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Pensacola Discussion Forum » Politics » Hey bds: About your claim that the loss of our country's manufacturing employment base has not contributed to decreased government revenues and increased borrowing and debt

Hey bds: About your claim that the loss of our country's manufacturing employment base has not contributed to decreased government revenues and increased borrowing and debt

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ZVUGKTUBM
Markle
boards of FL
Floridatexan
Hospital Bob
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Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

Several months ago,  you posted a graph which claimed to show that.

I was watching Morning Joe earlier,  and Steve Rattner was the guest.
Rattner is not a right-winger.  He was Obama's lead advisor on how to deal with the failing auto industry in 2009.

Rattner put up these two graphs.  The first shows that the U.S. has lost roughly 30% of it's manufacturing jobs since only the year 2000.
The second graph shows which manufacturing sectors have lost the most jobs.

Hey bds: About your claim that the loss of our country's manufacturing employment base has not contributed to decreased government revenues and increased borrowing and debt Chart_10

Hey bds: About your claim that the loss of our country's manufacturing employment base has not contributed to decreased government revenues and increased borrowing and debt Chart210



Last edited by Bob on 2/23/2016, 1:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

I despise this stupid forum software.  Even though I sized it to fit the page,  it fucked up that first chart.
So here it is again...

Hey bds: About your claim that the loss of our country's manufacturing employment base has not contributed to decreased government revenues and increased borrowing and debt Chart310

Floridatexan

Floridatexan


Where did Boards ever say that there wasn't a decline in manufacturing? He said manufacturing is rebounding.

boards of FL

boards of FL


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Markle

Markle

One has to carefully parse the words of BoardsofFL.

I do not recall the thread to which you refer.

Is he talking about the NUMBER of manufacturing jobs or the RATE of manufacturing jobs in America as compared to other jobs?

It all makes a huuuuge difference. What was the population in 1950 and what is the population today?

I'll help you out and it is a massive difference.

US Population in 1950....152.27 million (July 1)

US Population in 2016....321.72 million (Feb.1)

ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

Markle wrote:One has to carefully parse the words of BoardsofFL

Hey bds: About your claim that the loss of our country's manufacturing employment base has not contributed to decreased government revenues and increased borrowing and debt O-POT-MEET-KETTLE-570

http://www.best-electric-barbecue-grills.com

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob


Bull fucking shit,  buddy. 

I wrote more than one post in which I pointed out that our economic decline is tied to fact that we lost our manufacturing jobs to the slave wage countries.

Then you found some graphic that you posted which you used to argue with that.  You used that  chart to argue with me and tell me me our manufacturing jobs have never declined.

Sal

Sal

I've never seen boards make that argument.

boards of FL

boards of FL

Bob wrote:

Bull fucking shit,  buddy. 

I wrote more than one post in which I pointed out that our economic decline is tied to fact that we lost our manufacturing jobs to the slave wage countries.

Then you found some graphic that you posted which you used to argue with that.  You used that  chart to argue with me and tell me me our manufacturing jobs have never declined.


No need to argue over what I said. I just linked you directly to my comments. I clearly explain that manufacturing jobs have been on the decline for over 70 years. Your argument at the time was that it is our transition away from manufacturing jobs that is to blame for our debt. My argument against that idea - which I just linked you to - was that debt accumulation is a relatively recent phenomenon, whereas the shedding of manufacturing jobs has been happening for 70 years - so the two do not appear to be correlated. I also showed you how our debt accumulation does in fact correlate with our tax cuts.


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boards of FL

boards of FL

Hey bds: About your claim that the loss of our country's manufacturing employment base has not contributed to decreased government revenues and increased borrowing and debt Bonbon-dbfbe36b2ab7e3e46f8bdbc19fcc3ada


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Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

boards of FL wrote:.  I clearly explain that manufacturing jobs have been on the decline for over 70 years.  Your argument at the time was that it is our transition away from manufacturing jobs that is to blame for our debt.  My argument against that idea - which I just linked you to - was that debt accumulation is a relatively recent phenomenon, whereas the shedding of manufacturing jobs has been happening for 70 years - so the two do not appear to be correlated.  I also showed you how our debt accumulation does in fact correlate with our tax cuts.  


I just showed you that manufacturing jobs have declined by 30% just since the year 2000.
IF THE FUCKING MANUFACTURING JOBS HAD BEEN DECLINING AT THAT RATE FOR 70 YEARS,  THEY WOULD ALL HAVE DISAPPEARED LONG AGO.

1998 was the last time the federal government had a budget surplus.
Starting right after that is when the good jobs which provided sufficient tax revenues to run the government REALLY started to decline.  And that's when the government REALLy started ratcheting up the borrowing.
Not 70 fucking years ago.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

It's this simple,  punk.  Less paying jobs provide less government tax revenue.
But,  the government kept on spending at the level it did when it had higher tax revenues.
And the only way to do that was to increase borrowing.

And no it's not goddamn fucking different than what happens with a household budget.
Spending is spending.  Borrowing is borrowing.  Doesn't matter if it's a government or a household doing it.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

boards of FL wrote:Hey bds: About your claim that the loss of our country's manufacturing employment base has not contributed to decreased government revenues and increased borrowing and debt Bonbon-dbfbe36b2ab7e3e46f8bdbc19fcc3ada

That's a highly thought provoking post,  punk.  It fits your mentality.

boards of FL

boards of FL

This was my post, Bob.   Seems pretty clear, doesn't it?  

Can you read this and then tell me again the argument you feel I'm making here?


boards of FL wrote:Our economy has been transitioning away from manufacturing for at least 70 years, so your theory there is hilarious.  This isn't rocket science, Bob.  We used to have higher tax rates, less military engagement, and perennial surplus.   Then we cut taxes three times, increased military engagement, and watched that perennial surplus turn into ballooning deficits - which were further exacerbated by the Great Recession.

Your attempt to paint our woes as a symptom of a transition from a manufacturing economy to a service economy is about a laughable (and useful) as your extreme framing of the discussion of debt in this thread.  You don't actually know what you're talking about, and yet you're confidently framing the discussion of debt in the most extreme, useless ways and saying "That is exactly how each side is arguing this".   Well, no.  It isn't.  

This chart indicates manufacturing jobs as a percentage of the entire workforce.  Notice how they have been on the decline for the last 70 years.


Hey bds: About your claim that the loss of our country's manufacturing employment base has not contributed to decreased government revenues and increased borrowing and debt Manufacturing-employment-as-percent-of-employment


Being it the case that these jobs have been on the decline - steadily - for 70 years, we can't really say that the relatively recent increase in debt is due to that decline, can we?  


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boards of FL

boards of FL

More from me on manufacturing jobs.


https://pensacoladiscussion.forumotion.com/t21236-enormous-improvement-in-the-assessment-of-the-labor-market-drives-consumer-confidence-well-beyond-expectations#249362


boards of FL wrote:
gatorfan wrote:
boards of FL wrote:
gatorfan wrote:Just looking at numbers is one story but the types of job gains is quite another. This country is turning into a service industry economy with major losses in manufacturing jobs. You know, the types of jobs that produce high wages for technically competent middle class workers.

But it's much easier to keep it simple......



Manufacturing jobs aren't coming back.  Automation/3D printing is the future.  

If we're going to start calling for a return of manufacturing jobs, why not also for horse and buggy operators or elevator operators?  Why not go back to calling human operators in order to connect callers?  Let's bring back travel agents.  Just think of all of the jobs we would create!  Let's get rid of air-conditioning and replace it with hand delivered, massive blocks of ice and then have people who stand around and fan the room.

Now that's funny, I don't care who you are.... Been reading Popular Mechanics again?

You obviously don't understand "manufacturing" - you should probably stick to your sad little cherry picked numbers game.



I understand manufacturing just fine; hence why I correctly point out that it isn't coming back.  Nor are travel agents, telephone operators, horse and buggy operators, etc.  

This chart depicts manufacturing jobs as a % of all jobs.   Notice how manufacturing declines under Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, and Obama.  I think the key here is that it really doesn't matter which party holds the presidency or what policy is taken, manufacturing isn't coming back.  

Those jobs were at first being outsourced and are now being automated almost entirely.  Eventually 3D printers will be the norm and hardly anyone will work in manufacturing.

Nevertheless, republicans will continue employing the strategy of cornering the market on low information voters and will continue to say things like "Elect me!  I'll bring the manufacturing jobs back!", and then people like you will sprint to the voting booth.


Hey bds: About your claim that the loss of our country's manufacturing employment base has not contributed to decreased government revenues and increased borrowing and debt Manufacturing-employment-as-percent-of-employment


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boards of FL

boards of FL

Bob wrote:
boards of FL wrote:Hey bds: About your claim that the loss of our country's manufacturing employment base has not contributed to decreased government revenues and increased borrowing and debt Bonbon-dbfbe36b2ab7e3e46f8bdbc19fcc3ada

That's a highly thought provoking post,  punk.  It fits your mentality.



Calm down, Bobby. Or I'll have no choice but to reduce your daily Werther's ration.


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Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

boards of FL wrote:

Being it the case that these jobs have been on the decline - steadily - for 70 years, we can't really say that the relatively recent increase in debt is due to that decline, can we?  


Does this look like a steady decline to you?
Notice this chart is showing you exactly what the other chart I posted is showing.  The number of manufacturing jobs fell off the cliff after 2000.
And that's when the government really started increasing the amount of it's borrowing.

Hey bds: About your claim that the loss of our country's manufacturing employment base has not contributed to decreased government revenues and increased borrowing and debt Jobs10

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

And another...

http://cns7prod.s3.amazonaws.com/manufacturing_jobs-peak-chart_0.jpg

I don't know where you got that graph you posted,  but it's obviously a crock of shit.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

And another...

http://michiganeconomy.chicagofedblogs.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Chart6.png

boards of FL

boards of FL

Your charts show us total manufacturing jobs whereas my chart shows us the much more important statistic of manufacturing jobs as a percentage of the overall workforce.  My stat gives us more information than your stat.   My stat gives us a proper frame of reference that allows us to see how our economy has shifted away from manufacturing.  And, as I said, manufacturing jobs as a percentage of the total workforce has clearly been on steady decline for over 70 years.  

And all of this is beside the point that this entire thread is a straw man.  You just made up some argument, attributed it to me, and then went after that argument.  All I have really done here is point out that I never actually made the argument that you're attributing to me.


Hey bds: About your claim that the loss of our country's manufacturing employment base has not contributed to decreased government revenues and increased borrowing and debt Manufacturing-employment-as-percent-of-employment


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Markle

Markle

boards of FL wrote:
Bob wrote:

Bull fucking shit,  buddy. 

I wrote more than one post in which I pointed out that our economic decline is tied to fact that we lost our manufacturing jobs to the slave wage countries.

Then you found some graphic that you posted which you used to argue with that.  You used that  chart to argue with me and tell me me our manufacturing jobs have never declined.

No need to argue over what I said.  I just linked you directly to my comments.  I clearly explain that manufacturing jobs have been on the decline for over 70 years.  Your argument at the time was that it is our transition away from manufacturing jobs that is to blame for our debt.  My argument against that idea - which I just linked you to - was that debt accumulation is a relatively recent phenomenon, whereas the shedding of manufacturing jobs has been happening for 70 years - so the two do not appear to be correlated.  I also showed you how our debt accumulation does in fact correlate with our tax cuts.  

Please show the correlation in our Spending too. Or does increased spending have nothing to with increased debt?

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

boards of FL wrote:Your charts show us total manufacturing jobs whereas my chart shows us the much more important statistic of manufacturing jobs as a percentage of the overall workforce. 

Once again,  we've had a 30% decline in manufacturing jobs since the year 2000.
It was the manufacturing jobs which provided middle class sustaining wages.  And it was those wages which gave the government enough income tax revenues to sustain itself.
Once those jobs have now been replaced with lower wage jobs,  our middle class is shrinking.  And the government has been forced to increase borrowing because the citizenry has demanded government services be maintained even when the revenues were diminishing. 

That is the point,  the whole point,  and nothing but the point.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

boards of FL wrote:Hey bds: About your claim that the loss of our country's manufacturing employment base has not contributed to decreased government revenues and increased borrowing and debt Bonbon-dbfbe36b2ab7e3e46f8bdbc19fcc3ada


Hey bds: About your claim that the loss of our country's manufacturing employment base has not contributed to decreased government revenues and increased borrowing and debt Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ5q552w8KQsJq15odmY6E4klOjzkt4XB0lCRPSNZ5KgJvRBgDR

Guest


Guest

Bob wrote:
boards of FL wrote:Hey bds: About your claim that the loss of our country's manufacturing employment base has not contributed to decreased government revenues and increased borrowing and debt Bonbon-dbfbe36b2ab7e3e46f8bdbc19fcc3ada


Hey bds: About your claim that the loss of our country's manufacturing employment base has not contributed to decreased government revenues and increased borrowing and debt Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ5q552w8KQsJq15odmY6E4klOjzkt4XB0lCRPSNZ5KgJvRBgDR

lol

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

Spending vs Receipts

http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/4e1b069c49e2ae172a000000/us-federal-receipts-and-expenditures-2000-2011.png

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