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Pensacola Discussion Forum » Politics » Don't overlook something about the latest mass murder.

Don't overlook something about the latest mass murder.

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2seaoat
othershoe1030
Wordslinger
Markle
TEOTWAWKI
Hospital Bob
10 posters

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Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

It's just remarkable that, to a person, all the closest loved ones of all the victims have expressed forgiveness for the killer.

Yes obviously this comes from their religious teaching. And if it was my loved one, forgiveness is the very last thing I would ever be feeling. Quite the exact opposite is what I would be feeling.

BUT, when it comes to this, what I think has no value whatever for the very reason that I'm not the one having to go through this experience. They are.
So that compels me to respect what they're feeling regardless of what I would feel.


Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

just one example...

"I will never be able to hold her again, but I forgive you," a daughter of Ethel Lance said. "And have mercy on your soul. You hurt me. You hurt a lot of people, but God forgives you, and I forgive you."

TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

Yes that's the same way the Amish were when their school children were killed very forgiving very loving good Christian examples.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

Not me.  
I may be able to learn to live with it over time.
But if that was my mother or daughter or wife "I could never be able to hold again",  I have no reason of any kind to forgive that.  And especially when the perp had no reason to make it happen.
Moses or Jesus themselves could appear in front of me out of thin air and tell me this is the human reaction to have,  and it wouldn't matter.  It goes against every instinct and ability to reason I possess.
Nothing scribbled in any book will ever trump that for me.

TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

That's the difference Bob...it's not written in a book for them it's written on their hearts...

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

TEOTWAWKI wrote:That's the difference Bob...it's not written in a book for them it's written on their hearts...

They weren't born with that or anything else on their hearts,  teo.  It came after that.  If you grew up in a Christian world,  what got written on your heart came from what's written in that book.
But if you lived in another part of the world,  what got written on your heart came from what's written in the Quran.
And beyond that,  the same applies to all who grew up with a hundred other religious texts.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

When anything like this happens, the most important consideration is how to try to prevent it from happening again. At least it is for a rational society.

I can't for the life of me see how forgiving it would ever help accomplish that.
It makes me think about all the school bullies who people cowtowed to.
The ONLY thing that ever put a stop to that was surely not "forgiveness".
It was not cowtowing to it.

TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

Teaching can get inside you Bob. It can remain on your heart.  Most believe this world isn't their home...it's just a test for eternity.

Don't overlook something about the latest mass murder. 629789fc2f

Markle

Markle

Bob wrote:Not me.  
I may be able to learn to live with it over time.
But if that was my mother or daughter or wife "I could never be able to hold again",  I have no reason of any kind to forgive that.  And especially when the perp had no reason to make it happen.
Moses or Jesus themselves could appear in front of me out of thin air and tell me this is the human reaction to have,  and it wouldn't matter.  It goes against every instinct and ability to reason I possess.
Nothing scribbled in any book will ever trump that for me.

Which simply goes to prove that true Christians are better people.

The same holds true of my resident good friend, self proclaimed Socialist/Communist and Heathen, Wordslinger.

The people of that church and South Carolina are teaching the Nation a lesson. I hope and pray that enough people are wise enough to watch, listen and LEARN.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

Markle wrote:
Bob wrote:Not me.  
I may be able to learn to live with it over time.
But if that was my mother or daughter or wife "I could never be able to hold again",  I have no reason of any kind to forgive that.  And especially when the perp had no reason to make it happen.
Moses or Jesus themselves could appear in front of me out of thin air and tell me this is the human reaction to have,  and it wouldn't matter.  It goes against every instinct and ability to reason I possess.
Nothing scribbled in any book will ever trump that for me.

Which simply goes to prove that true Christians are better people.


Do you forgive Obama,  Markle?  And how about Saul Alinsky?  And Cloward and Piven? Do you forgive them too? And Fidel Castro?  And Karl Marx and Saddam Hussein?  And Osama Bin Laden and Sheik Mohammed?  Surely you forgive all these people don't you?   lol

Wordslinger

Wordslinger

Markle wrote:
Bob wrote:Not me.  
I may be able to learn to live with it over time.
But if that was my mother or daughter or wife "I could never be able to hold again",  I have no reason of any kind to forgive that.  And especially when the perp had no reason to make it happen.
Moses or Jesus themselves could appear in front of me out of thin air and tell me this is the human reaction to have,  and it wouldn't matter.  It goes against every instinct and ability to reason I possess.
Nothing scribbled in any book will ever trump that for me.

Which simply goes to prove that true Christians are better people.

The same holds true of my resident good friend, self proclaimed Socialist/Communist and Heathen, Wordslinger.

The people of that church and South Carolina are teaching the Nation a lesson.  I hope and pray that enough people are wise enough to watch, listen and LEARN.

The Christian families of the slaughtered church-goers in Charleston are victims of white racism, as practiced by a white Christian conservative, driven to his irrational, bloody action, by foaming-at-the-mouth FOX News pundits, survivalists, and white supremacists certain their country has already fallen to the hoards of the unwashed .... etc. etc. etc. Dillon Storm Roof was on his mission from Jesus to help straighten it all out.

Some Christians are very good, and some aren't.

othershoe1030

othershoe1030

Bob wrote:It's just remarkable that,  to a person,  all the closest loved ones of all the victims have expressed forgiveness for the killer.

Yes obviously this comes from their religious teaching.  And if it was my loved one,  forgiveness is the very last thing I would ever be feeling.  Quite the exact opposite is what I would be feeling.

BUT,  when it comes to this,  what I think has no value whatever for the very reason that I'm not the one having to go through this experience.  They are.
So that compels me to respect what they're feeling regardless of what I would feel.  



I too am completely overwhelmed by the statements these family members made of forgiving the shooter. It is nearly beyond my human ability to comprehend their actions. This is not the first time we've seen statements of forgiveness made by black victims families either. It happens over and over, unfortunately it is necessary over and over.

If this were the prevailing face of Christianity in this country I would be proud and humble to be associated with it but unfortunately for our country, the "Christian religion", like "Patriotism" has been hi-jacked by the damnable right wing propagandists and turned both to their advantage, scooping up the unthinking into following paths that I do not think constitute either Christianity or patriotism.

2seaoat



On March 21, 1861, Stephens gave his famous Cornerstone Speech in Savannah, Georgia. In it he declared that slavery was the natural condition of blacks and the foundation of the Confederacy. He declared, "Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal conditiion.


The State of South Carolina first flew the flag of hate in 1962 over the state capitol when the civil rights movement was finally bringing equality to residents of that state.......and during the entire history of the South, the black church has been sanctuary from the hate, and the peaceful non violent response of the christian church has been the centerpiece of the civil rights movement.....so please do not tell me about how good the people of South Carolina have been......Butchmeup telling us the flag of Hate must remain on State property at the capitol, and our dog whistle politics are really concerned about the equality of black people who know their place and by golly these folks are forgiving the perp.......no take the flag down and quit changing the subject....quit attacking PC.....the flag is an abomination.....and yes people die because of its hate symbolism.



Sal

Sal

Hatred and resentments are forms of slavery and prisons.

Forgiveness is freedom and liberation from hated and resentments.

Through their religion, these people have been blessed with the grace and divinity of understanding these metaphysical fundamentals.

It is remarkable to see it put into practice.

othershoe1030

othershoe1030

Sal wrote:Hatred and resentments are forms of slavery and prisons.

Forgiveness is freedom and liberation from hated and resentments.  

Through their religion, these people have been blessed with the grace and divinity of understanding these metaphysical fundamentals.

It is remarkable to see it put into practice.

Very well put. Yes it is through grace. It is inspiring.

2seaoat



And when each of these people who have shown grace ask to take the hateful flag down from state property at the capitol.....what does their grace get them.........what did grace get the man shot less than a couple of miles while running away from the police officer.  Even in this time when a tragedy exposes the ugly truth of racism in America, we want to change the subject.....we want to pretend.......we want to be like T or Rick Perry and call this an accident......As a Christian I absolutely believe in foregiving, but lets first STOP that which we are about to forgive.

Sal

Sal

To be free, forgiveness must be unconditional.

It's tough and counterintuitive, but these people understand it's the only way.

TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

Sal wrote:To be free, forgiveness must be unconditional.

It's tough and counterintuitive, but these people understand it's the only way.

Totally alien to you huh?

Sal

Sal

TEOTWAWKI wrote:
Sal wrote:To be free, forgiveness must be unconditional.

It's tough and counterintuitive, but these people understand it's the only way.

Totally alien to you huh?

Obviously.

2seaoat



Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result because we show grace.....sorry, lets not change the subject.....what if it was the swastika flying on state property which stood for the superiority of one race over the other, but some argued that it was after the fact a symbol of heritage.  Let us not change the subject.  It is about Race relations in this country, and when a hateful symbol is protected by the likes of Butchmeup who denies its total meaning and the continued hateful conclusion that the black man is an inferior race, then you can keep doing the same thing over and over and have the racist calling this an accident, and two weeks from now forget this horrific event, or we can stop the insanity and once and for all in this country realize the confederacy was about racial inequality which 150 years later still pretends with dog whistles that some hold this tenet of hate dear to their hearts which is fine, but governments and people elected to office must stop the hate NOW.....no more changing the subject....we need the courage today to make real change and tear down the symbols of hate, and realize PC and civility are not to be sarcastically disrespected as Bob did in a thread before this event.....It simply must STOP.

Guest


Guest

Leftists constantly change the definition and meaning of things. I doubt that flag means what you think to most.

When only you can hear that dog whistle... there may not be a dog whistle. This lady must be related to you.

"The following is a list of the alleged hate crimes Rachel Dolezal reported, compiled from police reports in Couer D'Alane, Idaho and Spokane, Washington. Investigators were never able to verify her claims.

• September 21, 2009: Dolezal, then working as a staffer at the Human Rights Education Institute in Couer d'Alane, reports finding a noose on her front porch at the Spokane home she shares with a live-in boyfriend. She identifies herself as African American, is very concerned about her welfare, and "has been harassed by white supremicists in the past." No arrests were made in the case.

• Nov 19, 2009: Dolezal files a report on behalf of the Human Rights Education Institute in Couer d'Alane, where she worked. She claims she discovered a swastika sticker on the institute's door. Security cameras had malfunctioned at the time the swastika was placed, according to the police report.

• Sept. 3, 2010: Dolezal files a malicious injury report about a July incident in Couer d'Alane, when she allegedly found a palm-size dent on the front passenger panel.

• April 11, 2010: Dolezal files a report for harassing phone calls in Couer d'Alane. Dolezal claims to have received a vulgar phone call from a female student at North Idaho College. The prosecuting attorney's office declined to prosecute the case because they did not find sufficient evidence of phone harassment.

• June 15, 2010: Dolezal files a harassment report of a noose hanging in her carport behind her rented Coeur d'Alene home. In August of the same year, a detective files a supplemental report stating that in an effort to find potential witnesses who might have seen someone hang the rope, he contact's the home's owner, Randy Bell.

"He told me that he was 90 percent sure it was rope he hung there approximately (one year before the report)," the officer writes in the report. "He said he hung a deer up there and he believes the rope is from that time."

Bell told police that he told Dolezal he was the one who had hung the rope in the rafters.

"I asked him when he gave Rachel the information that he was the one who may have hung the rope up there, and he said sometime around the time she filed the report," the police report states. "Randy was sympathetic to Rachel's concerns about the rope but he felt he may be the one who hung the rope up there."

The detective called Dolezal on Aug. 25, 2010 and left her a message to call him about the incident. He did not receive a return call from Dolezal. The case was closed Aug. 26, 2010.

• Feb. 25, 2015: Dolezal, then president of the Spokane NAACP, reports to Spokane police of receiving an envelope in the NAACP post office box containing an 18-page letter filled with harassing statements and images aimed at her. The envelope is not postmarked and Dolezal is the only person known to have a key to the P.O. box.

Dolezal reports receiving another letter from the same sender in May and postmarked Oakland, California. After an extensive investigation involving the U.S. Postal Service, the Spokane Police, the F.B.I. and a DNA matching effort, the case was suspended June 10 due to lack of evidence.

• Feb. 26, 2015: Dolezal reports her son was called a racial slur and was chased into a Spokane store. After an investigation, witnesses said no racial slur was made and that he walked casually into the store to buy candy. The case was closed March 23.

• April 13: Two people mistakenly walked into Dolezal's unlocked house because they were lost. Dolezal claims the two people attempted a home invasion, and she felt harassed. But her son, home at the time, told police he wasn't scared.

"They seemed like normal, middle-class white people," he told police, noting the couple took the time to try and catch the family cat, which had escaped into a neighbor's yard. Police were unable to identify the two people and determine what their intent was. The case was suspended April 27."

othershoe1030

othershoe1030

Bob wrote:It's just remarkable that,  to a person,  all the closest loved ones of all the victims have expressed forgiveness for the killer.

Yes obviously this comes from their religious teaching.  And if it was my loved one,  forgiveness is the very last thing I would ever be feeling.  Quite the exact opposite is what I would be feeling.

BUT,  when it comes to this,  what I think has no value whatever for the very reason that I'm not the one having to go through this experience.  They are.
So that compels me to respect what they're feeling regardless of what I would feel.  



It is easy to understand on an intellectual level that responding to a hateful act with another hateful act (see the Middle East) just makes the situation worse. To end the cycle hate must be answered by love.

It is one thing to understand this in our minds and another matter entirely to actually act on it on a very emotional level when you've been the one wronged. I have to admire these people, the relatives and loved ones of the victims of this shooting. They are an inspiration and such a wonderful example.

Markle

Markle

Bob wrote:
Markle wrote:
Bob wrote:Not me.  
I may be able to learn to live with it over time.
But if that was my mother or daughter or wife "I could never be able to hold again",  I have no reason of any kind to forgive that.  And especially when the perp had no reason to make it happen.
Moses or Jesus themselves could appear in front of me out of thin air and tell me this is the human reaction to have,  and it wouldn't matter.  It goes against every instinct and ability to reason I possess.
Nothing scribbled in any book will ever trump that for me.

Which simply goes to prove that true Christians are better people.


Do you forgive Obama,  Markle?  And how about Saul Alinsky?  And Cloward and Piven?  Do you forgive them too? And Fidel Castro?  And Karl Marx and Saddam Hussein?  And Osama Bin Laden and Sheik Mohammed?  Surely you forgive all these people don't you?   lol

How do you draw any correlation between what the shooter did in SC to those loved ones and the people you list? I don't hate any of them. I hate what they have done and are doing to our country. For that, none of them have done anything to me personally which would merit my forgiveness.

Markle

Markle

othershoe1030 wrote:
Bob wrote:It's just remarkable that,  to a person,  all the closest loved ones of all the victims have expressed forgiveness for the killer.

Yes obviously this comes from their religious teaching.  And if it was my loved one,  forgiveness is the very last thing I would ever be feeling.  Quite the exact opposite is what I would be feeling.

BUT,  when it comes to this,  what I think has no value whatever for the very reason that I'm not the one having to go through this experience.  They are.
So that compels me to respect what they're feeling regardless of what I would feel.  


It is easy to understand on an intellectual level that responding to a hateful act with another hateful act (see the Middle East) just makes the situation worse. To end the cycle hate must be answered by love.

It is one thing to understand this in our minds and another matter entirely to actually act on it on a very emotional level when you've been the one wronged. I have to admire these people, the relatives and loved ones of the victims of this shooting. They are an inspiration and such a wonderful example.

Comparing this with the Middle East is simply foolish.

A far better comparison is Ferguson, Missouri.

EmeraldGhost

EmeraldGhost

This really had nothing to do with racism or religion.

Dylan Roof was f*cked up because


  • He was a loser ... couldn't get a decent job, low education, crappy friends. Took up the white supremacy banner in order to have some sort of group-identification, to feel like he had some power in/over his life (which he didn't/)

  • He didn't do well with girls, didn't have a girlfriend .. probably never had a girlfriend, probably a virgin (heterosexually)

  • He was raised by a single mother with a lot of conflict between his divorced parents.  No positive father-figure/role model.  His dad is probably a racist lout ... maybe an abusive drunk.   His mother may be an alkie as well.   His mother probably demeaned his father to him for years.  He was a mamma's boy for a long time ... just cut the apron-strings in the past couple of years.

  • He was probabably "diagnosed" ADD when younger .... on Ritalin, Adderal, SSRI's, psychotropics, etc during much of his school years ... graduated to illegal prescription pill-popping.

  • He probably hung around black guys more than you know .... drug dealers, hip-hop culture.  Probably obtained a lot or all of his drugs from blacks.   Probably resentful at how aggressive black guys could get the girls black & white, while he couldn't attract the attention of even one.  Probably tried & failed at being a "wigger" so decided to go the other direction (white supremacist)

  • Probably had some homosexual encounters of which he is deeply ashamed, probably with a black person .... maybe while he was drunk or even to the point of semi-concious ....  maybe even secretly enjoyed it too, thus furthering his angst/internal-conflict about black people.



Just my 2 cents.

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