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Pensacola Discussion Forum » Politics » Why the US Dropped Atomic Bombs in 1945

Why the US Dropped Atomic Bombs in 1945

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Sal
Hospital Bob
2seaoat
Floridatexan
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2seaoat



Y'all should do a little research on Operation August Storm.


You need to read my posts more carefully. I am fully aware that the Japanese made tactical errors in Manchuria, (please look at my notes on the assessment by the Japanese), but this idea that the Japanese military respected the soviets and Russians......they would be speaking German right now if not for the American aid in WWII, and despite the tenacity of Stalingrad, and Putin's fantasy, it was America which saved their bacon, and the miscalculation of troop movements from Mongolia to Manchuria was one of Japanese arrogance of the lack of a threat than this fear of Bolsheviks which this professor tries to sell. The Japanese did not want any foreigners on their soil, and it was the Americans which presented the immediate threat as they secured complete air superiority and logistics which the had executed in Italy and Normandy. To say that the Japanese realized they were in a bad situation would be fair, but to say the soviets had caused a sudden movement to surrender after the first bomb had dropped is to completely trivialize the Japanese high command as being simpletons and not aware of the Soviet entry into the war going back all the way to fall 1943. No, I do not need to read a google link or another revisionist theory.....I simply need use the knowledge I have and common sense to discern bull chit.

ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

Salinsky wrote:Y'all should do a little research on Operation August Storm.

The Soviets decimated the Japanese army in Eastern Asia, and ended up with forces amassed just 30 miles from Hokkaido.

It's absolutely clear that the Japanese were panicked at the thought of a Bolshevik invasion, and had concluded that surrender to America would produce more generous terms.


That 30 miles was an insurmountable obstacle to the Soviet Union. Where have you read about the exploits of the Soviet Navy during WWII? Nowhere. Soviet troops would have required American transport to move to Hokkaido in 1945.

Stalin wanted some of the spoils in Manchuria. He also took all of the captured weapons obtained from the Kwantung Army, and gave these to Mao Tse Tung, to assure a Communist victory in the Chinese civil war. He also was able to install Kim Il Sung as the North Korean Communist dictator. Stalin tidied-up and secured his western flank at minimal cost by invading Manchuria. The Bomb ensured that America took Japan without Soviet involvement, and also sent a subtle message to Stalin to be aware of American power. That served us until August of 1949, when the Soviets exploded their first A-bomb, and it was off to the races for a real Cold War.

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ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

2seaoat wrote:Y'all should do a little research on Operation August Storm.


You need to read my posts more carefully.   I am fully aware that the Japanese made tactical errors in Manchuria, (please look at my notes on the assessment by the Japanese), but this idea that the Japanese military respected the soviets and Russians......they would be speaking German right now if not for the American aid in WWII, and despite the tenacity of Stalingrad, and Putin's fantasy, it was America which saved their bacon, and the miscalculation of troop movements from Mongolia to Manchuria was one of Japanese arrogance of the lack of a threat than this fear of Bolsheviks which this professor tries to sell.   The Japanese did not want any foreigners on their soil, and it was the Americans which presented the immediate threat as they secured complete air superiority and logistics which the had executed in Italy and Normandy.   To say that the Japanese realized they were in a bad situation would be fair, but to say the soviets had caused a sudden movement to surrender after the first bomb had dropped is to completely trivialize the Japanese high command as being simpletons and not aware of the Soviet entry into the war going back all the way to fall 1943.  No, I do not need to read a google link or another revisionist theory.....I simply need use the knowledge I have and common sense to discern bull chit.


I disagree that Germany had the capacity to defeat the Soviet Union, Seaoat. Stalin took over from Lenin in 1926, and in 15 years, transformed an agrarian economy into an industrial giant. Hitler grossly underestimated Soviet industrial capacity and sheer raw power. I can suggest two more titles here... Read Antony Beevor's tomes on Stalingrad and the Fall of Berlin.

The atomic bomb really did save the West. Beevor states that once Stalin took Berlin, he actively thought about marching all the way to the English Channel and down the boot of Italy and expelling the Americans and British from Europe. He had the raw power to do this in 1945, but our atomic bomb gave us a trump-card that made him pause.

But it was a close run thing.... Our Lend Lease help did aid the Soviets quite a bit, but from what I read it was not decisive for their victory over the Germans.

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2seaoat



The well read Z has nailed it again.

Wordslinger

Wordslinger

What nobody here has mentioned is the fact that had the Japanese acquired such a terrible weapon, they would not have hesitated to use it. What they did at Bataan, in China at Nanking, and to all their prisoners of war makes a powerful statement --- Imperial Japan was a hateful, cruel barbaric nation. Also our fire-bomb raids over Tokyo and Osaka killed far more civilians in a night than were evaporated at Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

Japan, it appears, has NEVER offered an apology for their crimes against humanity. Those bastards who fried under Fatboy and Little guy got exactly what they deserved.

ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

Wordslinger wrote:What nobody here has mentioned is the fact that had the Japanese acquired such a terrible weapon, they would not have hesitated to use it.  What they did at Bataan, in China at Nanking, and to all their prisoners of war makes a powerful statement --- Imperial Japan was a hateful, cruel barbaric nation.  Also our fire-bomb raids over Tokyo and Osaka killed far more civilians in a night than were evaporated at Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

Japan, it appears, has NEVER offered an apology for their crimes against humanity.  Those bastards who fried under Fatboy and Little guy got exactly what they deserved.

Good points, Wordslinger. There was a motive for revenge against the Japanese for their aggression in China, and south to the Philippines, Dutch East Indies, and Southeast Asia. The military had taken over the government of Japan and they marched to their own drum, regardless of what Emperor Hirohito said.


The militarism of Japan and Germany in the 1940s was eventually punished severely and the Japanese and German peoples paid a high price for their governments' ways.


You have to wonder.... After observing U.S. militarism since World War II, the imperialist bent it has taken, overthrowing regimes we did not agree with, waging wholesale war in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan.... When will the number come due for the American people, how will it come due, and who will administer our comeuppance?

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2seaoat



Bingo slinger.......got the feeling of this country at the time perfectly.

Sal

Sal

The aging of the brain seems to impair the processing of new information.

2seaoat



The aging of the brain seems to impair the processing of new information.


New information....you really do not get it.......mid 1970 folks were beginning the apology tour for America's choice to use the bomb......new information.....too funny.....same chit......just refried for tinfoilers.

Sal

Sal

Documents, Oats.

Contemporaneous documents that directly contradict your rah-rah, greatest generation propaganda.

Sleep peacefully.

We'll deal with the phantoms.

ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

2seaoat wrote:The aging of the brain seems to impair the processing of new information.
That statement was a real Hail-Mary pass..... Cool  

Let's see... I have mentioned 5 book titles in this thread already. I haven't seen Sal post any links to the so-called "superior new information" he has supposedly gathered from Google in this topic area.

The aging brain that is unburdened from working anymore (i.e., retired) has time for new reading. I have read 70 books in the last 26 months. Mostly non-fiction. Mostly military history and other history. I look for Kindle books that are published in the last two years, if possible, as these usually have a new look from recently discovered or newly-opened archives.

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Sal

Sal

Yes, you could fill a library with old thinking viewed through jingoistic lenses.

The victors write the history, at least initially.

But, facts are stubborn and tend to eventually bubble to the surface.

And, the fact is that contemporaneous documents and correspondence that have become available in recent decades are very clear that the Japanese had spent the entire Spring of 1945 trying to find a way to surrender to the U.S., because they were panicked at the prospect of coming to terms with the Bolsheviks.

The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were superfluous.

2seaoat



The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were superfluous.

I guess it took Sal to make our case the best........he clearly agreed that the Japanese were conflicted to find a way to peace, and had been unable to find the same since the Spring. (Z fighting off feeble, clearly outlined the book and the DIVIDED Japanese leadership, which Sal has yet to address), then Sal reaches into a myriad of real problems the Japanese were facing once America had air superiority over Japan, and speculates that the Americans were superfluous and that suddenly the Soviets who the Japanese disrespected were given a new status as Japanese cities were burning from American bombs, but the best part is Sal not even understanding the timing of the Soviet entry into the war...........they entered it after that first "superfluous" bomb.........so simplistic and wrong it is laughable........to the extent fire bombing killed more Japanese than nuclear weapons, I would agree that the nuclear bomb could never have been used and the result would have been the same.....except one thing.......more Americans would have died. The bombs were the exclamation point on the sentence which said America dominated the logistics of war and victory was certain......completely and without Soviet contribution.


ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

Salinsky wrote:Yes, you could fill a library with old thinking viewed through jingoistic lenses.

The victors write the history, at least initially.

But, facts are stubborn and tend to eventually bubble to the surface.

And, the fact is that contemporaneous documents and correspondence that have become available in recent decades are very clear that the Japanese had spent the entire Spring of 1945 trying to find a way to surrender to the U.S., because they were panicked at the prospect of coming to terms with the Bolsheviks.

The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were superfluous.


You know, at least poster Markle adds links to information supporting the eccentric positions he takes. You won't even do that!   Shocked

Seaoat and I disagree with your assertion that the Japanese were fearful of Soviet intervention in the Pacific war and were dying to surrender to us before such intervention took place. Could you point us to a source, or at least tell us where you found information leading you to take such a position?

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Wordslinger

Wordslinger

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were dues paid by the Japanese in return for waging a merciless war against America and dozens of nearly defenseless island communities for several years. If you wage war in an unmerciful manner against a major country, don't expect a box of chocolates and the hand of peace as you near your end.

The Russian army raped and pillaged and generally fucked over their German foes -- military and non-military at the end of WWII. Considering the atrocities committed by the German's and their Romanian and Ukrainian allies to the people of Russia, the Germans got off easy when the Russians rolled through.

My uncle's B-29 crew had no qualms whatever when they burned down Tokyo, Yokohama, Kawasaki, and all the people who lived in those wooden cities that burned so delightfully under napalm and magnesium bombs.

The lesson to be learned is: if you decide to make war on a big country, be ready for the tragedy that's sure to come as the war nears it's end.

What's truly bizarre is how bloodthirsty our generals and politicians are as long as the blood spilled isn't their own. In 1957 when I was stationed on a mountain top 80 miles from Las Vegas and looking down to the west at the Mercury Test Center, Curtis Lemay was urging the president to go to nuclear war against the Soviet Union. At that time our insane military leaders were more than willing -- in fact they were anxious to trade 40% of America's population to wipe out Russia.

Hillary's decisions -- to invade Iraq, engage in Afghanistan, overthrow Gaddaffi -- all became great political, ethical and costly failures.

Trump says he wants to build the military larger than it has ever been.

Over the past 100 years we have become the real champion of terror -- can any of you remember an entire year of peace since Korea?
Sooner or later we will pay the price for our arrogance and cruelty.

Reality.

ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

2seaoat wrote:The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were superfluous.

The bombs were the exclamation point on the sentence which said America dominated the logistics of war and victory was certain.......

The bombs were a more efficient way to burn cities to the ground, and they were the exclamation point, for sure. They assured American dominance through the critical rest of the 1940s, and gave Uncle Joe something to ruminate on as he consolidated the position of the postwar USSR. The first shooting war between Communism and a country aligned with the West did not start until 1950 (Korea); after Uncle Joe had tested his own atomic bomb. Stalin's first bomb was a near replica of the Fat Man design that was tested in New Mexico in 1945, and then deployed over Nagasaki a few weeks later. Uncle Joe also copied the Boeing B-29 from examples that had made emergency landings in Vladivostok. So he had the bomb and a means of delivery, and thus a freer hand to engage in mischief.....

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Guest


Guest

This guy actually started the narrative... but it was as flawed and biased then as it is now.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Nitze

Markle

Markle

Several Monday morning quarterbacks whining still...but...but...but...! Sounding like little motorboats.

The proper dropping of the bombs came shortly after the horrendous battle of Okinawa. The Japanese demonstrated a brutality and level of depravity that was shocking. In the 81 day battle, over a quarter million fatalities including Japanese, American, and civilians.

The Japanese were taught from childhood that to surrender would dishonor their country and their parents. The Japanese used the civilians on Okinawa as human shields. Middle age school boys from 14 to 17 were conscripted to be front line troops. After the battle, Japan had learned the compassion of the US Soldiers finding it difficult to fire on children. The law in Japan was immediately changed to allow conscripting of boys 15 and older and girls 17 and older for battle.

American soldiers found it difficult if not impossible to tell the Japanese soldiers from the Okinawa civilians. Shots fired from residences were returned by our troops knowing full well civilians were in the huts. It resulted in the indiscriminate shooting of civilians.

Among other losses 12 American destroyers were sunk, 763 aircraft and 225 tanks were destroyed. Japan's losses were similar.

Retreating, the Japanese would booby trap their wounded soldiers so when a US medic went to assist them, they and anyone around was killed. The Japanese would also convince civilians that the coming Americans would rape and torture and remaining civilians. The civilians were convinced to commit suicide and given hand grenades to complete the task.

It was known at the time that Japan would defend their homeland with the same brutality and fierceness as the battle of Okinawa. The military losses on both sides would be staggering along with civilian losses.

The use of the bombs was both justified and humane. It also put the rest of the world on notice of a game-changer in the world of war.

Any hindsight is senseless and totally foolish.

We did the right thing and we are still waiting for the Emperor of Japan to visit Pearl Harbor, preferably on December 7th and apologize for having started the war.




knothead

knothead

[quote="Markle"]Several Monday morning quarterbacks whining still...but...but...but...!  Sounding like little motorboats.

The proper dropping of the bombs came shortly after the horrendous battle of Okinawa.  The Japanese demonstrated a brutality and level of depravity that was shocking.  In the 81 day battle, over a quarter million fatalities including Japanese, American, and civilians.

The Japanese were taught from childhood that to surrender would dishonor their country and their parents.  The Japanese used the civilians on Okinawa as human shields.  Middle age school boys from 14 to 17 were conscripted to be front line troops.  After the battle, Japan had learned the compassion of the US Soldiers finding it difficult to fire on children.  The law in Japan was immediately changed to allow conscripting of boys 15 and older and girls 17 and older for battle.

American soldiers found it difficult if not impossible to tell the Japanese soldiers from the Okinawa civilians.  Shots fired from residences were returned by our troops knowing full well civilians were in the huts.  It resulted in the indiscriminate shooting of civilians.

Among other losses 12 American destroyers were sunk, 763 aircraft and 225 tanks were destroyed.  Japan's losses were similar.

Retreating, the Japanese would booby trap their wounded soldiers so when a US medic went to assist them, they and anyone around was killed.  The Japanese would also convince civilians that the coming Americans would rape and torture and remaining civilians.  The civilians were convinced to commit suicide and given hand grenades to complete the task.

It was known at the time that Japan would defend their homeland with the same brutality and fierceness as the battle of Okinawa.  The military losses on both sides would be staggering along with civilian losses.

The use of the bombs was both justified and humane.  It also put the rest of the world on notice of a game-changer in the world of war.

Any hindsight is senseless and totally foolish.

We did the right thing and we are still waiting for the Emperor of Japan to visit Pearl Harbor, preferably on December 7th and apologize for having started the war.

I agree with most of Mr. Markle's commentary but I also think the Japanese owe an even larger apology to China for their invasion and killing more than 200,000 civilians many by beheading . . . .

ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

I rarely agree with poster Markle, but his synopsis above is a good one.

The Japanese are now a faithful ally and economic partner. A burgeoning China is pushing them even closer to us, as they fear the growing Chinese power.

The Japanese tolerate Americans in their country, and are friendly for the most part, but aloof. The South Koreans, on the other hand love and respect us to the hilt. They will never forget the sacrifices we made to keep their country out of the Communist orbit. I never went anywhere in South Korea where I was not treated like I was one of their brothers.

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2seaoat



I think Slinger and Mr. Markle have accurately captured the context of America's feelings toward Japan in the summer of 1945, and PK is absolutely correct that his subject has been revisited by academics trying to revise history since the 1970s, and no logical realistic context is applied to these Ivory tower bull chit that our civilian leadership was somehow tricked by a military......the President knew that cities would be targets, he knew that we would give them notice, and certainly these cities did have military value, but the civilian costs were secondary to Americans dying in the invasion......the idea this "new documents and theories" are really new is laughable......been there and done this as my studies of China, North Korea, Mongolia, the Sino Soviet conflict of 1969, and Mika's fathers clear realization in the 1970s that the monolithic Communist threat was a flawed model based on nationalities and history......the role of the soviets at the end of WWII is clearly a continuation of territorial ambitions on a Pacific warm port which the Japanese kicked Imperial Russia's asz, and like today......The territory in North Korea and immediately surrounding the same has been a world hot spot for over a 125 years.

Guest


Guest

And Korea and okinawa and vietnam... they were brutal... but so were russia, germany, even allies. War is hell.

It would be nice if humanity took a long cold sober look at the facts and repercussions... and didn't politicize it.

The USA served a noble cause in wwII... one of the few in history. There's no good reason to degenerate that.

Wordslinger

Wordslinger

In 1955 I was stationed at Haneda (Tokyo International Airport). At the airport which was shared with international carriers, was the home of the 1503rd Military Air Transport Wing. After being there for some six months, I was beginning to learn the language and a girl I met at the Airman's club was a good date to show me the city.

Usually me and my fellow airmen wore civvies when we went to town. But one Sunday when I was to meet Teruko and we were to visit the big Ueno Park Zoo, I wore my class "A's. There was a walkway that led uphill to where the zoo tickets were sold. Directly ahead of me sitting on the concrete walkway was a legless Japanese war vet, begging. He was wearing a Japanese army uniform that was rags. There was no way to avoid facing him.

My mind was racing. What the hell was the right thing to do here? Give the bastard some Yen and salute him? Spit on him? Ten years before my country had beaten the shit out of his, and here I was in the uniform of his worst enemy, with a pretty, young Japanese girl at my side. He saw me coming and looked away. I went past him pretending he didn't exist.

Teruko and I never discussed the incident.

The moment was powerful enough that I remember the situation exactly and in detail, some 61 years later.

Fuck war.

2seaoat



Great story Slinger.......PLEASEEEEEEE tell us more about your youth in the Military and post WWII.....your words and first hand observations are priceless. We can all discuss issues, but you have so much to offer like Hallmark talking about Korea.....or Neko talking about Japan......I live to learn and I appreciate that post and your moral decision that day sixty years ago.

Sal

Sal

PkrBum wrote:And Korea and okinawa and vietnam... they were brutal... but so were russia, germany, even allies. War is hell.

It would be nice if humanity took a long cold sober look at the facts and repercussions... and didn't politicize it.

The USA served a noble cause in wwII... one of the few in history. There's no good reason to degenerate that.

No one has denigrated the cause.

The criticism is of the decision to drop the atomic bombs.

And, as facts emerge from the fog, the criticism is getting louder.

The truth is that the burgeoning MIC had a technology it was eager to display as a measure of the U.S.'s military superiority, and Japanese civilians paid the price.

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