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When Popes Confront the Political World

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TEOTWAWKI
Markle
2seaoat
Sal
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Sal

Sal

Regardless of what you think about the Pope, or his positions, or his address to Congress, this is a very interesting read ...

Everything Pope Francis does seems unprecedented and unmatched, but when he stands before the General Assembly of the United Nations this week, the image of another pope will intrude. The U.N. speech delivered by Pope Paul VI in 1965, almost exactly fifty years ago, resonated across the world. Closer to home, the Pope’s words opened a breach between me and my father, and though our situation was particular, our sad conflict was not unique, but typical of a generation. For people of a certain age, Paul VI at the U.N. remains the unlikely measure of the difference a pope can make, of the pain that can come when a pope speaks the truth, and of the tragedy that can follow when that truth is ignored.

Dad had anxiously awaited the papal message less because he was a devoted Catholic—he had studied for the priesthood, as I was doing at the time—than because of his job at the Pentagon. The founding director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, Lt. Gen. Joseph F. Carroll was expecting Pope Paul VI to stoutly affirm the recently launched American war in Vietnam. After all, during long service in the Vatican Secretariat of State, Giovanni Battista Montini had been at the elbow of the fiercely anti-Communist Pope Pius XII, and could be expected to grasp the urgency of holding the line against Communist aggression in Southeast Asia. Indeed, the Pope’s host in New York, the all-powerful Cardinal Francis Spellman, was himself an ardent supporter of the U.S. crusade in Vietnam.

It was October. The previous February, Lyndon Johnson, fresh off his victory over Barry Goldwater, whom he portrayed as a warmonger, had ordered the start of a massive air war against North Vietnam: Operation Rolling Thunder. In March, the first U.S. combat troops were deployed, and by the time of the Pope’s visit, Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, presumably acting on assessments provided by the Defense Intelligence Agency, had set U.S. force levels at more than 100,000 troops. But the first stirrings of opposition to the war had come that spring and summer, and by October protests were building in dozens of cities around the world. The Pope’s support at the United Nations would underscore the war’s moral legitimacy—just in time.

But that’s not what happened. Paul VI summed up the whole purpose of his trip to America with words that astonished his listeners and the world:

"Here our message reaches its culmination…These are the words you are looking for us to say and the words we cannot utter without feeling aware of their seriousness and solemnity: never again one against the other, never, never again! Was this not the very end for which the United Nations came into existence: to be against war and for peace?"

Before arriving at the United Nations, Paul VI had met briefly with President Johnson at the nearby Waldorf Astoria Hotel, and one imagines Johnson wincing at what the Pope said next:

"Listen to the words of a great man who is no longer with us, John Kennedy, who proclaimed four years ago: ‘Mankind must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind.’ There is no need for a long talk to proclaim the main purpose of your Institution. It is enough to recall that the blood of millions, countless unheard-of sufferings, useless massacres and frightening ruins have sanctioned the agreement that unites you with an oath that ought to change the future history of the world: never again war, never again war!"


The pope’s hands were open as he spoke, as if in pleading. “It is peace,” he declared, using a word that was already taking on a perilous new resonance, “peace that has to guide the destiny of the nations of all mankind.”

Later, sitting in the living room of my parents’ house on General’s Row at Bolling Air Force Base in Washington, I asked my father what he thought of the Pope’s speech. My father was the best man I knew. It's not too much to say that my impulses toward worship extended to him. My voice may have cracked with its question.

An orderly had just served my father his drink. He looked up from it. His collar was open, his blue tie loosened. He knew exactly what I was asking. He replied evenly, “His Holiness said ‘Drop your weapons.’ But in the real world our weapons keep the peace.”

“But Vietnam—“ I began.

Dad cut me off sharply. “His Holiness does his job by holding up the ideal. We do ours by seeing how it applies in a specific situation, which assumes information and expertise His Holiness doesn’t have.”

My father’s information and expertise were no doubt essential to the memo McNamara sent to Johnson a little over a month later, a recommendation to vastly escalate the number of U.S. combat troops, up to more than 400,000 in 1966, with 200,000 to follow in 1967. The depth of the American abyss was set. So much for the wisdom of “the real world." Our nation's tragedy would be the writ-large of my father's.

Now another pope, standing before the U.N. General Assembly, can be expected to “hold up the ideal” on questions ranging from climate change to economic inequality to the plight of migrants. And once more, the possessors of “information and expertise” can be expected to dismiss his exhortations. The supposed divide between idealism and realism continues to undergird the economic, military, political and environmental status quo, as if the so-called realists have not been, again and again, catastrophically wrong.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/when-popes-confront-the-political-world

Guest


Guest

Huge can of worms to open - Popes and Politics.

Sal

Sal

What can of worms?

Feed the poor, take care of each other, remember the country's DNA?

Yeah, I'd hate to be on the same side as all of that.

Guest


Guest

The Catholic Church has been a political entity since it's beginning. All one has to do is read history to see the control the church had on both social and political issues.

The caring for the poor, sick, widows...all good things.

Do you honestly think, given the Church's history, that is all the Pope is concerned with?

As he stands in Congress?

And, again, why is there a sudden acceptance of "church" in the state?

Sal

Sal

I just don't see it.

Clue me in on the Holy See's hidden agenda.

2seaoat



And, again, why is there a sudden acceptance of "church" in the state?



Nothing sudden, we have had a paid Chaplin praying in the house and Senate since 1789. The Supreme Court ruled last spring that the Constitution allows municipal governing boards to start their sessions with a prayer. The justices upheld, 5-4, the practice of the town council of Greece, N.Y., which picks a “chaplain of the month” who has almost always been Christian and who often uses decidedly sectarian language. The argument of other religious sects not having equal access would become a concern if there was exclusion or monopoly.

So there has never been an issue of this happening in Congress. If however, the only and exclusive message was Catholic, the law would build separation between the Church and state. No big deal. Unless you see the stink which kicked up when a Muslim was the Chaplin.....nothing new here.

Guest


Guest

Chaplain doesn't refer to a Catholic in particular. The Current Occupant of the Vatican is a socialist. He's all for giving away other folks money.

Markle

Markle

SheWrites wrote:The Catholic Church has been a political entity since it's beginning.  All one has to do is read history to see the control the church had on both social and political issues.  

The caring for the poor, sick, widows...all good things.  

Do you honestly think, given the Church's history, that is all the Pope is concerned with?  

As he stands in Congress?  

And, again, why is there a sudden acceptance of "church" in the state?  


What are you talking about?

Sal

Sal

Obamasucks wrote:Chaplain doesn't refer to a Catholic in particular. The Current Occupant of the Vatican is a socialist.  He's all for giving away other folks money.

Jesus was a socialist, dumbass.

2seaoat



Jesus was a socialist, dumbass.


This pope is the closest in my lifetime of espousing true Christian belief and urging folks to individually push the bubble and live a life of Christ. A powerful message coming from a man who carries his own luggage and begins with the proposition that each of us must follow the Golden rule. We have been a selfish and self absorbed generation. This pope cares about the children. China will announce cap and trade in China, and America is soon to follow, and this man of god is just in time. Quite an extraordinary day in my life. Grace is subtle and certain.

Sal

Sal

I agree.

I consider myself an agnostic ex-Catholic, and I've found myself genuinely moved by his visit, when I certainly did not expect to be.

His acknowledgements of Thomas Merton and Dorothy Day were extraordinary.

2seaoat



His acknowledgements of Thomas Merton and Dorothy Day were extraordinary.


Abe and Martin Luther were easy......for those who google these folks will get the essence of his message.

TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

Yup he's a good little Marxist...no wonder you guys are gushing.

2seaoat



Yup he's a good little Marxist...no wonder you guys are gushing.


What is your understanding of the teachings of Jesus in regard to a political philosophy? Was it libertarian? Was it fascist? Was it capitalistic? Was it socialistic? There is a right answer.

Guest


Guest

2seaoat wrote:Yup he's a good little Marxist...no wonder you guys are gushing.


What is your understanding of the teachings of Jesus in regard to a political philosophy?  Was it libertarian?  Was it fascist?   Was it capitalistic?  Was it socialistic?   There is a right answer.

Jesus was not concerned with the politics of the day - he taught generosity, charity, love, and kindness, empathy, compassion.  His intention was never about an earthly kingdom.  

He was charismatic and people were drawn to him.  The political leaders of the day feared him.  The "religious" feared him and denied him.  

He brought reality to those who lived by the letter of the Jewish law.  The Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5-7, messed with their black and white/legalistic thinking.  

Political leaning of Jesus?  There was none.  His way - the way, the truth, and the life. No politics. Only heart and soul.

nadalfan



Salinsky wrote:I agree.

I consider myself an agnostic ex-Catholic, and I've found myself genuinely moved by his visit, when I certainly did not expect to be.

His acknowledgements of Thomas Merton and Dorothy Day were extraordinary.
I don't practice Catholicism, or an other religion for that matter, but I am not surprised that you were moved. Everyone should be moved. This pope's message and emphasis transcends all religions and politics. He represents all that humanity should be, goals we should strive for but he does so within a practical framework. It's very simplistic to box him into a political ideology. I do find it interesting that he makes some people uncomfortable.

Wordslinger

Wordslinger

The Pope just got his 15 minutes of media stardom. Fact: He'll soon be back in his digs in the Vatican, and not a fucking thing will have changed in the world. Syrian and Iraqi immigrants will continue to flood Europe, ISIS will continue to commit atrocities, the Tea Party will continue to fight the Evangelicals, the Dixiecrats and the moderate republicans of their party, Trump and Rubio and the Uncle Tom Doctor who doesn't understand the Constitution will continue to Duke it out, the media will continue to ignore Bernie Sander's meteoric rise in popularity, the hardcore Christian fundamentalist "let's kill all abortionists" crowd will do their best to shut down the government, VW's illegal affront to their customers will open a much larger bag of worms as their competitors are uncovered executing the same sort of disgusting, illegal schemes, because cheating consumers has become the American way. Our cops will continue up-arming and taking out even potential bad guys, and bees all over our country will continue to die because Monsanto and Du Pont have new chemical products to sell.

And nobody will remember Pope Francis's visit. Or care.

Sal

Sal

nadalfan wrote:Everyone should be moved.  This pope's message and emphasis transcends all religions and politics.  He represents all that humanity should be, goals we should strive for but he does so within a practical framework. It's very simplistic to box him into a political ideology.  I do find it interesting that he makes some people uncomfortable.

nadalfan



Salinsky wrote:
nadalfan wrote:Everyone should be moved.  This pope's message and emphasis transcends all religions and politics.  He represents all that humanity should be, goals we should strive for but he does so within a practical framework. It's very simplistic to box him into a political ideology.  I do find it interesting that he makes some people uncomfortable.


Those people are doing the devil's work Very Happy

Floridatexan

Floridatexan


This Pope is the best thing that's happened in the world of Catholicism for many years. He's cleaning house. He has demoted one cardinal, Raymond Leo Burke, for his criticism of the gay community; he has fired all but one of the Vatican's bankers. He has harshly criticized "unfettered capitalism" and income inequality. And he is reported to be visiting the homeless in Rome at night in priest's garb, as he did in his native Argentina. He's dragging the Church into the 21st Century. I applaud him.

VectorMan

VectorMan

I was surprised he didn't bring up the murdering of Christians all over the middle east. It was a perfect opportunity to do so.

He should've also made mention of the murderers at Planned Parenthood and their unholy atrocities.

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