“Don’t let them steal our beach.”

Gosh, Linda, you didn't offend me and I apologize if it cam across that way.

No, I'm not one of the eight, sadly and worried enough about your comments that I looked online a bit to get updated.  Truthfully, the beach is something I try not to think about much these days.

Anyway:

Florida Supreme Court Accepts Jurisdiction of Beach Tax Cases



On February 29, 2012, the Florida Supreme Court accepted jurisdiction on the case involving taxation of improvements on Pensacola Beach (Case #11-2231) and taxation of land on Navarre Beach (Case #11-1445).  We are going to the next level!



The order in both cases reads as follows:

“The Court accepts jurisdiction and dispenses with oral arguments pursuant to Florida Rule of Appellate Procedure 9.320.  Petitioner’s brief on the merits shall be served on or before March 26, 2012; respondent’s brief on the merits shall be served twenty days after service of petitioner’s brief on the merits; and petitioner’s reply brief on the merits shall be served twenty days after service of respondent’s brief on the merits.  Please file an original and seven copies of all briefs.  The Clerk of the First District Court of Appeal shall file the original record which shall be properly indexed and paginated on or before April 30, 2012.  The record shall include the briefs filed in the district court separately indexed.”



This means the case against taxation of improvements on a large number of homes, condos and townhouses on Pensacola Beach will be reviewed by the Florida Supreme Court.  It also means that the same Court will be looking at the legality of taxing land on Navarre Beach.  Both cases are being handled by Shell, Fleming, Davis & Menge.  Given the dates for submittal of briefs to the Supreme Court and filing of the record by the First District Court of Appeal, it is unlikely that a decision will be forthcoming any earlier than July.


It's a mess for sure, but at this point, I'm not sure you shouldn't be the one to go to the tax office with questions!

Storm, I'm more than a bit surprised  that this is the first you've seen of our case's coming before the FL Supreme Court.  The case as to our improvements, along with NBeach's as to the land, have already been heard at the high court, in fact on November 6 of last year.  We still await a decision.

Am going to take a wild guess here that you may not've read this entire thread.    

RealLindaL wrote:Storm, I'm more than a bit surprised  that this is the first you've seen of our case's coming before the FL Supreme Court.  The case as to our improvements, along with NBeach's as to the land, have already been heard at the high court, in fact on November 6 of last year.  We still await a decision.

Am going to take a wild guess here that you may not've read this entire thread.    

You would be correct in your guess.

Yes, of course I knew about the hearing. I just wanted to clarify that it is the structures we were talking about vs. NB land and structure. I do check for hearing results at times. Geez, it takes a long time!

I am wondering why you are paying land taxes and I am not, but will leave it up to my accounting firm for now.

Now, I gotta run!

Back Linda and I made my lazy self sit down and read all the posts. Forgive, but I've always been too impatient. Bill Post and I do stay in email contact and I guess I sort of count on him to keep me informed. He always has and is a good man.

The only thing that knocked me off my chair was your statement that the Supreme Court could handle this by entering no ruling at all!

Holey Smoley! I do believe you in your statement, but have to agree with SO that we have just been spinning wheels given that is the case.

Again, what I loved about the beach is far long gone. Bad faith and outright lies offend me to the point where I go to avoidance mode.

Good luck to us all, but I'm in agreement, it's a lost cause.

BTW, I don't consider you a traitor for paying taxes. I held out 2 years until I saw what 12% does to one's tax bill! Another fine example of our County's ethics. I pay mine now, too.

Good luck to us all, but I'm in agreement, it's a lost cause.

*******************************************************

Stormy,

First and foremost . . . . . . never ever give up! Yes we may lose our case but we will have had our day in court and our case heard.

It is extremely unlikely that no decision will be made . . . . . when the Court accepts a case and hears the arguments there will be a decision. I have posted previously that in the lower court's ruling (siding with the County) they submitted a 48-50 page commentary, of which about 44 pages AGREED with the PB leaseholder's case. I mention this again only to highlight what could be reason for optimism. . . . . if the lower court had wanted to extinguish all hope (no appeal) all they needed to do was submit their ruling with the one word that prevents any appeals and that word is AFFIRMED. Instead, of the lengthy commentary submitted by the Appeal Court the preponderance of that commentary agreed with the Plaintiffs.

I won't bore you with other non essential commentary but there is still hope that justice will be done here.

Great post, Knot!

Agreed, we need to hold onto something, but even the improbability that they could not render a decision of any sort disturbs me greatly.

I agree, so much, with your posts re"  PB and am really sorry they lumped us into the NB case.  The leases are different as ownership is different.

Simple, but to expect gov't or disinterested lawyers to understand and plead the difference, is far more optimistic than I am, anymore.  Menges had the whole thing grasped.  I'm not sure Danny does.

Hang in, Knot.  No one would be happier than I should they decide to become honorable and respect the promises made in 1947, but I'm pretty well done with the beach, sadly.

On an aside, we are neighbors and actually probably know each other. It would be weird if we didn't.

 Hang in and thanks.

PS:  Bill sent me the last decision, I believe it was Xmas eve several years back.  He wrote me that he considered it a victory.  Perhaps, I'm hoping for too much, but he was really happy saying it paved the way to go to SC.

I am disturbed by Linda's remark that they could avoid a decision.

Sigh, back to avoidance.  

stormwatch89 wrote:Yes, of course I knew about the hearing.  I just wanted to clarify that it is the structures we were talking about vs. NB land and structure.  I do check for hearing results at times.  Geez, it takes a long time!

I am wondering why you are paying land taxes and I am not, but will leave it up to my accounting firm for now.

Now, I gotta run!

Storm, yes, our case before the Supremes is about the improvements (structures), but of course the outcome on the NB case is extremely critical to us as well; Chris Jones will cease assessing land here if the Supremes rule it not allowable on NB.

Will be interested to hear what your accounting firm has to say about the land taxes in your case.  Will tell you that before I knew you were in regular contact with Bill Post, I emailed him with a brief summary of your situation and asked to be refreshed on "the eight," which he did.  He then opined that your situation sounded strange and could be an oversight on the part of Jones' office.

Storm, our mutual friend Bill Post is the one who told me, quite a while back, that not ruling at all was an option for the Court.  He did not say one way or another how likely he thought that outcome might be.  Why don't you ask him?

As you've seen, Bill has been very upbeat and positive about our chances in the courts all along.  I hope he won't be sorely disappointed -- but somehow, knowing him, I doubt he'll totally give up even if the SC rules against us and/or NB.  Don't ask me what else could be done at that point because I sure don't see any path other than just going along and paying.

Personally I won't ever be happy paying property taxes unless and untill I truly own the place, and that's why I've long pushed for title legislation.  Bill and many, many others have been very reluctant to do so.   But I've been over all that....talk about beating a dead horse.  

Sadly, the court decision is 99% certain, and fee simple must be the focus. Fee simple will be the final resolution which brings some justice to a very skewed situation currently.

I guess there is always hope in the 1%, but sadly this would open the flood gates by corporations to challenge their paying taxes on other types of commercial leaseholds at airports and other public properties. Equitable title is settled law.

Storm, just one more thought I'd like to share with you, at the risk of irritating you, which I really, really don't want to do, but here goes:  

Listen, I realize after reading your posts that you are done with PB (perhaps you no longer even live around here?), and no longer support or "protect," I think you said, the beach; that you have a bad taste in your mouth about it all, and are just awaiting the best opportunity to bail.  Entirely your prerogative, of course, though personally I find it imminently sad.

(Aside: on the old PNJ forums, the folks I found most anti-beach were those who either used to live out here but no longer did, for various reasons, or those who said they seriously considered living here and "could've" bought on the island but didn't -- again, for various reasons we can only surmise.  I just found it kind of interesting that these folks were rather like reformed smokers in now being bitterly against just about everything having to do with PBeach.  Some even said they'd love to see it all fall into the sea in a Cat 5 'cane.  NOT saying Storm is like that -- just saying.  )

Storm, the only thing I'd like to ask you to consider is to tone down a little, both here and elsewhere, the rhetoric about what you'll do if you're going to end up being taxed, that is, IF the true meaning behind your words -- as it certainly comes across to me, dunno about others -- is something like, OK, people, you wanna break your promises and tax me?  I'm gonna get tough and fence off my property and I'm gonna flout the single family zoning and whatever else I feel like doing in my own best interests, so there.

My question is this, Storm:  Whom do you suppose you're hurting or even influencing with that kind of 'threat'?  Surely not Chris Jones or any other county official, since they're not about to change course because of your plans to seek your 'revenge', so to speak.

But I'll tell you whom you may in fact be hurting, however inadvertently -- and that's your fellow leaseholders.  And that's because such an attitude only fans the flames of mainland resentment and fear, and we don't need more of that here, heaven knows.  Please.  

Just take a look at the number of hits on this thread.  People are reading, even if not posting.  And they'll latch onto anything like that and say, "See!  I told you so!  They're gonna wall off the beach and make it the enclave of the rich!"  

And, if the SC rules against us, this just makes our job of moving the title process along that much harder, because we'll have to fight the angry, frightened mobs in the halls of the BOCC.

Again, am just asking you (and others) to consider the far-ranging effects of your words, and I'll endeavor to do the same.

Thanks for listening, Storm!   (As if you had a choice.  Ha.   )

Signing off for now and wishing you and everyone a pleasant Thursday evening, and a happy Labor Day Weekend if we don't "talk" again before then.   _LL

RealLindaL wrote:Storm, our mutual friend Bill Post is the one who told me, quite a while back, that not ruling at all was an option for the Court.  He did not say one way or another how likely he thought that outcome might be.  Why don't you ask him?

As you've seen, Bill has been very upbeat and positive about our chances in the courts all along.  I hope he won't be sorely disappointed -- but somehow, knowing him, I doubt he'll totally give up even if the SC rules against us and/or NB.  Don't ask me what else could be done at that point because I sure don't see any path other than just going along and paying.

Personally I won't ever be happy paying property taxes unless and untill I truly own the place, and that's why I've long pushed for title legislation.  Bill and many, many others have been very reluctant to do so.   But I've been over all that....talk about beating a dead horse.  

I understand your position, Linda. Really.

Yes, Bill can be upbeat, but he also has wisdom and has done much research. We can only hope.

My accountant is a senior partner with the firm and knows Chrissy well. He actually likes the man! We've had heated discussions on that one, for sure!

I might discuss with him, but think, for now I'll keep my head buried in the sand.

Surely, you would understand that! If they come after me later, I'll be like Knot and pay, but why stir the pot? It still eludes me that I would receive 0 tax liability on 2 gulf front lots. Perhaps one, but two?

Let them try to charge me interest for bills never sent.

Did I mention, I work for the Attorney General? Maybe that will help, who knows. It's a mess.

I also had to laugh at thinking about some of us going fee simple and others retaining their leases with regards to storm damage clean up.

Seriously, can you imagine the yahoos they have restoring the beach considering ownership as they trowel the sand hither and tither?

It makes me giggle and I guess that's a good thing.

SO is correct in that I know many of the SRIA people and think they might be more helpful. As you know most, if not all, live on the beach and have been caught with their pants down as we have.

I still ask how ALL of us could have not demanded a no tax provision in our closing statements. We were confident in what was presented.

That is shameful and kills the love I once had for the beach. Shame on them.

Moving on.

Golly gee Linda. You are so right. I am bitter and there is no reason to prove people right at this point. We both love the beach and the wrongful acts of others should not destroy our love. Sorry.

Thank you. Startle wake up.

Could I, at least fence in my shower?

Thanks.

http://www.kingsupply.com/Coin-Operated-Shower-Timers-s/1827.htm

convert it to a pay shower.....put a sign up, and have tokens for your renters........nobody will trespass again.

2seaoat wrote:http://www.kingsupply.com/Coin-Operated-Shower-Timers-s/1827.htm

convert it to a pay shower.....put a sign up, and have tokens for your renters........nobody will trespass again.

PERFECT! Nothing better than a late night giggle when giggles are all we have left.

Thanks, SO. Still giggling.

stormwatch89 wrote:Golly gee Linda.  You are so right.  I am bitter and there is no reason to prove people right at this point. We both love the beach and the wrongful acts of others should not destroy our love.  Sorry.

Thank you.  Startle wake up.

Could I, at least fence in my shower?  

Thanks.

Oh wow, Storm, you are such a peach for posting this.  Warmed the very cockles of my heart (whatever cockles are).  Thanks so much!  Makes me want to meet you someday.

As for fencing in the shower (funny girl) - remember I did suggest (in post #90 on this thread) that you do just that.  Many if not most of the outdoor showers in my neighborhood are enclosed by privacy fencing, open only at the bottom such that one's lower calves show below the enclosure, and with a latched door. You know what I mean - you've seen 'em.  Are these types of enclosures permitted on Gulf front properties?  I think it would take real cojones for a stranger to actually open and enter someone else's enclosure to shower.  

But I like SO's coin op idea even better.  You're right -- we really needed that chuckle!!     Thanks, Sea.

As for your earlier, admittedly head-in-the-sand post about not stirring the pot as to the mysterious missing land taxes on your properties, all I can say is it's entirely up to you.  But won't your curiosity get the best of you?  It's such an intriguing situation.  Hey, here's a thought:  maybe your accountant pulled some strings with his buddy "Chrissy."    LOL

Anyway, goodnight all.  Keep thinking NO STORMS.  So far we're doing great!     __LL

Aw, Linda, I'm certainly no peach, but have always tried to be a good neighbor. You were completely right in correcting my revenge thinking.

Agreed.

Yup, I love the idea of the coin shower. Still giggling on that one. You know it's not even the water bill that bothers me as it is people walking over the "berm" when there is an access on one side of my property.

I don't know if you are familiar with New Joisey beaches, but most insist that you buy badges in order to utilize the beach! So glad we're not at that point.

Hey, what's up with all the palms they're planting? Could they not wait until storm season is behind us????

Let's hope they get a chance to grow!

Yeah, no, my accountant is a straight up guy and no, I'm not that curious. This dog will remain in a deep and happy sleep.

Linda, knowing that you've been on the beach as long as you have, we probably have already met.

BTW, you got me to wondering about cockles.



An inspirational story or nostalgic movie is often said to "warm the cockles of your heart," but where exactly are they located? Not surprisingly, the answer will not be a test question on any medical school exam. The "cockles" are more metaphorical than physical, although the phrase can be traced back to 15th century medical beliefs. Unfortunately, the etymological path gets a tad murky after that.

Under one popular theory, the phrase "cockles of your heart" is derived from the Latin description for the heart's chambers, cochleae cordis. It is believed that the word "cockles" is a corrupted version of cochleae, most likely entering the popular vernacular as a form of slang. The prevailing medical opinion of that day and time was that the ventricles of the human heart resembled the concentric shells of small mollusks or snails, also known as cochleae or cockles. This theory concerning the origin of of the phrase does address the connection between the physical and emotional role of the heart, but the shell analogy appears to be more accurate with the structure of the human ear. The Latin cochlea is still used to describe the ear, not the cardium, or heart.


Clear as mud, right? They evidently are also (more importantly) a shell fish resembling the oyster........yum.

stormwatch89 wrote:
PS:  Bill sent me the last decision, I believe it was Xmas eve several years back.  He wrote me that he considered it a victory.  Perhaps, I'm hoping for too much, but he was really happy saying it paved the way to go to SC.

I am disturbed by Linda's remark that they could avoid a decision.

Sigh, back to avoidance.  

Well, Storm, maybe this'll make you feel a little better.  I was emailing Bill on another matter and asked him about that statement he made several months back as to the possibility the Supremes would not rule at all on the  tax cases.  Here was his response today:

"It is not likely at this point for the Supremes not to make a ruling. But, they could in theory just say never mind which would leave the district court's opinion as the ruling. Again, I would be shocked if the Supremes did not have their say."

So, to summarize, I guess Bill thinks it's still possible, though less likely "at this point."

stormwatch89 wrote:BTW, you got me to wondering about cockles.


Clear as mud, right?  They evidently are also (more importantly) a shell fish resembling the oyster........yum.

Yeah, clear as mud, Storm, but thanks for taking the time to look it up.

As for the shellfish, remember the old Irish ditty, "Molly Malone"?
One line sticks in memory:  "Calling cockles, mussels, alive, alive o."

stormwatch89 wrote:I don't know if you are familiar with New Joisey beaches, but most insist that you buy badges in order to utilize the beach!  So glad we're not at that point

I am too, Storm, and hope we never do get there.

Have been on a coupla Jersey beaches (late 1990's - we actually almost bought something in Avalon), but don't remember having to have a badge.  Do, however, recall that public access and parking were extremely limited (and the parking called for $), as is true on so many other strands in this country.  Pensacola Beach has to be one of THE most freely accessible beaches in the nation.  Visitors are amazed.  They sometimes stop us on our walks, driving down Ariola, opening a window and saying, "Wow, can we really park anywhere along here??!"  

(To which I usually respond something like, "Anywhere on the south (Gulf) side of the road where parking is not specifically prohibited by signs, and where you're not blocking a driveway or public access walkway.  I do suggest you be sure to leave both left side wheels on the pavement."   (Bayside Towing prolly hates me for saying that last part.   LOL)

stormwatch89 wrote:Linda, knowing that you've been on the beach as long as you have, we probably have already met.  

You think?  Don't know where or when.  I'm not a party person or joiner (except for limited participation in the old PBRLA), so really haven't met a whole lot of folks -- though I've smiled at/greeted many on my walks.

stormwatch89 wrote:Hey, what's up with all the palms they're planting?  Could they not wait until storm season is behind us????

Let's hope they get a chance to grow!

Funny you should mention, Storm, as I've been thinking we should start a separate thread on that very subject.  Shall we?  Maybe tomorrow.  Because I'm wondering what others are thinking about this so-called "beautification project," long planned to be done with "excess lease fees" (whatever they are) that have been accumulating from Portofino since those towers were built.

Don't get me started on the whole thing (including your very astute point about the timing), or I'll get riled and not be able to sleep.  Maybe another day, another thread.....but the bottom line is I think it's ridiculous overkill, very in-your-face where planted immediately in front of leaseholds, especially where there's no regard whatsoever for encroachment on existing plantings or other landscaping, or for impact to the already-limited views.    I'm not generally a paranoid person, but have said to his face in the past that I think this entire project is probably designed by Robert Rinke for the express purpose of disguising the less-than-perfect facades of the eclectic Via de Luna building mix, so that Portofino residents and visitors don't have to view the slums en route to their luxury digs.

Gotta quit now.  Goodnight all and I'll TTYT,    LL

stormwatch89 wrote:Yeah, no, my accountant is a straight up guy and no, I'm not that curious.  This dog will remain in a deep and happy sleep.

Again, absolutely up to you, Storm.  But with regard to the lot you sold this year, on which you say there were no land taxes due...well, I've been thinking...  (Smell the smoke?)  Since you say that you've been paying taxes to avoid interest,  I'm going to suggest that your accountant (or someone!) very possibly paid the 2012 ad valorem tax on the land before the sale closed.  And, since the 2013 taxes won't be billed until November of this year, then of course there would be no tax due prior to that - thus, zero due at time of closing.

(I suppose there could've perhaps been some months' worth of tax escrow due on the buyer's account IF they had financed, and if the lender required it - but, since this was a lot, it's doubtful they financed anyway, right?  So nobody had to pay anything that day.)

One simple way to verify this  - which will prolly only work until the 2013 tax bills come out -- is for you to go to Chris Jones' website - escpa.org (are you familiar with it?), and along the top right click on Record Search>Real Estate, then enter the lot's address (just number and street) in the search window.  When the card comes up on that parcel, near the upper left click on the link "Open Tax Inquiry Window", and you will see what is very likely still your own tax status info, not the buyers' since they haven't been billed yet.  And I'm betting it shows that land tax was paid in full before you sold.   

As for your beach house complete with shower  ;-) , I don't have a clue why you're getting the separate TRIM notice for that address' land, showing zero.  That is just plain weird.  And yes, I understand you don't wanna know right now.  NOMB anyway, though if I knew the address I'd search it on the same website, see what I could find out.  Once more - up to you.  I'm done bothering you on this.

Hope you're enjoying your weekend!  Rain, rain stay away!

 __LL, off to get some sun and read a book

Where IS everybody?   Enjoying the holiday weekend, I hope.

Let's do keep the conversation going, tho.  Wondering what y'all thought of Grover's Viewpoint today....

P.S.  Storm, glad to know your accountant is a straight-up guy. So hard to find these days.  If I ever need an accountant, may I borrow yours?

Did not see Grover's viewpoint......just Earl doing his patrician best to be plebian and speak rural Florida like in the Yearling.......Earl is a hoot. A red headed step child now that the PNJ has an editor......