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The entire Mideast conflict is Saudi Arabia vs. Iran

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KarlRove
2seaoat
othershoe1030
Wordslinger
8 posters

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Wordslinger

Wordslinger

al Qaeda. Isis. Boko Haram, Syria, Iraq, Libya, Yemen, Somalia.


It's all such a political mess UNTIL you realize the driving forces behind all the factions are Saudi Arabia leading the Sunnis, and Iran leading the Shiias.  And it's been this way for decades.


At the end of WWI the western nations created the countries of today's Mideast, creating artificial borders that have never been accepted by the Sunni and Shiia tribes. 



And, as usual, the foreign policy of the United States has been to ignore the religious animosity that drives the region, in pursuit of our "national interests," -- meaning oil. 



In 1947 the Israeli nation was forced on both the Sunnis and Shiias, adding more intensity to the conflict.  The Arab-Israeli wars, which at times drove the Sunnis and Shiias together to face a common enemy, never truly eradicated the religious-based strife of the two most powerful opponents.


Saddam's Iraq was run by Sunnis, whose leadership calls Saudi Arabia home.  Iraq's ruling Sunnis were a minority exerting oppressive power over the majority of Shiias.



The long and costly war between Iran and Iraq was a religious war.  One in which we supported Saddam and the Sunnis.  That fact alone could explain Iran's distrust for the country their leaders refer to as "The Great Satan."



Then, with logic derived from batshit crazy neocons like Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Bremer, the United States invades Iraq, overthrows Saddam, displaces or exiles all the Sunnis who had been running the civil government and the military forces of Iraq, and instals a puppet Shiia President and government who, from the start, were faithful to Iran's leaders. 



The Sunnis, led by Saddam's former generals and officer corps, become the "insurgents" who, logically, attack Maliki and his protectors, the good old, totally confused and misdirected USA. 



Are you following this?  By overthrowing Saddam we gave immeasurable aid to Iran, WE made them the dominant power in the region.  And at the same time, we pretended to respect and adore the Saudis.


Bin Ladin was Sunni.  So is Isis. So is Boko Haram.


We're now helping Iranian military forces who have joined disparate Shiia groups to try and defeat Isis.


At the same time, we're helping our Saudi brothers bomb Shiia terrorists in Yemen.  And, in response, Iran's leaders are warning the Saudis that if they invade Yemen, Iran WILL respond.


And while we're helping the Saudis in Yemen, we're trying to get a non-proliferation nuclear treaty with Iran, whose forces we're helping in Iraq.


Obviously, our foreign policy has been wrong from the start and continues to ignore the dominant religious and political conflicts that have historically ruled the Mideast.  The United States, it would seem, with its incredible arrogance, believes that we can talk or force the two primary players in the Mideast drama to "get along" and reap the bounty of peace. 



And thru all of this, we remain as Israel's principal defenders.


The conflict between Pakistan and India is based upon religious viewpoints.



The answer, of course, and the one person who can truly solve all of the Mideast's whirling conflicts, is Ted Cruz. 



Reality?

othershoe1030

othershoe1030

The situation described is really mind blowing and didn't even mention Afghanistan. I am trying to get a grip on the Sunni/Shiia set up, I manage to remember that Iraq was governed by Sunnis under Saddam and that the majority of Iraqi's are Shiia. After that things get murky, lol.

How far back does our strange relationship go in that region? How much of a change could the present administration have accomplished if they had wanted to? How much were we basically stuck with?

Now with Iran and Saudi Arabia are coming more clearly into the fight there seem to be only the usual poor to horrible scenarios looming. How do you see this going?

2seaoat



There are more complexities, but the beauty of shaking up the old colonial structure is that maybe we are on the road to real democracy in the middle east.......we must be sophisticated and not a simpleton in our role in diplomacy. The unrest will not magically stop this decade but needs much more evolution and modernity will ultimately prevail......we cannot be on the wrong side of modernity.

The biggest tell in the whole ISIS boogie man stage was the failure of ISIS to attack Israel when they are only a few miles from the so called devil.......this entire conflict is being backed by those who have repeatedly tried to create hot wars which give MIC a payday, and kills American kids as we flush our wealth down a bottomless pit, and prop up corrupt and greedy Oligarchies who oppose real democratic changes for the average Middle East citizen. I think the region has a tremendous upside if America continues on the course we have been following the past six years.......truth and real change can occur without American bankruptcy and horrible carnage as we offer more of our children as sacrifice to keep our Oligarchies flush in oil and money.

Wordslinger

Wordslinger

You both make good points.  However, it's clear that our decades of supporting tyrannical despots in order to secure their support in relation to the resources we want to acquire has reached payback stage.  The people we've helped to oppress with our money, military training and weapons are now openly opposing our "allies" and us too. 

In order to form any strategy for long-term improvement, you must factor in our history of colonialism in the region, the introduction of the State of Israel, the power of oil, and the age-old battle between the Sunnis and Shiites. 

Although our government has consistently shown a reticence to regard the citizenry of any Mideastern or African country has having any value or power in our policy making, the times they are a changin'.  Mao was right, of course.  Ultimate power is with the people, not their leaders.

Based primarily on a platform of assumed white Christian superiority, why we've failed to inspire the black, brown or yellow people of a single third world  nation needs to be studied. 

We can keep acquiring and supporting our favored Kings, Shahs, Emperors, Sheiks, of the moment, and never cure the problem of causing millions of oppressed people to hate us, or we can begin to practice our real American democratic values and help the oppressed everywhere to achieve representative government, no matter their color or creed.

But that approach is far too rational for America's government which is controlled by corporate interests.

The solution to our relations with the Mideast requires an even-handed, respectful approach and a continuing expression of genuine concern for the welfare of the people and religions of the region.

Obviously, this is far beyond the capabilities of a country where 1% own more than 50% of the wealth, and where campaign financing dictates political realities.

othershoe1030

othershoe1030

No doubt business interests have often been conflated with our "national interests" as we supported those in power who could insure stability. Investors hate turmoil. Democracy can be messy but also creative and freeing.

When the leader is deposed it seems as if the vacuum is filled by the group with the most pickup trucks and assault weapons. The history of governance in this part of the world leans toward tribes and patriarchy of one sort or another, clans etc. It would take a major cultural shift by a majority of people to shift from what is basically gang rule.

Doesn't there need to be an emphasis on education and more equality for women before something resembling a democracy can take root? For all practical purposes a benevolent queen or king would be preferred over glorified street gangs of boys with guns and trucks. Democracy might be the ideal but it looks like a leap too far for an area run by religious zealots who think books and education are evil.  

KarlRove

KarlRove

As long as there are two Muslims, there will be a fight.

You forgot to add that Obama screwed the pooch in Libya and Syria too.

2seaoat



You forgot to add that Obama screwed the pooch in Libya and Syria too.


What should America's foreign relation goals have been in those two countries, and what would you have done to achieve those goals which were different from this administration?

Floridatexan

Floridatexan


The equation is not complete without considering Israel...and their alliance with the Saudis.

Markle

Markle

As we all know, the Middle East blaze is due in whole to semi-retired President Obama's sole decision to withdraw all our troops from Iraq rather than leaving a residual force to maintain the peace and order.

KarlRove

KarlRove

[quote="2seaoat"]You forgot to add that Obama screwed the pooch in Libya and Syria too.


What should America's foreign relation goals have been in those two countries, and what would you have done to achieve those goals which were different from this administration?[/quote

How about stay the hell out?

Wordslinger

Wordslinger

KarlRove wrote:
2seaoat wrote:You forgot to add that Obama screwed the pooch in Libya and Syria too.


What should America's foreign relation goals have been in those two countries, and what would you have done to achieve those goals which were different from this administration?[/quote

How about stay the hell out?


What you state is also applicable for Iraq and Afghanistan.

ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

Markle wrote:As we all know, the Middle East blaze is due in whole to semi-retired President Obama's sole decision to withdraw all our troops from Iraq rather than leaving a residual force to maintain the peace and order.

The entire Mideast conflict is Saudi Arabia vs. Iran Yeah_r10

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KarlRove

KarlRove

And it is obvious that Obama has helped to surround the Sunni House of Saud with Shia and Shia puppets. That's a reason why SA didn't tell us one iota that they were going in to Yemen.

2seaoat



As we all know, the Middle East blaze is due in whole to semi-retired President Obama's sole decision to withdraw all our troops from Iraq rather than leaving a residual force to maintain the peace and order.


So your theory is that if we had kept 100k Americans in Iraq there would be peace and order. That sounds as logical as invading Iraq will minimize terrorist attacks against America and stop threats in the Middle East.

America the occupation army.....America the protector of Colonial dictatorships......America the protector of Saudi Arabia the money folks behind Al Queda and ISIS.....America, where their children's blood and wealth is less than Israeli children's blood and wealth.....America the world's policeman......where we spend close to a trillion a year making money for our oligarchy........did it ever occur to you that Americans are not that stupid.

ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

2seaoat wrote:......did it ever occur to you that Americans are not that stupid.

Rephrase that statement to read: "...did it ever occur to you that Americans are not as stupid as you are..."

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othershoe1030

othershoe1030

It is just too darn bad that human nature is as it is and that the tribes and various groups just have a history of not getting along. With thousands of years of this tradition it is not unexpected that there is ongoing conflict.

Without getting into the blame game of our less than perfect foreign policies (going back 100 years) it is not without a small amount of relief that I see countries other than ours fighting to defend something that they feel is worth fighting for. Why we have to hold everyone's hand by sending our kids over there to fight their battles I do not know (other than we want our thumb on the scale).

In the current battles I just hope it remains a proxy war without Iran and Saudi Arabia going at each other one on one.

I feel sorry for the civilians, the families that are displaced and the children who are not able to go to school. If we were able to create a peace through diplomacy that would facilitate a political solution that would be ideal...to stop the warfare.

Sal

Sal

The entire Mideast conflict is Saudi Arabia vs. Iran Tt150325

Wordslinger

Wordslinger

KarlRove wrote:And it is obvious that Obama has helped to surround the Sunni House of Saud with Shia and Shia puppets. That's a reason why SA didn't tell us one iota that they were going in to Yemen.


Once again, you blow all your credibility as a War Hero who's served in the Mideast.

"That's a reason why SA didn't tell us one iota they were going into Yemen," you wrote.  SA's air attacks on Houthi forces are being re-fueled by USAF air tankers.  This fact has been shown on numerous TV news shows. 

Tell us again how you won your medals ...

LOL

KarlRove

KarlRove

Wordslinger wrote:
KarlRove wrote:And it is obvious that Obama has helped to surround the Sunni House of Saud with Shia and Shia puppets. That's a reason why SA didn't tell us one iota that they were going in to Yemen.


Once again, you blow all your credibility as a War Hero who's served in the Mideast.

"That's a reason why SA didn't tell us one iota they were going into Yemen," you wrote.  SA's air attacks on Houthi forces are being re-fueled by USAF air tankers.  This fact has been shown on numerous TV news shows. 

Tell us again how you won your medals ...

LOL

Your messiah brought on that SA and Israel alliance by alienating the Sunnis with his arrogance and inability to comprehend the situation. You reap what you sow atheist man.

Wordslinger

Wordslinger

KarlRove wrote:
Wordslinger wrote:
KarlRove wrote:And it is obvious that Obama has helped to surround the Sunni House of Saud with Shia and Shia puppets. That's a reason why SA didn't tell us one iota that they were going in to Yemen.


Once again, you blow all your credibility as a War Hero who's served in the Mideast.

"That's a reason why SA didn't tell us one iota they were going into Yemen," you wrote.  SA's air attacks on Houthi forces are being re-fueled by USAF air tankers.  This fact has been shown on numerous TV news shows. 

Tell us again how you won your medals ...

LOL

Your messiah brought on that SA and Israel alliance by alienating the Sunnis with his arrogance and inability to comprehend the situation. You reap what you sow atheist man.


The U.S. is helping the Saudis against the Houthis in Yemen.  If Israel is helping the same alliance. great.  However, my President is also helping Irans forces fighting ISIS in Iraq.


And while this may be and probably is beyond your limited comprehension, Atheists don't have Messiahs.  That's your witchdoctor thing, not mine. 

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