Shaken Baby Case is on trial now

QueenOfHearts wrote:

Vikingwoman wrote:

QueenOfHearts wrote:

Vikingwoman wrote:People don't realize this could happen to anybody. If you're accused of a crime and you don't have money you're a goner and that's just a fact.Poor people are screwed everyday. Just look at that poor young girl accused of neglecting her mother? She'll get 12 years minimum for aggravated manslaughter.

This case too had a defense expert paid for by the State of Florida.  Again, there was overwhelming evidence that led to this young woman's conviction.  Her mother died a horrible death, and was actually in a state of decay prior to her death.

What was the overwhelming evidence? The mother had acute pneumonia and heart disease. Neglect was a contributing factor -not the cause. She should have been charged w/ neglect not manslaughter.

She would not have died from the heart disease and pneumonia if not for the neglect.  She was in a state of decay while she was still alive.  She was covered in bedsores.  They were so bad you could see all the way to her bone.  She had not been given proper nourishment.  The woman had insect larvae in her pubic hair and vaginal area because she was not changed and cleaned as she should have been.  Etc. etc. etc.   When the neglect leads to death, it is manslaughter.

That's not true. The bed sores didn't lead to her death if she had pneumonia. The girl may not have been the best caretaker but bedsores and pneumonia setting in happen w/ people who are in that condition. The girl got ensure from DCF. The mother probably couldn't eat very much w/ pneumonia.I think the manslaughter was an overcharge. The woman was left w/ a 20 yr. old girl w/ no medical training caring for a stroke victim. This was a failure of a lot of people.

Oh now we're talking! The child had a large bruise on the side/back of his head and they couldn't rule out he fell? How many shaken baby cases have large bruises on their heads? This takes on a whole nother perspective.



It does not matter what the evidence was. Six nurses were allegedly seated on this Jury panel, and my question is how did six nurses get in the entire jury selection pool for that week. Random luck of the draw? Without proper and paid for expert testimony, the child could have had the letter F imprinted on his skull with blood on the block, but if a coroner says while the baby was being shaken his head hit something......OMG.......and without competent and multiple defense expert testimony this defendant was doomed......this is a fricking joke.

I was told that they had two experts who said this injury could have happened earlier, and it is obvious now this family had no idea the path they were being led down. Life in prison. There is no justice in Santa Rosa County.

There were only 4 nurses Oatie but the fact that the child had a large bruise on his head changes everything. That's ridiculous they said the woman hit something while shaking him. She would have had to hit something so powerful it caused a brain bleed. Just absurd! It takes a couple of hours for a bruise to form. Something is really wrong w/ what happened here. She needs a new medical examiner to review this case.

This was a failure of a lot of people.

It is easier to find a scapegoat and quick resolution, than to deal with the truth.

Somebody most likely dropped that child on his head or he fell. I don't believe for a minute she hit the child's head while shaking him. On what? Doesn't make sense. I could not have voted for that murder charge w/ so many unanswered questions.

She needs a new medical examiner to review this case.

I doubt that the defense will even file the proper post trial motions as they are the same people who sat four nurses on a medical circumstantial case, but the very use of the word shaken gives you the bias of all the people who went along with this lynching. How about this. Denise got angry at the kid and hit the kid with the telephone book. So is the coroner upon finding blunt force on a child going to say the child was "hit" by something like a telephone book. It is absurd logically that a blunt force injury allows these so called experts to say out loud that the child was being shaken when their head hit something......utter fantasy, but without expert rebuttal, they could have said Denise had the devil's tail which she beat the child.

Again Pace High School just lost to the Yankees and people are going to tell us it was a fair game and we had to watch the game because without watching it how could we say that the results were certain and it was an unfair game.

Vikingwoman wrote:Somebody most likely dropped that child on his head or he fell. I don't believe for a minute she hit the child's head while shaking him. On what? Doesn't make sense. I could not have voted for that murder charge w/ so many unanswered questions.

Perhaps while taking him to the crib, or if he was held upside down. Or jerking him to the floor before shaking him....plenty of ways.

Somebody most likely dropped that child on his head or he fell. I don't believe for a minute she hit the child's head while shaking him. On what? Doesn't make sense. I could not have voted for that murder charge w/ so many unanswered questions.

I would have given much more credence to this entire process if she was granted reasonable bond, and there was MUCH MORE investigation initially. This rush to indictment and their failure to crack her into admitting something she did not do, or make inconsistent statement smelled to high heaven from the git go when people had suggested to me that the child's family had someone who worked in the Santa Rosa criminal justice system. That allegations is unproven, but the rush to judgment without even exhausting an investigation which should have taken at least a month before indictment looks like a scapegoat was needed. Again Brodie cannot be brought back to life, and Denise's family has been destroyed, but a solution which involves two wrongs does not make a right.

Or jerking him to the floor before shaking him....plenty of ways.

Why the use of shaking. Why can't a child abuser just drop a child on the floor out of anger? Why can't a child abuser hit a child in the head with her purse? Why can't a child abuser slap the child's head with a fist?

They can, but the use of the word shaken gives a medical conclusion which is speculative and without direct evidence, but gives immediate bias to the State. None of this makes a lick of sense and but for the grace of god anyone of us could have suffered what Denise's family has suffered. There is no justice in Santa Rosa County.......no flight risk....no prior criminal conduct.....no direct evidence of any wrong doing and three years in jail without bail......travesty.

Joanimaroni wrote:

Vikingwoman wrote:Somebody most likely dropped that child on his head or he fell. I don't believe for a minute she hit the child's head while shaking him. On what? Doesn't make sense. I could not have voted for that murder charge w/ so many unanswered questions.

Perhaps while taking him to the crib, or if he was held upside down. Or jerking him to the floor before shaking him....plenty of ways.

None of that makes any sense. The bruising showed up by the time he got to the hospital. That's suspicious because that takes awhile. It sounds to me like he was dropped because it was on the side/back of the head. A drop would cause that kind of injury but who dropped him?

Vikingwoman wrote:

Joanimaroni wrote:

Vikingwoman wrote:Somebody most likely dropped that child on his head or he fell. I don't believe for a minute she hit the child's head while shaking him. On what? Doesn't make sense. I could not have voted for that murder charge w/ so many unanswered questions.

Perhaps while taking him to the crib, or if he was held upside down. Or jerking him to the floor before shaking him....plenty of ways.

None of that makes any sense. The bruising showed up by the time he got to the hospital. That's suspicious because that takes awhile. It sounds to me like he was dropped because it was on the side/back of the head. A drop would cause that kind of injury but who dropped him?

His scalp was injured enough to bruise but not enough to abrade, lacerate, or fracture. However a superficial scalp injury does not cause symptoms of severe shaken baby syndrome.

But those couple of pages explained a statistics concept known as Bayes' Theorem. It's a mistake so common it has its own grimly ironic nickname: the Prosecutor's Fallacy. Here's how Moran explains it in the paper, which is available now for free download via the Social Science Research Network:

Suppose that an airport machine that checks for explosives hidden in checked bags is 99% accurate in detecting explosives. This means that the machine will sound an alarm 99 times if 100 bags with explosives are fed through the machine, and will sound an alarm only once if 100 bags without explosives are fed through the machine. In other words, bags containing explosives are 99 times as likely to make the alarm sound as bags not containing explosives. If the alarm sounds, how likely is it that the bag contains explosives? Probably not very likely at all. If one million bags are checked by machine, one of which contains explosives (a number that is almost certainly too high), there would be approximately 10,000 false alarms for every true alarm.

Similarly, if significantly more children suffer a particular injury from natural or accidental causes than suffer the same injury as a result of abuse, then it's clearly wrong to extrapolate, from the set that was abused, that that particular injury is a clear sign of abuse. https://www.law.umich.edu/newsandinfo/features/Pages/moranshakenbabysyndrome.aspx


THE PROSECUTORS FALLACY.....

You're missing the point here. It wasn't just a superficial bruise. There was a brain bleed there. There was sufficient trauma that it injured the brain. You don't have to have a laceration or breaking of the skin. He had a contusion there. I don't believe it was shaken baby syndrome. he was dropped or he fell.

Here's a good paper on this and the law.

http://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1559&context=articles

Vikingwoman wrote:

QueenOfHearts wrote:

Vikingwoman wrote:

QueenOfHearts wrote:

Vikingwoman wrote:People don't realize this could happen to anybody. If you're accused of a crime and you don't have money you're a goner and that's just a fact.Poor people are screwed everyday. Just look at that poor young girl accused of neglecting her mother? She'll get 12 years minimum for aggravated manslaughter.

This case too had a defense expert paid for by the State of Florida.  Again, there was overwhelming evidence that led to this young woman's conviction.  Her mother died a horrible death, and was actually in a state of decay prior to her death.

What was the overwhelming evidence? The mother had acute pneumonia and heart disease. Neglect was a contributing factor -not the cause. She should have been charged w/ neglect not manslaughter.

She would not have died from the heart disease and pneumonia if not for the neglect.  She was in a state of decay while she was still alive.  She was covered in bedsores.  They were so bad you could see all the way to her bone.  She had not been given proper nourishment.  The woman had insect larvae in her pubic hair and vaginal area because she was not changed and cleaned as she should have been.  Etc. etc. etc.   When the neglect leads to death, it is manslaughter.

That's not true. The bed sores didn't lead to her death if she had pneumonia. The girl may not have been the best caretaker but bedsores and pneumonia setting in happen w/ people who are in that condition. The girl got ensure from DCF. The mother probably couldn't eat very much w/ pneumonia.I think the manslaughter was an overcharge. The woman was left w/ a 20 yr. old girl w/ no medical training caring for a stroke victim. This was a failure of a lot of people.

You did not sit through the trial. You did not review any evidence. Yet you can sit at your computer and state with certainty how she died and the cause.
If you die from pneumonia and heart disease, you die a natural death. Her death was ruled a homicide by the medical examiner. No offense, but I'm going to go with Dr. Minyard's medical opinion over your opinion.

I am not going to waste anymore time trying to present facts to Vikingwoman and 2seaoats about Lowery's conviction.  Once again, neither of you attended the trial, heard any testimony or reviewed any of the evidence.  Doctors who testified about the child's injuries, and the cause of the injuries, were two long practicing pediatricians, a pediatric neurosurgeon, a pediatric ophthalmologist and the first judicial district's coroner.  Most of them testified this was the worst case of SBS they had ever seen.  In spite of all that expertise, you two think you know more than them!   Post your addresses.  Next time Life Flight is bringing a child to SHH we'll divert them and send the child to you.  Cause you know more than all those doctors.

QueenOfHearts wrote:

Vikingwoman wrote:

QueenOfHearts wrote:

Vikingwoman wrote:

QueenOfHearts wrote:

Vikingwoman wrote:People don't realize this could happen to anybody. If you're accused of a crime and you don't have money you're a goner and that's just a fact.Poor people are screwed everyday. Just look at that poor young girl accused of neglecting her mother? She'll get 12 years minimum for aggravated manslaughter.

This case too had a defense expert paid for by the State of Florida.  Again, there was overwhelming evidence that led to this young woman's conviction.  Her mother died a horrible death, and was actually in a state of decay prior to her death.

What was the overwhelming evidence? The mother had acute pneumonia and heart disease. Neglect was a contributing factor -not the cause. She should have been charged w/ neglect not manslaughter.

She would not have died from the heart disease and pneumonia if not for the neglect.  She was in a state of decay while she was still alive.  She was covered in bedsores.  They were so bad you could see all the way to her bone.  She had not been given proper nourishment.  The woman had insect larvae in her pubic hair and vaginal area because she was not changed and cleaned as she should have been.  Etc. etc. etc.   When the neglect leads to death, it is manslaughter.

That's not true. The bed sores didn't lead to her death if she had pneumonia. The girl may not have been the best caretaker but bedsores and pneumonia setting in happen w/ people who are in that condition. The girl got ensure from DCF. The mother probably couldn't eat very much w/ pneumonia.I think the manslaughter was an overcharge. The woman was left w/ a 20 yr. old girl w/ no medical training caring for a stroke victim. This was a failure of a lot of people.

You did not sit through the trial.  You did not review any evidence.  Yet you can sit at your computer and state with certainty how she died and the cause.
If you die from pneumonia and heart disease, you die a natural death.  Her death was ruled a homicide by the medical examiner.  No offense, but I'm going to go with Dr. Minyard's medical opinion over your opinion.  

Sorry but it was Minyard's opinion she died of acute pneumonia and heart disease w/ neglect as a contributing factor. She stated that-not me. Would the woman died of pneumonia and heart disease if she wasn't neglected. Probably so. The pneumonia went undetected. I didn't ask you to take anyone's opinion but to say it was manslaughter is a stretch. Neglect maybe I don't think much of Minyard's opinion it was a homocide,though. I'll bet another ME would have a different opinion.

QueenOfHearts wrote:I am not going to waste anymore time trying to present facts to Vikingwoman and 2seaoats about Lowery's conviction.  Once again, neither of you attended the trial, heard any testimony or reviewed any of the evidence.  Doctors who testified about the child's injuries, and the cause of the injuries, were two long practicing pediatricians, a pediatric neurosurgeon, a pediatric ophthalmologist and the first judicial district's coroner.  Most of them testified this was the worst case of SBS they had ever seen.  In spite of all that expertise, you two think you know more than them!   Post your addresses.  Next time Life Flight is  bringing a child to SHH we'll divert them and send the child to you.  Cause you know more than all those doctors.

I'll bet you none of them are experts in SBS. I know Dr. Rafai is not a pediatric specialist. He did my eye. He's a retinal specialist. Nobodies doubting the child had those injuries. The doubt is how it happened and whether it could have been accidental. They don't know.

It is a very good point that how could we not understand that the State had collected six experts who testified, as this woman was indicted immediately and had one medical expert and this case went to the Jury on Friday when I thought it would be Monday or Tuesday with the defense actually providing a defense.

Again, where is the cause of this injury? Somebody pulls out of thin air that this woman shook the child. The number of shaken baby appellate reversals are staggering. Local medical people inject cause of injury. Bob and T died at Sacred Heart. I have told my wife if I am having trouble with my illness to throw a blanket over my head and drive to Birmingham for treatment, If I die before Birmingham......keep driving. We had friends visiting PB this spring and the husband got treated at a clinic associated with one of the hospitals, his treatment was so unprofessional that he told his wife they were leaving immediately and drove through the night to get professional medical care. I understand these clinics do not have the brightest stars manning them, but they were appalled and they did not tell us until last month what happened.

Now if this involved a orthopedic injury and a local Andrews doctor testified, I would be all ears. Mr. Studer made millions on the incompetence of Gulf Coast Hospitals, and when a poor woman cannot get multiple experts to testify it is a travesty. She was convicted in one week. However, you are correct......I did not listen to the evidence, but I might have not had the right team jersey on.......how can you be part of the mob without the right uniform. Something happened to this child which required a month or more of investigation and this did not happen because some treating physicians connected the injuries to this child being shaken. There are hundreds who could have reviewed and testified that there was reasonable doubt as to how this child was injured.....there is a huge logical gap between injuries and cause.

Vikingwoman wrote:

QueenOfHearts wrote:

Vikingwoman wrote:

QueenOfHearts wrote:

Vikingwoman wrote:People don't realize this could happen to anybody. If you're accused of a crime and you don't have money you're a goner and that's just a fact.Poor people are screwed everyday. Just look at that poor young girl accused of neglecting her mother? She'll get 12 years minimum for aggravated manslaughter.

This case too had a defense expert paid for by the State of Florida.  Again, there was overwhelming evidence that led to this young woman's conviction.  Her mother died a horrible death, and was actually in a state of decay prior to her death.

What was the overwhelming evidence? The mother had acute pneumonia and heart disease. Neglect was a contributing factor -not the cause. She should have been charged w/ neglect not manslaughter.

She would not have died from the heart disease and pneumonia if not for the neglect.  She was in a state of decay while she was still alive.  She was covered in bedsores.  They were so bad you could see all the way to her bone.  She had not been given proper nourishment.  The woman had insect larvae in her pubic hair and vaginal area because she was not changed and cleaned as she should have been.  Etc. etc. etc.   When the neglect leads to death, it is manslaughter.

That's not true. The bed sores didn't lead to her death if she had pneumonia. The girl may not have been the best caretaker but bedsores and pneumonia setting in happen w/ people who are in that condition. The girl got ensure from DCF. The mother probably couldn't eat very much w/ pneumonia.I think the manslaughter was an overcharge. The woman was left w/ a 20 yr. old girl w/ no medical training caring for a stroke victim. This was a failure of a lot of people.

The bedsores could absolutely be the cause of pneumonia if she became septic from the sores and from her not being cleaned cause insect investation.

Oh, and if you think I do not know what I speak about the level of care in Gulf Coast Hospitals, I golfed for 13 years with an Administrator head honcho of one of those hospitals who said he was appalled when he arrived, and worked diligently for years, but it was an uphill battle. I wish T could have been driven to a hospital in NO, Birmingham, or Tallahassee, and I sure wish Bob got in his prius and drove to Anderson in Texas and spent the money to have the best treating him. However, this woman could not choose those who were going to condemn her to life in prison, nor could she afford to pay those whose expertise could have raised the obvious reasonable doubt. So she was indicted in record time without a complete and objective investigation. Prosecutors trying to do justice.....please be real......but you are right, I did not see Pace High School get slaughtered by the Yankees and I have no basis to say the game was unfair.

The bedsores could absolutely be the cause of pneumonia if she became septic from the sores and from her not being cleaned cause insect investation.



Yep, and a social safety net should have identified immediately that a stroke victim should not be sent home with a young girl, but heck when all the money is being spent on Police and prison cells, you have to feed the monster. Denise was just one more victim, and ultimately the child was a victim of an incomplete investigation, and society will be paying 50k a year to house and feed Denise while there is not enough money to create a safety net to save a person from neglect. What a twisted sick duplicitous society has been created after Jim Crow to keep the slave militia mentality alive, until they are now turning on the very citizens they were suppose to protect, as lock em up and throw away the key has become the state motto as violent crime abounds and people in the century area get shot in their homes which is barely reported, but hundreds of thousands of dollars are spent on prosecuting a "murder" where the poor defendant had no equal justice. Things must change. Civilization is deteriorating so quickly now that what happened in Virginia this weekend is becoming the new normal and in downtown Milton one more piece of meat was fed to the machine.

2seaoat wrote:Oh, and if you think I do not know what I speak about the level of care in Gulf Coast Hospitals, I golfed for 13 years with an Administrator head honcho of one of those hospitals who said he was appalled when he arrived, and worked diligently for years, but it was an uphill battle.   I wish T could have been driven to a hospital in NO, Birmingham, or Tallahassee, and I sure wish Bob got in his prius and drove to Anderson in Texas and spent the money to have the best treating him.   However, this woman could not choose those who were going to condemn her to life in prison, nor could she afford to pay those whose expertise could have raised the obvious reasonable doubt.  So she was indicted in record time without a complete and objective investigation.  Prosecutors trying to do justice.....please be real......but you are right, I did not see Pace High School get slaughtered by the Yankees and I have no basis to say the game was unfair.

Tallahassee?

Tallahassee?


You are correct....keep driving to Tampa.

Joanimaroni wrote:

Vikingwoman wrote:

QueenOfHearts wrote:

Vikingwoman wrote:

QueenOfHearts wrote:

Vikingwoman wrote:People don't realize this could happen to anybody. If you're accused of a crime and you don't have money you're a goner and that's just a fact.Poor people are screwed everyday. Just look at that poor young girl accused of neglecting her mother? She'll get 12 years minimum for aggravated manslaughter.

This case too had a defense expert paid for by the State of Florida.  Again, there was overwhelming evidence that led to this young woman's conviction.  Her mother died a horrible death, and was actually in a state of decay prior to her death.

What was the overwhelming evidence? The mother had acute pneumonia and heart disease. Neglect was a contributing factor -not the cause. She should have been charged w/ neglect not manslaughter.

She would not have died from the heart disease and pneumonia if not for the neglect.  She was in a state of decay while she was still alive.  She was covered in bedsores.  They were so bad you could see all the way to her bone.  She had not been given proper nourishment.  The woman had insect larvae in her pubic hair and vaginal area because she was not changed and cleaned as she should have been.  Etc. etc. etc.   When the neglect leads to death, it is manslaughter.

That's not true. The bed sores didn't lead to her death if she had pneumonia. The girl may not have been the best caretaker but bedsores and pneumonia setting in happen w/ people who are in that condition. The girl got ensure from DCF. The mother probably couldn't eat very much w/ pneumonia.I think the manslaughter was an overcharge. The woman was left w/ a 20 yr. old girl w/ no medical training caring for a stroke victim. This was a failure of a lot of people.

The bedsores could absolutely be the cause of pneumonia  if she became septic from the sores and from her not being cleaned cause insect investation.

They didn't say anything about her being septic. She had acute pneumonia. The problem I have w/ all this is the girl wasn't competent or trained to care for this woman and because of that she was charged w/ killing her. There's something about that which doesn't sit well. The hospital was involved and DCF so when the girl fails she gets over a decade in prison? She was poor and didn't even have any bandages. Where was the help from DCF. Where was the home health care? Why didn't the hospital refer her to someplace? Why ? Because she didn't have any insurance. Nobody helped her when she didn't have any money to pay. She was cleaning the bedsores w/ salt water and using paper towels. She did get her Ensure and diapers but what the hell did people expect her to do? It's was a gross neglect on the people who knew better to leave this girl to care for her mother w/ no resources.