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Will anything change? No

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Hospital Bob
Floridatexan
Sal
nadalfan
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1Will anything change?  No Empty Will anything change? No 7/25/2015, 12:49 pm

nadalfan



We'll have the same arguments and repeat the same prayers for the victims

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/07/waco-columbine-aurora-and-newtown-20-years-and-10-mass-shootings-that-didnt-change-america/

Mass shootings remain an almost exclusively American phenomenon among advanced countries. These 10 rocked the country and galvanized many in favor of gun control – so why has so little of it followed?

Waco, Texas

When: April 19, 1993

What happened: Six cult members and four federal agents were killed in a gun battle during a raid on the headquarters of the Branch Davidian sect at the end of a nearly two-month siege. The cult members had been stockpiling weapons.

What the president [Bill Clinton] said: “ I am deeply saddened by the loss of life in Waco today. My thoughts and prayers are with the families of David Koresh’s victims. The law enforcement agencies involved in the Waco siege recommended the course of action pursued today. The attorney general informed me of their analysis and judgment and recommended that we proceed with today’s action given the risks of maintaining the previous policy indefinitely. I told the attorney general to do what she thought was right, and I stand by that decision.”

What the pro-gun lobby said: “ Waco was supposed to be a way for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) and the Clinton administration to prove the need for a ban on so-called assault weapons … So an incident had to be encouraged to happen.” – Texas congressman Steve Stockman, writing in Guns & Ammo magazine

What happened: President Clinton signed the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 which included a 10-year federal assault weapons ban.

Columbine

When: April 20, 1999

What happened: Twelve students and one teacher were killed when seniors Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold launched an assault on their high school in Columbine, Colorado. Both teens died by suicide before being apprehended.

What the president [Bill Clinton] said: “ I want to make a plea to everybody who is waiting for the next deer season in my home state to think about this in terms of what are reasonable obligations to the larger community of America. Do we know for absolutely certain, if we’d had [the gun control legislation] I’m going to propose here, that none of these schools violent things would have happened? No.

“But we do know one thing for certain. We know there would have been fewer of them and there would have been fewer kids killed in the last several years in America. We know that for certain.”

What the pro-gun lobby said: In the wake of the Columbine shooting the NRA [National Rifle Association] launched its “Be Reasonable” campaign to demonstrate it wasn’t deaf to renewed calls for gun control.

In an advert, it said : “We think it’s reasonable to provide for instant checks at gun shows just like at gun stores and pawn shops. But what’s unreasonable is how the proposed Lautenberg legislation ignores the 250,000 prohibited people, like felons, who’ve walked away from gun stores – instead of being prosecuted for a federal felony for trying to buy a gun.”

What happened: The Senate version of the legislation was considered too strong for Republicans, and the House version was considered too weak by Democrats. President Clinton called it “a bill plainly ghostwritten by the NRA”, and the bill failed .

Virginia Tech

When: April 16, 2007

What happened: Thirty-two were killed and another 17 wounded when Virginia Tech senior Seung-Hui Cho executed two separate attacks on the campus before committing suicide.


What the president [George W Bush] said: “Across the town of Blacksburg and in towns all across America, houses of worship from every faith have opened their doors and have lifted you up in prayer. People who have never met you are praying for you; they’re praying for your friends who have fallen and who are injured. There’s a power in these prayers, real power. In times like this, we can find comfort in the grace and guidance of a loving God. As the Scriptures tell us: ‘Don’t be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.’”

What the pro-gun lobby said: “ Already spineless gun control advocates are squawking like chickens with their tiny-brained heads chopped off, making political hay over this most recent, devastating Virginia Tech massacre, when in fact it is their own forced gun-free zone policy that enabled the unchallenged methodical murder of 32 people” – Pro-gun activist Ted Nugent

What happened: Congress passed , and George W Bush signed, the NICS Improvement Amendments Act, which requires states to automate their lists of convicted criminals and the mentally ill who are prohibited under a 1968 law from buying firearms, and to report those lists to the FBI’s National Instant Criminal Background Check.

Fort Hood

When: November 5, 2009

What happened: Thirteen were killed and another 30 injured when Nidal Malik Hasan, a US army major and psychiatrist, began shooting at the Fort Hood military base. Hasan was convicted of 13 counts of premeditated murder and 32 counts of attempted murder, and is currently on death row.

What the president [Barack Obama] said: “We are a nation of laws whose commitment to justice is so enduring that we would treat a gunman and give him due process, just as surely as we will see that he pays for his crimes. We’re a nation that guarantees the freedom to worship as one chooses. And instead of claiming God for our side, we remember Lincoln’s words, and always pray to be on the side of God. We’re a nation that is dedicated to the proposition that all men and women are created equal.”

What the pro-gun lobby said: “Shouldn’t an army base be the last place where a terrorist should be able to shoot at people uninterrupted for 10 minutes? After all, an army base is filled with soldiers who carry guns, right? Unfortunately, that is not the case. Beginning in March 1993, under the Clinton administration, the army forbids military personnel from carrying their own personal firearms and mandates that ‘a credible and specific threat against [Department of the Army] personnel [exist] in that region’ before military personnel ‘may be authorized to carry firearms for personal protection’. Indeed, most military bases have relatively few military police as they are in heavy demand to serve in Iraq and Afghanistan.” – Opinion piece by Dr John R Lott Jr for Fox News

What happened: The debate in the wake of the Fort Hood shooting rarely centered around gun control, but rather whether the act was an incident of “workplace violence” as it was designated by the Department of Defense, or an act of Islamist terrorism .

Tucson

When: January 8, 2011

What happened: Six people were killed and 13 others were injured, including Arizona congresswoman Gabby Giffords, when Jared Loughner pulled out a pistol at a town hall event Giffords was holding and began firing. Loughner pleaded guilty to 19 charges of murder and attempted murder, and is now serving a life sentence without parole.

What the president [Barack Obama] said: “We cannot and will not be passive in the face of such violence. We should be willing to challenge old assumptions in order to lessen the prospects of such violence in the future. But what we cannot do is use this tragedy as one more occasion to turn on each other. That we cannot do. That we cannot do.

“As we discuss these issues, let each of us do so with a good dose of humility. Rather than pointing fingers or assigning blame, let’s use this occasion to expand our moral imaginations, to listen to each other more carefully, to sharpen our instincts for empathy and remind ourselves of all the ways that our hopes and dreams are bound together …

“If this tragedy prompts reflection and debate – as it should – let’s make sure it’s worthy of those we have lost. Let’s make sure it’s not on the usual plane of politics and point-scoring and pettiness that drifts away in the next news cycle.”

What the pro-gun lobby said: The official NRA Twitter account tweeted a statement sarcastically attributed to Giffords which read : “Gabby Giffords: Everyone Should Have to Pass Background Check My Attacker Passed”.

What happened: New York congressman Peter King proposed legislation banning the carrying of firearms within 1,000ft of certain government officials. New York congresswoman Carolyn McCarthy proposed federal legislation restricting the sale of high-capacity magazines to civilians. Neither proposal ever came to a vote .

Aurora

When: July 20, 2012

What happened: During a midnight screening of the film The Dark Knight Rises in a Colorado cinema, James Holmes set off teargas canisters and began firing into the crowd, killing 12 people and injuring 70.

What the president [Barack Obama] said: “Now, even as we learn how this happened and who’s responsible, we may never understand what leads anybody to terrorize their fellow human beings like this. Such violence, such evil is senseless. It’s beyond reason. But while we will never know fully what causes somebody to take the life of another, we do know what makes life worth living.”

What the pro-gun lobby said: The NRA largely avoided comment after the Aurora shooting, but in late 2013 the NRA Institute for Legal Action took aim at post-Aurora legislation when a shooting occurred at Arapahoe high school in Centennial, Colorado.

An article said: “Gun-control laws didn’t stop a possible massacre at Arapahoe High School. A good guy with a gun stopped the rampage and in doing so almost certainly prevented much greater harm. For that, at least, we all can be thankful.”

What happened: Colorado passed sweeping gun control legislation in 2013 limiting magazine size and strengthening criminal background checks.

Sandy Hook

When: December 14, 2012

What happened: Gunman Adam Lanza killed 20 elementary school students and six school faculty members in an assault on Sandy Hook elementary school in Connecticut, where Lanza’s mother had worked. Lanza also shot and killed his mother before the attack, and killed himself before being apprehended by authorities.

What the president [Barack Obama] said: “As a country, we have been through this too many times. Whether it’s an elementary school in Newtown, or a shopping mall in Oregon, or a temple in Wisconsin, or a movie theater in Aurora, or a street corner in Chicago – these neighborhoods are our neighborhoods, and these children are our children. And we’re going to have to come together and take meaningful action to prevent more tragedies like this, regardless of the politics.

“This evening, Michelle and I will do what I know every parent in America will do, which is hug our children a little tighter and we’ll tell them that we love them, and we’ll remind each other how deeply we love one another. But there are families in Connecticut who cannot do that tonight. And they need all of us right now. In the hard days to come, that community needs us to be at our best as Americans. And I will do everything in my power as president to help.”

What the pro-gun lobby said: “You know, five years ago, after the Virginia Tech tragedy, when I said we should put armed security in every school, the media called me crazy,” NRA executive vice-president Wayne LaPierre said , adding “the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun”.

What happened: The Manchin-Toomey bill, which would would have required criminal and mental health background checks for advertised sales of guns, including at gun shows and online, failed in Congress.

Washington (DC) navy yard

When: September 16, 2013

What happened: Twelve people were killed and another three injured when gunman Aaron Alexis carried out an attack at the Naval Sea Systems Command headquarters at the navy yard. He was killed by police.

What the president [Barack Obama] said: “And so, once again, we remember our fellow Americans who were just going about their day doing their jobs, doing what they loved …

“In the United Kingdom, in Australia, when just a single mass shooting occurred in those countries, they understood that there was nothing ordinary about this kind of carnage. They endured great heartbreak, but they also mobilized and they changed, and mass shootings became a great rarity.

“And yet, here in the United States, after the round-of-clock coverage on cable news, after the heartbreaking interviews with families, after all the speeches and all the punditry and all the commentary, nothing happens …

“No other advanced nation endures this kind of violence – none.”

What the pro-gun lobby said: “There weren’t enough good guys with guns … When the good guys with guns got there it stopped,” NRA president Wayne LaPierre said .

What happened: Defense secretary Chuck Hagel ordered a review of security standards on defense bases, eventually announcing a handful of procedural changes designed to make bases more secure.

Charleston

When: June 17, 2015

What happened: Nine people, including South Carolina state senator Clementa Pinckney, were killed at the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal church, where Pinckney was a pastor. The shooter, Dylan Roof, was captured in North Carolina the following day and awaiting prosecution.

What the president [Barack Obama] said : “But let’s be clear: at some point, we as a country will have to reckon with the fact that this type of mass violence does not happen in other advanced countries. It doesn’t happen in other places with this kind of frequency. And it is in our power to do something about it. I say that recognizing the politics in this town foreclose a lot of those avenues right now. But it would be wrong for us not to acknowledge it. And at some point it’s going to be important for the American people to come to grips with it, and for us to be able to shift how we think about the issue of gun violence collectively.

“The fact that this took place in a black church obviously also raises questions about a dark part of our history. This is not the first time that black churches have been attacked. And we know that hatred across races and faiths pose a particular threat to our democracy and our ideals.”

What the pro-gun lobby said: “Eight of his church members, who might be alive if he had expressly allowed members to carry handguns in church, are dead … Innocent people died because of his political position on the issue.” Charles Cotton, NRA board member, said .

What happened: A month after the shooting President Obama admitted that failure to pass “commonsense gun safety laws” in the US was the greatest frustration of his presidency.

2Will anything change?  No Empty Re: Will anything change? No 7/25/2015, 1:19 pm

Guest


Guest

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/jun/22/barack-obama/barack-obama-correct-mass-killings-dont-happen-oth/

3Will anything change?  No Empty Re: Will anything change? No 7/25/2015, 1:27 pm

Sal

Sal

Yah, it's all an illooosion ....

4Will anything change?  No Empty Re: Will anything change? No 7/25/2015, 2:28 pm

Floridatexan

Floridatexan

Snark Spigot wrote:Yah, it's all an illooosion ....


Bob Barker...LOL. That was great.

5Will anything change?  No Empty Re: Will anything change? No 7/25/2015, 2:51 pm

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

Snark Spigot wrote:Yah, it's all an illooosion ....


It doesn't happen often that someone posts something here to make me completely change my mind on an issue.
But this one did.  I would staunchly support a law which outright bans the individual in that video from ever having a gun,  a knife,  an ice pick, a tire tool,  or any other deadly object.  And the quicker the better.

6Will anything change?  No Empty Re: Will anything change? No 7/25/2015, 3:08 pm

Guest


Guest

The vast majority of gun murders are gang related and happen in the inner cities.

7Will anything change?  No Empty Re: Will anything change? No 7/25/2015, 4:13 pm

TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

Yeah all the shootings seem to occur where there are heavily enforced gun restrictions......maybe progressives should get their heads out of their ass and actually look at facts instead of F e e l i n g s.......

8Will anything change?  No Empty Re: Will anything change? No 7/25/2015, 5:47 pm

2seaoat



Yeah all the shootings seem to occur where there are heavily enforced gun restrictions......maybe progressives should get their heads out of their ass and actually look at facts instead of F e e l i n g s.......

Its a nice sound bite for the NRA, but I am surprised that PK would argue the same.  We played at the Horseshoe Casino which is about a mile over the Chicago/Indiana border and right before the Casino there used to be a gun store.  A person can take a bus to the casino, buy a gun, come back and pick up the gun, and be on the South Side of Chicago in three minutes.  The South Side of Chicago is where most murders in Illinois happen......literally minutes from minimal gun control.   The argument really has little merit but it is the propaganda which the NRA spews.  There are solutions which will have minimal intrusions for lawful gun owners and will isolate illegal gun possession.

9Will anything change?  No Empty Re: Will anything change? No 7/25/2015, 5:57 pm

TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

No not really...easy to say very hard to do....kind of like prohibition....

10Will anything change?  No Empty Re: Will anything change? No 7/25/2015, 5:59 pm

Guest


Guest

Chicago: http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/2378073

Chicago's McCarthy said the city's high murder rate,up 18 percent over last year as of Dec. 16,was due to gang violence. Eighty percent of the homicides were gang-related and 80 percent of the victims were African-Americans,he said.

Blacks make up about 33 percent of the city's population, according to the 2011 estimate from the U.S. Census.

11Will anything change?  No Empty Re: Will anything change? No 7/25/2015, 6:29 pm

2seaoat



I agree totally that the murders are entirely with few exceptions related to drugs, gangs, and prohibition.  The idea that gun control with simple registration forms, biometric triggers and bright colored carry holsters (open carry) will do nothing to stop gang activity......I think you are right.  The gang and drug problem has a simple solution.....decriminalize.  The gun violence in America has another solution, non will be perfect.  People are still dying in auto crashes, but we have greatly reduced the same.  This is not that difficult, but like getting out of the Middle East and cutting our military spending, ending the drug war will be harder than getting out of the middle east, and gun control standards....well as long as special interest can buy Congress to have us go to war with Iran......I am not hopeful that common sense gun control will get anywhere.

12Will anything change?  No Empty Re: Will anything change? No 7/25/2015, 7:37 pm

Markle

Markle

2seaoat wrote:I agree totally that the murders are entirely with few exceptions related to drugs, gangs, and prohibition.  The idea that gun control with simple registration forms, biometric triggers and bright colored carry holsters (open carry) will do nothing to stop gang activity......I think you are right.  The gang and drug problem has a simple solution.....decriminalize.  The gun violence in America has another solution, non will be perfect.  People are still dying in auto crashes, but we have greatly reduced the same.  This is not that difficult, but like getting out of the Middle East and cutting our military spending, ending the drug war will be harder than getting out of the middle east, and gun control standards....well as long as special interest can buy Congress to have us go to war with Iran......I am not hopeful that common sense gun control will get anywhere.

Will anything change?  No SpecialkindofStupid

13Will anything change?  No Empty Re: Will anything change? No 7/25/2015, 9:31 pm

Guest


Guest

Seagoat is under some sort of delusion that decriminalizing drugs will magically disband gangs... as if the mafia didn't exist before or after prohibition. If there is a lesson to be learned perhaps it's the focus that was eventually required to diminish their reach.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Mafia

14Will anything change?  No Empty Re: Will anything change? No 7/25/2015, 11:36 pm

Markle

Markle

PkrBum wrote:Seagoat is under some sort of delusion that  decriminalizing drugs will magically disband gangs... as if the mafia didn't exist before or after prohibition. If there is a lesson to be learned perhaps it's the focus that was eventually required to diminish their reach.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Mafia

He doesn't actually believe all this nonsense he posts, he just enjoys the turmoil he creates.

The Netherlands and, in particular Amsterdam once had the most liberal laws concerning, supposedly, victimless crimes. Prostitution and drugs. Now they are clamping down, eliminating "coffee shops" and prostitution.

Why? Because along with all the perverts and druggies, they found that a "bad element" had also moved into the areas.

Now WHO could have imagined such a thing?

15Will anything change?  No Empty Re: Will anything change? No 7/25/2015, 11:59 pm

Guest


Guest

Well... prohibitions and progressive societal controls aren't the answer either. There's nothing wrong with private interests making demands as you may choose to work for them or not... but using the force of govt to enforce your subjective beliefs is tyranny. I don't care if it comes from you thinking you know what's best for society or it comes from your invisible friend... it's wrong in a once free country. What I don't think all of you progressive control freaks appreciate is that each concession of govt control builds upon the last... and sooner rather than later we're left with an authoritarian central govt that controls every aspect of our lives and can even gather information on us at will.

Congratulations comrade markle.

16Will anything change?  No Empty Re: Will anything change? No 7/26/2015, 9:00 am

nadalfan



What is your solution to gun violence, all types? What are your ideas for protecting the rights of gun owners, and for that matter, the rights of all law abiding Americans, while preventing criminals and mentally ill people from getting guns?

Do you believe someone having a gun in that dark movie theater would have prevented the deaths of those two ladies or do you think there is the possibility that shooting in the dark could have led to more innocent lives being taken?

Should we invest more in mental illness treatment, domestic violence prevention, or programs that address gang violence and crime, etc?

Or, are my questions irrelevant because you believe we must just accept that this is life in America, that as a society we aren't better than this, that this is who we are (random shootings in schools, theaters, workplaces, etc, gang violence, domestic violence, suicide)? Does this belief also include accepting radicalized US citizens that decide to shoot up other Americans?

I'm not suggesting any specific solutions, I am asking what yours are?

17Will anything change?  No Empty Re: Will anything change? No 7/26/2015, 9:15 am

Guest


Guest

If you want to fix gun murders... go to where the vast majority take place and to the people committing them.

I think I've made myself clear.

18Will anything change?  No Empty Re: Will anything change? No 7/26/2015, 9:25 am

nadalfan



PkrBum wrote:If you want to fix gun murders... go to where the vast majority take place and to the people committing them.

I think I've made myself clear.

that's pretty vague, so go there and do what?

what about my other questions?

19Will anything change?  No Empty Re: Will anything change? No 7/26/2015, 9:42 am

Guest


Guest

I've already layed out what a progressive govt solution would be. It's not my preference... but it would work.

As for the theater... would you have preferred to have had a gun while that mentally defective shot the place up?

20Will anything change?  No Empty Re: Will anything change? No 7/26/2015, 11:21 am

nadalfan



PkrBum wrote:I've already layed out what a progressive govt solution would be. It's not my preference... but it would work.

I must have missed that

As for the theater... would you have preferred to have had a gun while that mentally defective shot the place up?

When I stand up and shoot the bad guy, how do other gun carrying individuals know I'm not with the bad guy, and how do those others know that all those prepared to shoot the bad guy are not bad guys, and on and on...remember all this is happening in a dark theater with a lot of people running and screaming trying to get the hell out of there? All this happening amid fear of terrorist sympathizers attacking Americans at home? What could go possibly go wrong, right?

21Will anything change?  No Empty Re: Will anything change? No 7/26/2015, 11:38 am

TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

guess you might call it overkill
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/25/nypd-shooting-bystander-victims-hit-by-police-gunfire/

NYPD: 9 shooting bystander victims hit by police gunfire

NEW YORK –  All nine people wounded during a dramatic confrontation between police and a gunman outside the Empire State Building were struck by bullets fired by the two officers, police said Saturday, citing ballistics evidence.

The veteran patrolmen who opened fire on the suit-wearing gunman, Jeffrey Johnson, had only an instant to react when he whirled and pointed a .45-caliber pistol as they approached him from behind on a busy sidewalk.

22Will anything change?  No Empty Re: Will anything change? No 7/26/2015, 11:42 am

Guest


Guest

A theater is not pitch black... and if you prefer to be defenseless that is certainly your right. I don't carry a gun either.

The progressive govt solution would be to go exactly where the vast majority of gun murders take place.

Roll tanks down the streets... send troops door to door... place snipers on roof tops. Problem solved.

Instead... we hear criticism that there are too many police in those places and that their tactics are discriminatory.

Oh... and that removing guns from law abiding citizens will fix the problem. That's a logical fallacy.

Do you really want the problem solved? Or have you just bought into an agenda? I say shit happens... that's nature.

Crime and violent crime is already diminishing and will continue to as society becomes more and more educated.

A large part of the problem in inner cities is a lack of emphasis on education and a glorification of thug life.

23Will anything change?  No Empty Re: Will anything change? No 7/26/2015, 12:51 pm

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

Question.  

Let's get specific for a change.  Which specific "gun control" measure(s) being proposed would have stopped the Lafayette shooter or the Charleston shooter?
Can anyone here give us an answer on that?

24Will anything change?  No Empty Re: Will anything change? No 7/26/2015, 12:54 pm

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

Here's the list. Pick out the one(s) which woulda done it...

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/01/16/us/obama-gun-control-proposal.html?_r=0

25Will anything change?  No Empty Re: Will anything change? No 7/26/2015, 1:09 pm

Guest


Guest

" It is unclear whether officials in Georgia filed records about Houser's involuntary hospitalization, which would have been funneled to the FBI's database and therefore surfaced during a background check in any state, according to The Associated Press.

"Obviously somebody with this kind of history should have never been able to buy a gun," Jindal said, noting that Louisiana laws would have prevented Houser from legally buying a gun."

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