrote:

Bob wrote:Chrissy,

Have you ever heard of the phrase "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel"?

No I havnt and I dont beleive it either.

Do you beleive that?

Would it make any difference if I told you Adolf Hitler used patriotism to get his way with his people? Or that the Ayatollah and the "supreme leader" and Ahmedinejad are doing exactly the same thing? Or that that little pig in North Korea is using patriotism to convince all those people in the North Korean military to protect him and keep him on his throne?
Would it make any difference for you to learn that patriotism is definitely the last refuge of all those scoundrels?

They use religion too.. just look at all of the "christian" warmongers we have on this forum..

You really have it in for Christians, don't you?