Gifted student program cut..too many white kids in it.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jan/30/nyc-school-cuts-popular-gifted-program-over-lack-d/


A popular gifted-student program at a New York City elementary school is getting the ax after school officials decided it lacked diversity.

PS 139 Principal Mary McDonald told parents in a letter Jan. 24 that Students of Academic Rigor, or SOAR, would no longer accept applications for incoming kindergartners, the New York Daily Newsreported.

“Our Kindergarten classes will be heterogeneously grouped to reflect the diversity of our student body and the community we live in,” Miss McDonald said in the letter posted on Flickr.com.

At least one parent described SOAR as largely white, while others disagreed, the report said.

One mother conceded the program did have a lot of white students, but worried gifted students now won’t be challenged enough.

Both my kids were in "gifted" programs. They had to pass a test administered by the guidance counselor. I believe this test was given to all the students; my daughters took the test at roughly the same time because they transferred to the public school from a private school. I don't believe "gifted" programs should be scrapped because they aren't diverse, unless there is some manipulation in the qualification process.

Equal outcome is the new equal opportunity.

I found gifted programs for the most part to be a parental insecurity thing. My wife who was a teacher for 35 years found that 95% of the students in a gifted program were really just average kids with highly motivated parents. The number of truly gifted students is very small.

Our children never attended gifted programs because as parents we found them to be for the most part a reflection of parental ego and appeasement by the administration that so many parents did not feel their kids were challenged. I remember when my daughter came out of Pensacola Jr. college after taking her ACT test as she was laughing and joking and the other student who was in gifted programs had this cold stone scared look. For so many years her folks had pushed her in the early elementary gifted classes, and she was always just an average student, and my daughter was judged to be an athlete and not academically gifted. My daughter scored high, and her friend took the test repeatedly until she finally did well enough to get into the school she wanted. My daughter soared in college getting scholastic awards and playing on two division one sport teams and easily getting accepted into law school.......but some of these "gifted" average kids did not excel in college and actually struggled. There are few truly gifted students.....most are simply in the average range with very motivated parents....who in this school environment mostly are white.

2seaoat wrote:I found gifted programs for the most part to be a parental insecurity thing.  My wife who was a teacher for 35 years found that 95% of the students in a gifted program were really just average kids with highly motivated parents.  The number of truly gifted students is very small.

Our children never attended gifted programs because as parents we found them to be for the most part a reflection of parental ego and appeasement by the administration that so many parents did not feel their kids were challenged.  I remember when my daughter came out of Pensacola Jr. college after taking her ACT test as she was laughing and joking and the other student who was in gifted programs had this cold stone scared look.   For so many years her folks had pushed her in the early elementary gifted classes, and she was always just an average student, and my daughter was judged to be an athlete and not academically gifted.  My daughter scored high, and her friend took  the test repeatedly until she finally did well enough to get into the school she wanted.  My daughter soared in college getting scholastic awards and playing on two division one sport teams and easily getting accepted into law school.......but some of these "gifted" average kids did not excel in college and actually struggled.   There are few truly gifted students.....most are simply in the average range with very motivated parents....who in this school environment mostly are white.

I disagree. Some people are just smarter than others. And some of those people come from poor uneducated parents who dont give a flying fuck.

True equality is giving "one" test to ALL students. Those who pass it may get to be in gifted programs which helps them build upon thier level of acheivment. Those who dont, continue to get the standard education.

This type of thing removing a program because of lack of diversity hurts our society as a whole. Because often gifted students who lack a challenge will fall to the way side out of boredom.

In Santa Rosa county they do not to testing until 1st grade. When I retired a very close friend asked me to keep his new born for his three month to keep him out of day care. Needless to say, I was so attached to him I kept him until he started school. It was obvious at 18 months he was well above average intelligence.

When he started kindergarten.....the school wanted to test him. His mom and dad did not want him to be tested. I pushed for testing. His IQ was 149 and another testing was 155. He was reading on a 5 th grade level. The following year the school put him in the gifted class....but he did not like it. He needed to be with his classmates. In second grade they again put him in the gifted class and he was ready.

I firmly believe when you have a student so much more advanced, you do a disservice to hold them back. He needed to be challenged.

Was he black Joanni ?

Dot,
You amuse me because you either do not realize how old we are talking about in these gifted programs, or you have never seen how these actually work. We are talking about Kindergarten kids. We are talking about elementary school programs. What test do you give to a Kindergartner student? That would be like selecting the varsity basketball team in Kindergarten by some objective test.......the very premise is absurd from the get go. Most state testing does not start until the third grade, and in my opinion any gifted programs should not start until the fourth or fifth grade when objective testing is possible. Kindergarten placement in gifted programs is all about parents, and an average student who happens to read earlier than a truly gifted student who is not yet reading is as absurd as picking the varsity center from Kindergarten based on the tallest kid.

In the case of my kids, it was 4th and 2nd grade, respectively, because they went to a private school prior to that. I'm just telling facts.

2seaoat wrote:Dot,
You amuse me because you either do not realize how old we are talking about in these gifted programs, or you have never seen how these actually work.  We are talking about Kindergarten kids.  We are talking about elementary school programs.  What test do you give to a Kindergartner student?   That would be like selecting the varsity basketball team in Kindergarten by some objective test.......the very premise is absurd from the get go.   Most state testing does not start until the third grade, and in my opinion any gifted programs should not start until the fourth or fifth grade when objective testing is possible.  Kindergarten placement in gifted programs is all about parents, and an average student who happens to read earlier than a truly gifted student who is not yet reading is as absurd as picking the varsity center from Kindergarten based on the tallest kid.

Glad I can amuse you.

There are very young children of a few years old who can read etc when most can not. To me it doesn't matter the age. If you have a child that is obviously gifted it should be encouraged.

However, lets get back to the topic of this post. This program wasn't canceled because they thought like you that these kids were too young to participate. Obviously they thought they were not and had this program, correct? But yet what they did was cancel it because there was not enough "diversity". < That is wrong.

I think seaoat is simply shooting from the hip on this one. I was in PATS from the fifth to the seventh grade and had to test into it every year. It has nothing to do with motivated parents as I had a dad that worked shiftwork at Monsanto and a mom who taught English at the middle school level. We didn't get a lot of input from them on schoolwork as they were both beat from work themselves,that is not to say that I didn't have two loving parents its just that I had to self motivate. I remember as a kid my favorite read was to grab an encyclopedia off the shelf and just float away to another world.

Floridatexan wrote:
Both my kids were in "gifted" programs.  They had to pass a test administered by the guidance counselor.  I believe this test was given to all the students; my daughters took the test at roughly the same time because they transferred to the public school from a private school.  I don't believe "gifted" programs should be scrapped because they aren't diverse, unless there is some manipulation in the qualification process.

Talk to your messiah in the Oval Office along with Eric Holder.

Markle wrote:

Floridatexan wrote:
Both my kids were in "gifted" programs.  They had to pass a test administered by the guidance counselor.  I believe this test was given to all the students; my daughters took the test at roughly the same time because they transferred to the public school from a private school.  I don't believe "gifted" programs should be scrapped because they aren't diverse, unless there is some manipulation in the qualification process.

Talk to your messiah in the Oval Office along with Eric Holder.

Absolutely zero correlation between your remark and the subject...but you know that.

Floridatexan wrote:

Markle wrote:

Floridatexan wrote:
Both my kids were in "gifted" programs.  They had to pass a test administered by the guidance counselor.  I believe this test was given to all the students; my daughters took the test at roughly the same time because they transferred to the public school from a private school.  I don't believe "gifted" programs should be scrapped because they aren't diverse, unless there is some manipulation in the qualification process.

Talk to your messiah in the Oval Office along with Eric Holder.

Absolutely zero correlation between your remark and the subject...but you know that.

There have always been manipulations, state level. Schools, especially Jr. Colleges and Universities, receive grant money by enrolling more minority students. If they can't pass the entrance requirements they can not be admitted......you figure it out.

Nit shooting from the hip......most gifted students in Kindergarten later test well within the average range. Most children in gifted programs are not gifted but average. Every three or four years my wife would come along and have a gifted student, but for the most part she had average highly motivated children with a great deal of parental input......just what you want in an educational environment, but statistically there are few who are gifted in these classes. I liken it to sitting in the stands in fifth grade and watching the conduct of parents trying to get their kids on traveling teams in baseball. Each is convinced that their child is a star and the pressure put on coaches and administration for their kids to play. Most do not play on the high school team, and maybe a couple out of the whole program play college ball, and most programs never get a kid into the minors let alone the bigs.

Sorry, average is a wide range, and there is nothing wrong with the same, and most gifted programs are dealing with highly motivated average students, with few falling into true gifted status.

2seaoat wrote:Nit shooting from the hip......most gifted students in Kindergarten later test well within the average range.  Most children in gifted programs are not gifted but average.  Every three or four years my wife would come along and have a gifted student, but for the most part she had average highly motivated children with a great deal of parental input......just what you want in an educational environment, but statistically there are few who are gifted in these classes.  I liken it to sitting in the stands in fifth grade and watching the conduct of parents trying to get their kids on traveling teams in baseball.  Each is convinced that their child is a star and the pressure put on coaches and administration for their kids to play.   Most do not play on the high school team, and maybe a couple out of the whole program play college ball, and most programs never get a kid into the minors let alone the bigs.

Sorry, average is a wide range, and there is nothing wrong with the same, and most gifted programs are dealing with highly motivated average students, with few falling into true gifted status.

your argument is with them in their initial program. what do you have to say to them in canceling it because of race?

2seaoat wrote:Nit shooting from the hip......most gifted students in Kindergarten later test well within the average range.  Most children in gifted programs are not gifted but average.  Every three or four years my wife would come along and have a gifted student, but for the most part she had average highly motivated children with a great deal of parental input......just what you want in an educational environment, but statistically there are few who are gifted in these classes.  I liken it to sitting in the stands in fifth grade and watching the conduct of parents trying to get their kids on traveling teams in baseball.  Each is convinced that their child is a star and the pressure put on coaches and administration for their kids to play.   Most do not play on the high school team, and maybe a couple out of the whole program play college ball, and most programs never get a kid into the minors let alone the bigs.

Sorry, average is a wide range, and there is nothing wrong with the same, and most gifted programs are dealing with highly motivated average students, with few falling into true gifted status.

Is that your wife's opinion, based on observation in a regular classroom, or does she have testing information to back up her claim?

I don't consider a kindergarten child that scores 149 and 155 on IQ testing and reads on a 5 the grade level to be an average student. Nor do I believe his test scores are the result of pushy over motivated parents.

I saw a difference in him, from other little ones, before he was 12 months old......by 18 months it was amazing and a little scary. He had mastered colors, shapes, and the letters in the alphabet. I started him on phonetics...single sounds ( vowels and consonants) and advanced to blended sounds. Before age 3 he was reading.

Sorry your wife was stuck with average gifted students and didn't have a chance to work with a little genius.

Is that your wife's opinion, based on observation in a regular classroom, or does she have testing information to back up her claim?


Thirty five years of testing results and follow up with post high school success.  She has been on school board committees dealing with the problems of gifted programs.  Overwhelmingly the students in gifted programs are average students who are highly motivated and controlled by parental input, and few fall into truly gifted categories, and many parents of truly gifted students are mainstreaming those kids and challenging them with supplemental learning outside the school.  Many boards of education are clamping down on the wide breath of these "gifted programs" and the truth is that there is nothing wrong with being in the average range.   Now advanced placement in high school is another animal altogether, and typically those who find the greatest success were never in those kindergarten, first, second and third gifted programs.  It is a real eye opener when year after year these kids who were in early gifted programs fail to perform on nationally standardized admission tests.

My wife would suggest perhaps 10% of those in gifted programs are gifted, but some studies have shown as little as 3%.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1315414/Gifted-children-just-likely-fail-life.html

One of my grandsons skipped high school and went straight to college and he's on the Presidents list there with a perfect grade point avg.. He will have his AA at 17. He was a amazing from the day he was born. He told me the other day one of his professors asked what GMO stood for. He said he raised his hand after waiting and was the only one in class that knew..he said thanks to me..LOL.

My guess he was never guided to a kindergarten gifted class. Your grandson is perhaps the true 10% of gifted, and they just excel if motivated, and it sounds like he is self motivated.

2seaoat wrote:Is that your wife's opinion, based on observation in a regular classroom, or does she have testing information to back up her claim?


Thirty five years of testing results and follow up with post high school success.  She has been on school board committees dealing with the problems of gifted programs.  Overwhelmingly the students in gifted programs are average students who are highly motivated and controlled by parental input, and few fall into truly gifted categories, and many parents of truly gifted students are mainstreaming those kids and challenging them with supplemental learning outside the school.  Many boards of education are clamping down on the wide breath of these "gifted programs" and the truth is that there is nothing wrong with being in the average range.   Now advanced placement in high school is another animal altogether, and typically those who find the greatest success were never in those kindergarten, first, second and third gifted programs.  It is a real eye opener when year after year these kids who were in early gifted programs fail to perform on nationally standardized admission tests.

My wife would suggest perhaps 10% of those in gifted programs are gifted, but some studies have shown as little as 3%.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1315414/Gifted-children-just-likely-fail-life.html

Yes or no... does your wife have first hand experience having taught a gifted student with a documented IQ 149 or above.

Now, I do agree with you and your wife the gifted program has many students that are not gifted.

This whole thing is soon irrelevant... common core is setting up federal standards and the doe is growing exponentially.

I see the whole process changing dramatically over the next two generations. Local and even state will be relegated.

Human beings used to be good at recognizing patterns.

yes, she worked with truly gifted students, but few of the kids in the gifted programs were gifted.....they were average with highly motivated parents. Most early elementary school gifted programs are parental appeasement by the school board and administrators as a method to silence squeaky wheels.

2seaoat wrote:yes, she worked with truly gifted students, but few of the kids in the gifted programs were gifted.....they were average with highly motivated parents.  Most early elementary school gifted programs are parental appeasement by the school board and administrators as a method to silence squeaky wheels.  

I agree with the assesment of non-gifted students in a program they do not qualify to be in.

I'm glad my little buddy waited until second grade to join the gifted class. He needed the socialization and learned structure of a school setting.