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May 07, 2001: Democrats making the case that terrorism - not long range missiles - are our greatest threat. I suspect Bush was on vacation.

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gatorfan
ZVUGKTUBM
boards of FL
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boards of FL

boards of FL

http://articles.latimes.com/2001/may/07/news/mn-60383


Just imagine how much different the world would be today had the candidate that the most people voted for actually won.


The signs of incompetence were very apparent very early.


WASHINGTON — Top Bush administration officials on Sunday defended the president's controversial decision to develop a large-scale missile defense system and sought to put the best face on a pair of missteps on foreign policy.

In separate television appearances, National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice and Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld asserted that President Bush's decision to junk the 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty en route to deploying a new defense system was being reasonably received by most nations and would not set off a new arms race.

In the case of one nation that has not reacted well--China--Rumsfeld said the missile plan would make little difference.

"China is going to do what it's going to do," he said on NBC's "Meet the Press." "What we do with respect to ballistic missile defense . . . is not going to affect one whit what the People's Republic of China does."

The comments were the latest evidence that the president intends to move forward with the missile plan, despite an explosion of criticism from Democrats. Bush unveiled his plan Tuesday, saying that threats from nations on the State Department's list of "states of concern" justified abandoning the ABM treaty on which the global nuclear balance has rested for nearly three decades.


Prominent Democrats zeroed in Sunday on key aspects of the administration's arguments. Senate Democratic leader Tom Daschle of South Dakota labeled missile defense "a lemon." It has repeatedly failed technical tests.

Sen. John F. Kerry, a Massachusetts Democrat, said Republicans were wrong in assuming that the system would end the nightmarish policy of mutually assured destruction, which has stopped nuclear powers from using their weapons to date.

"If you have a limited defense that can only shoot down an accidental, unauthorized launch or a rogue nation's missile, you do not get rid of mutually assured destruction. You cannot," he said on NBC.

Kerry said the U.S. faces a far greater threat from terrorists packing bombs or releasing biological weapons in its cities. But Rice, appearing on ABC's "This Week," countered that "no one is saying that one should ignore terrorism or the suitcase bomb. It is a matter of really trying to defend against a full range of threats that would affect America."

On another matter, the Defense secretary sought to extricate the administration from an embarrassing incident in which his department issued a memo saying it was cutting off all military contact between the U.S. and China, only to retract the document hours later and blame Rumsfeld aide Chris Williams for the mix-up.

Rumsfeld asserted that he intended to review interactions between the two nations' militaries and cut off only some contact. Williams wrote a memo that was interpreted as ordering a complete cutoff.

"There is no question that I made a mistake. A mistake was made," Rumsfeld said. "Chris Williams is . . . a world-class person. . . . To the extent there is any fault to be assigned, it certainly is as much mine as anyone else's."

The memo comes atop the president's own apparent zigzag on how far the U.S. would go to defend Taiwan against Chinese military force. The combination has produced a torrent of criticism that has been especially stinging because of administration claims that its foreign policy team is made up of "adults," in contrast to what it saw as the inexperience of the Clinton team.

Among the critics was William Kristol, conservative publisher of the Weekly Standard, whose magazine in a recent edition blasted the administration in an editorial for making "a mess."

"So the adults are in charge," the editorial said, "and yet our policy on the most important strategic question of the coming decade--how to deal with the rising power of China--grows more incoherent with each passing week."


Bush told a television interviewer two weeks ago that the U.S. would do "whatever it took to help" Taiwan and that deployment of U.S. troops is "certainly an option." His comments were taken as an abrupt change in U.S. policy, until the administration hastened to say that nothing was different.


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boards of FL

boards of FL

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2001/08/09/daschle-speech-criticizes-bush-missile-defense.html


Still pressing the issue in August 2001 while Bush was spending the entire month on vacation.

The events that followed were terrible for Americans, terrible for the world, but probably the best thing that could have happened to the republican party. And there is no rational argument to be made against that statement.


President Bush has shown a willingness to walk away from international agreements backed by America's allies during his first six months in office, Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle said Thursday in his first foreign policy speech since becoming majority leader.

"Instead of asserting our leadership, we are abdicating it," Daschle, D-S.D., said. "Instead of shaping international agreements to serve our interests, we have removed ourselves from a position to shape them at all."

In remarks prepared for delivery to the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars, Daschle also criticized Bush for placing too great an emphasis on a missile defense system, and took him to task for relying too heavily on a personal impression of Russian leader Vladimir Putin.

"The stakes are too high to base our strategic relationship on one man's assessment of another man's soul," he said, referring to favorable comments Bush made after meeting Putin.

White House spokesman Scott McClellan said Daschle was himself obstructing international cooperation by pressing for tougher standards on Mexican trucks entering this country than the standards envisioned in NAFTA. McClellan also called on Daschle to support broad new trade-negotiating powers for the president, a matter Congress will consider this fall.

"The Senate majority leader is welcome to express his views," McClellan said Thursday. "But I think those views should be put in the overall context, and nowhere is there a better example of working with other countries than when it comes to trade."

Daschle has focused his public efforts almost exclusively on domestic issues since June, when he became majority leader in the wake of a switch in party control of the Senate and when speculation began to increase that he might become a contender for the White House in 2004.

While he has fielded questions on foreign policy periodically in interviews or news conferences, an aide said he consulted with former Clinton administration officials Sandy Berger and Richard Holbrooke in crafting his speech.

In his remarks, Daschle said Bush had walked away from the Anti-Ballistic Missile treaty and the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty as well as agreements on greenhouse gases, biological weapons and other issues.

"If we continue down this path, our allies will be forced to fill the void we leave, not necessarily with our interests uppermost in their minds," he said.

"It is not enough, as President Bush has suggested, simply to send U.S. officials to international meetings. ... Woody Allen wasn't talking about foreign policy when he said that '85 percent of life is just showing up."'

Daschle also criticized Bush extensively on the administration's plans for developing and deploying a nationwide defense against long-range missiles. The White House has yet to persuade Moscow to scrap or amend the 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile treaty that prohibits such defenses. On its current schedule, the Pentagon is due to come in conflict with legal restrictions in a matter of months. In the spring, for example, the Pentagon may start construction at Fort Greely, Alaska, of underground silos for missile interceptors.

"Democrats support mutually agreed-upon modifications to the ABM treaty and a robust national missile defense testing program," Daschle said. "Under the right circumstances, we could support deployment of a limited national missile defense."

But he said administration was planning "the most expensive possible response to the least likely threat we face."

He added, "The chief threats today come from biological and chemical weapons and bombs that could be smuggled in a cargo container, bus or backpack."

Bush's budget, Daschle said, calls for a 57 percent increase in spending on missile defense this year, and other large increases in future years, far above the overall 10 percent increase targeted for the Pentagon. The result would be to "cannibalize the personnel and force structure that deal with the threats we are more likely to face."

He said holding the first year's increase for missile defense to 10 percent, for example, would make $2.5 billion available for a variety of defense and national security programs. They include a restoration of funds for the program to help Russia destroy its nuclear weapons, increased funding for development of cruise missile defense, and a greater emphasis on counterterrorism and cyber-terrorism.

It would also allow a greater effort on "developing and deploying theater missile defenses, which will be needed tomorrow to protect our soldiers if we are thrust into another Gulf-like war," he said.


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ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

Good posts, Boards; and oddly, the leading GOP candidate for the 2016 election (Trump) keeps making light of George Bush's failure to see the attacks coming.

Standby.... semi-demented poster Markle will now claim, once again, that a low-level staffer from the Clinton administration, who left the government in 1997, is the primary cause for the reason Bush missed signs of the pending attacks..... LOL!

http://www.best-electric-barbecue-grills.com

boards of FL

boards of FL

Bush did not keep us safer. Bush got sworn in, mailed it in, and then went on vacation. And all the while republicans had no concept of what our real threats were at the time (or, perhaps they did but were only concerned with defense contractor profits).

When all of that came to a head on 09/11/01, the response was even worse. There again, republicans exhibited an inability to correctly identify our true threats (or, perhaps they did but were only concerned with defense contractor profits). So we ended up with the war in Iraq and, now, ISIS.

Oh, and the economy and federal budget went to absolute shit during that administration as well.

Republicans suck on the economy. Republicans suck on the budget. Republicans suck on defense. Republican suck on taxes. Republicans.... Etc. Etc.


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ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

boards of FL wrote:Republicans suck on the economy. Republicans suck on the budget. Republicans suck on defense.  Republican suck on taxes. Republicans.... Etc. Etc.

I agree that Republicans just 'suck' in general... Yet they claim they are more qualified to lead for 2016. Someone has to first pull away from the crowded field of GOP contenders, and prove to the voters they are the real-deal.

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gatorfan



Ah, nothing better than 20-20 eyesight and an armchair quarterback.

I challenge anyone to explain how they could have prevented determined suiciders from doing what they did on 9/11. You can't. "Trump the Trumpet" couldn't have either; that dude is a freak show.

Why hasn't Obama changed tactics (other than some tweaking and schedule adjustments) from the Shrubs missile defense program? Perhaps, unlike you, he realizes you have to plan against a spectrum of threats and not just one. You know, like Susan Rice said in the article cited.

How was Libya a threat when HRC orchestrated its destruction?
How many troops will Obama end up sending to Africa? Is Boko a threat to the U.S.?
Syria, a total mess and a total intelligence and military failure. Obamas fault. Now a proxy war with Russia - he never saw that coming.
How is that "Arab Spring" thing coming along?

I could go on but partisan hacks like several of you on here don't respond to facts anyway so what's the point.

boards of FL

boards of FL

gatorfan wrote:Ah, nothing better than 20-20 eyesight and an armchair quarterback.

I challenge anyone to explain how they could have prevented determined suiciders from doing what they did on 9/11. You can't. "Trump the Trumpet" couldn't have either; that dude is a freak show.

Why hasn't Obama changed tactics (other than some tweaking and schedule adjustments) from the Shrubs missile defense program? Perhaps, unlike you, he realizes you have to plan against a spectrum of threats and not just one. You know, like Susan Rice said in the article cited.

How was Libya a threat when HRC orchestrated its destruction?
How many troops will Obama end up sending to Africa? Is Boko a threat to the U.S.?
Syria, a total mess and a total intelligence and military failure. Obamas fault. Now a proxy war with Russia - he never saw that coming.
How is that "Arab Spring" thing coming along?

I could go on but partisan hacks like several of you on here don't respond to facts anyway so what's the point.



The insights that I'm providing here aren't mine, nor are they hindsight.  I'm showing you that, prior to 9/11, republicans had their eyes on what they thought was the ball and democrats had their eyes on what they thought was the ball.  Republicans, who were wrong, thought that long range missiles with a clear and obvious return address were our greatest threat.  Dealing with that threat, coincidentally, would have meant big bucks for defense contractors.   Meanwhile, democrats, who were correct, were telling us that terrorism was our chief threat.

The same applies to economic policy.

Prior to the tax cuts, republicans - who were wrong - said that they would stimulate the economy to such a degree that the budget would be of no concern.  Democrats - who were right - were telling us that they would cut revenues and lead to ballooning deficits.  Well, republicans got their tax cuts and then we proceeded to watch our perennial surpluses turn into ballooning deficits.

Regarding your comments on Libya, Africa, and Syria, those are the democratic alternatives to full scale occupations that republicans would have us involved in.  As bad as you may think they are, they are clearly better than the republican alternative.  


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gatorfan



boards of FL wrote:
gatorfan wrote:Ah, nothing better than 20-20 eyesight and an armchair quarterback.

I challenge anyone to explain how they could have prevented determined suiciders from doing what they did on 9/11. You can't. "Trump the Trumpet" couldn't have either; that dude is a freak show.

Why hasn't Obama changed tactics (other than some tweaking and schedule adjustments) from the Shrubs missile defense program? Perhaps, unlike you, he realizes you have to plan against a spectrum of threats and not just one. You know, like Susan Rice said in the article cited.

How was Libya a threat when HRC orchestrated its destruction?
How many troops will Obama end up sending to Africa? Is Boko a threat to the U.S.?
Syria, a total mess and a total intelligence and military failure. Obamas fault. Now a proxy war with Russia - he never saw that coming.
How is that "Arab Spring" thing coming along?

I could go on but partisan hacks like several of you on here don't respond to facts anyway so what's the point.



The insights that I'm providing here aren't mine, nor are they hindsight.  I'm showing you that, prior to 9/11, republicans had their eyes on what they thought was the ball and democrats had their eyes on what they thought was the ball.  Republicans, who were wrong, thought that long range missiles with a clear and obvious return address were our greatest threat.  Dealing with that threat, coincidentally, would have meant big bucks for defense contractors.   Meanwhile, democrats, who were correct, were telling us that terrorism was our chief threat.

The same applies to economic policy.

Prior to the tax cuts, republicans - who were wrong - said that they would stimulate the economy to such a degree that the budget would be of no concern.  Democrats - who were right - were telling us that they would cut revenues and lead to ballooning deficits.  Well, republicans got their tax cuts and then we proceeded to watch our perennial surpluses turn into ballooning deficits.

Regarding your comments on Libya, Africa, and Syria, those are the democratic alternatives to full scale occupations that republicans would have us involved in.  As bad as you may think they are, they are clearly better than the republican alternative.  

Miss this little snippet in my post or are you just cherry picking again?

"Perhaps, unlike you, he (speaking of Obama) realizes you have to plan against a spectrum of threats and not just one. You know, like Susan Rice said in the article cited."

In short, apparently the R's thought terrorism was a threat too and stated that fact.

Face it, I know you're a rabidly partisan democrat but neither the R's nor the D's are right or wrong all the time. The best one can hope for is "right some of the time".

That's why I can't see how someone ties themselves so blindly to one party, unless they really don't understand politics.

boards of FL

boards of FL

gatorfan wrote:
boards of FL wrote:
gatorfan wrote:Ah, nothing better than 20-20 eyesight and an armchair quarterback.

I challenge anyone to explain how they could have prevented determined suiciders from doing what they did on 9/11. You can't. "Trump the Trumpet" couldn't have either; that dude is a freak show.

Why hasn't Obama changed tactics (other than some tweaking and schedule adjustments) from the Shrubs missile defense program? Perhaps, unlike you, he realizes you have to plan against a spectrum of threats and not just one. You know, like Susan Rice said in the article cited.

How was Libya a threat when HRC orchestrated its destruction?
How many troops will Obama end up sending to Africa? Is Boko a threat to the U.S.?
Syria, a total mess and a total intelligence and military failure. Obamas fault. Now a proxy war with Russia - he never saw that coming.
How is that "Arab Spring" thing coming along?

I could go on but partisan hacks like several of you on here don't respond to facts anyway so what's the point.



The insights that I'm providing here aren't mine, nor are they hindsight.  I'm showing you that, prior to 9/11, republicans had their eyes on what they thought was the ball and democrats had their eyes on what they thought was the ball.  Republicans, who were wrong, thought that long range missiles with a clear and obvious return address were our greatest threat.  Dealing with that threat, coincidentally, would have meant big bucks for defense contractors.   Meanwhile, democrats, who were correct, were telling us that terrorism was our chief threat.

The same applies to economic policy.

Prior to the tax cuts, republicans - who were wrong - said that they would stimulate the economy to such a degree that the budget would be of no concern.  Democrats - who were right - were telling us that they would cut revenues and lead to ballooning deficits.  Well, republicans got their tax cuts and then we proceeded to watch our perennial surpluses turn into ballooning deficits.

Regarding your comments on Libya, Africa, and Syria, those are the democratic alternatives to full scale occupations that republicans would have us involved in.  As bad as you may think they are, they are clearly better than the republican alternative.  

Miss this little snippet in my post or are you just cherry picking again?

"Perhaps, unlike you, he (speaking of Obama) realizes you have to plan against a spectrum of threats and not just one. You know, like Susan Rice said in the article cited."

In short, apparently the R's thought terrorism was a threat too and stated that fact.

Face it, I know you're a rabidly partisan democrat but neither the R's nor the D's are right or wrong all the time. The best one can hope for is "right some of the time".

That's why I can't see how someone ties themselves so blindly to one party, unless they really don't understand politics.



I didn't miss anything. You're having trouble reading again.

Republicans made it very clear that our chief threat - read:  our chief, greatest, most worthy threat - was a long range missile with an obvious return address from some other sovereign nation.  They were wrong on that.  You agree that they were wrong on that, right?  

Note that I'm not saying that republicans discounted terrorism entirely.  What I'm saying is that democrats had identified terrorism as our chief threat whereas republicans had identified long range missiles from sovereign nations as our chief threat.  

Now, gatorfan, you agree that the democrats were correct in that regard, right?  With respect to national defense pre-9/11, the democrats had a better handle on our true threats, didn't they?


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TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

ONLY an idiot would believe this wasn't a controlled demolition. So Bush hid in an elementary school as an alibi....inside Job all the way..

May 07, 2001:  Democrats making the case that terrorism - not long range missiles - are our greatest threat.  I suspect Bush was on vacation. ?u=http%3A%2F%2Fpassivevoices.files.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F09%2Fwtc-7

Steel buildings don't melt like ice cream....

Sal

Sal

gatorfan wrote:
Face it, I know you're a rabidly partisan democrat but neither the R's nor the D's are right or wrong all the time. The best one can hope for is "right some of the time".

The Republicans haven't met that threshold for decades.

Can you name any area of policy disagreement where the Republicans held the superior position in the last thirty plus years?

gatorfan



boards of FL wrote:
gatorfan wrote:
boards of FL wrote:
gatorfan wrote:Ah, nothing better than 20-20 eyesight and an armchair quarterback.

I challenge anyone to explain how they could have prevented determined suiciders from doing what they did on 9/11. You can't. "Trump the Trumpet" couldn't have either; that dude is a freak show.

Why hasn't Obama changed tactics (other than some tweaking and schedule adjustments) from the Shrubs missile defense program? Perhaps, unlike you, he realizes you have to plan against a spectrum of threats and not just one. You know, like Susan Rice said in the article cited.

How was Libya a threat when HRC orchestrated its destruction?
How many troops will Obama end up sending to Africa? Is Boko a threat to the U.S.?
Syria, a total mess and a total intelligence and military failure. Obamas fault. Now a proxy war with Russia - he never saw that coming.
How is that "Arab Spring" thing coming along?

I could go on but partisan hacks like several of you on here don't respond to facts anyway so what's the point.



The insights that I'm providing here aren't mine, nor are they hindsight.  I'm showing you that, prior to 9/11, republicans had their eyes on what they thought was the ball and democrats had their eyes on what they thought was the ball.  Republicans, who were wrong, thought that long range missiles with a clear and obvious return address were our greatest threat.  Dealing with that threat, coincidentally, would have meant big bucks for defense contractors.   Meanwhile, democrats, who were correct, were telling us that terrorism was our chief threat.

The same applies to economic policy.

Prior to the tax cuts, republicans - who were wrong - said that they would stimulate the economy to such a degree that the budget would be of no concern.  Democrats - who were right - were telling us that they would cut revenues and lead to ballooning deficits.  Well, republicans got their tax cuts and then we proceeded to watch our perennial surpluses turn into ballooning deficits.

Regarding your comments on Libya, Africa, and Syria, those are the democratic alternatives to full scale occupations that republicans would have us involved in.  As bad as you may think they are, they are clearly better than the republican alternative.  

Miss this little snippet in my post or are you just cherry picking again?

"Perhaps, unlike you, he (speaking of Obama) realizes you have to plan against a spectrum of threats and not just one. You know, like Susan Rice said in the article cited."

In short, apparently the R's thought terrorism was a threat too and stated that fact.

Face it, I know you're a rabidly partisan democrat but neither the R's nor the D's are right or wrong all the time. The best one can hope for is "right some of the time".

That's why I can't see how someone ties themselves so blindly to one party, unless they really don't understand politics.



I didn't miss anything.  You're having trouble reading again.

Not at all but you are having trouble taking the whole thread in context while having no problem ignoring glaring holes in your broad statements.

Republicans made it very clear that our chief threat - read:  our chief, greatest, most worthy threat - was a long range missile with an obvious return address from some other sovereign nation.  They were wrong on that.  You agree that they were wrong on that, right?  

Where did they say that? Didn't Susan Rice state terrorism was ALSO a threat? They must not have been completely wrong (if at all since it takes years to develop effective counters) since Obama continues down the same road.

I'll ask you again, why?

Note that I'm not saying that republicans discounted terrorism entirely.  What I'm saying is that democrats had identified terrorism as our chief threat whereas republicans had identified long range missiles from sovereign nations as our chief threat.

You're reading too much into several comments made by individuals while ignoring the overarching issues and resolution approaches. In short, you're speculating.  

Now, gatorfan, you agree that the democrats were correct in that regard, right?  With respect to national defense pre-9/11, the democrats had a better handle on our true threats, didn't they?

Not at all, if they did Clinton would have done some things differently too. Also you do realize the terrorist threat changes constantly. I think both D's and R's had a reasonable handle on the threat situation albeit with some different priorities although going full out in the terrorist bomb threat or BM threat direction really isn't as significant as you think. They were doing both just as Obama is doing both.

Now can you answer the other question I had since you seem to feel you have proper insight, how would YOU - BOF, have prevented 9/11 if you were king for a day?

boards of FL

boards of FL

Is the quote feature really that tough?


gatorfan wrote:Where did they say that? Didn't Susan Rice state terrorism was ALSO a threat? They must not have been completely wrong (if at all since it takes years to develop effective counters) since Obama continues down the same road.

I'll ask you again, why?



Their actions said that.  The fact that - leading up to 9/11 - any time you heard them discuss national security the chief discussion point was the missile defense system.  That was their flagship policy that they were hammering right away.  The opposition to that line of reasoning came from democrats who were correctly identifying terrorism as our chief threat, and thus were stating that the missile defense system would be an ineffective waste of money.  And the democrats were correct in that regard.

Let me state this one more time since you clearly missed it before when I explicitly stated as much.  I never said that republicans discounted terrorism entirely.  I said that it was obvious - based on their actions - that republicans viewed long range missiles from sovereign nations as our chief threat.  We didn't see republicans in chorus talking to the media about terrorism and the sorts of policies they wanted to adopt to combat terrorism.  Instead, we saw republicans in chorus selling a missile defense shield that would have violated international treaties, brought big bucks to defense contractors, and that would have ignored our chief threat of terrorism entirely.



gatorfan wrote:You're reading too much into several comments made by individuals while ignoring the overarching issues and resolution approaches. In short, you're speculating.



The republicans campaigned in the media for their missile defense shield all the way up to 9/11, and then they miraculously decided that perhaps terrorism did in fact represent the chief threat to the US.  It's not as if there were only a few comments here and there that would suggest the republicans viewed the missile defense system as a top priority.  They were out in full force selling this in the media while democrats were regularly providing the voice of reason and correctly identifying our chief threat.



gatorfan wrote:Now can you answer the other question I had since you seem to feel you have proper insight, how would YOU - BOF, have prevented 9/11 if you were king for a day?



1.  I wouldn't have spent an entire month or more on vacation during my first year in office.  

2.  I wouldn't have tried to score government revenue streams for defense contractors at the expense of national security (missile defense system).

3.  I wouldn't have ignored numerous reports that identified the seriousness of the threat of terrorism.


I could probably think of more, though those three would have been a good start.  

And then if 9/11 had still happened anyways, I wouldn't have tried to score big government revenue streams for defense contractors at the expense of national security (war in Iraq).  I would have instead focused on bin Laden and seen to it that he was captured or killed immediately rather than waiting for the next democrat to arrive in office.

Put another way, I would have simply put the needs of the country over the needs of special interest.


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gatorfan



boards of FL wrote:Is the quote feature really that tough?


gatorfan wrote:Where did they say that? Didn't Susan Rice state terrorism was ALSO a threat? They must not have been completely wrong (if at all since it takes years to develop effective counters) since Obama continues down the same road.

I'll ask you again, why?



Their actions said that.  The fact that - leading up to 9/11 - any time you heard them discuss national security the chief discussion point was the missile defense system.  That was their flagship policy that they were hammering right away.  The opposition to that line of reasoning came from democrats who were correctly identifying terrorism as our chief threat, and thus were stating that the missile defense system would be an ineffective waste of money.  And the democrats were correct in that regard.

Let me state this one more time since you clearly missed it before when I explicitly stated as much.  I never said that republicans discounted terrorism entirely.  I said that it was obvious - based on their actions - that republicans viewed long range missiles from sovereign nations as our chief threat.  We didn't see republicans in chorus talking to the media about terrorism and the sorts of policies they wanted to adopt to combat terrorism.  Instead, we saw republicans in chorus selling a missile defense shield that would have violated international treaties, brought big bucks to defense contractors, and that would have ignored our chief threat of terrorism entirely.



gatorfan wrote:You're reading too much into several comments made by individuals while ignoring the overarching issues and resolution approaches. In short, you're speculating.



The republicans campaigned in the media for their missile defense shield all the way up to 9/11, and then they miraculously decided that perhaps terrorism did in fact represent the chief threat to the US.  It's not as if there were only a few comments here and there that would suggest the republicans viewed the missile defense system as a top priority.  They were out in full force selling this in the media while democrats were regularly providing the voice of reason and correctly identifying our chief threat.



gatorfan wrote:Now can you answer the other question I had since you seem to feel you have proper insight, how would YOU - BOF, have prevented 9/11 if you were king for a day?



1.  I wouldn't have spent an entire month or more on vacation during my first year in office.  

2.  I wouldn't have tried to score government revenue streams for defense contractors at the expense of national security (missile defense system).

3.  I wouldn't have ignored numerous reports that identified the seriousness of the threat of terrorism.


I could probably think of more, though those three would have been a good start.  

And then if 9/11 had still happened anyways, I wouldn't have tried to score big government revenue streams for defense contractors at the expense of national security (war in Iraq).  I would have instead focused on bin Laden and seen to it that he was captured or killed immediately rather than waiting for the next democrat to arrive in office.  

Put another way, I would have simply put the needs of the country over the needs of special interest.  

Given your King for a Day pass you would have failed. There is no effective way to counter a terrorist who can maintain secrecy and is willing to die. The Shrub was wrong about Iraq, actually not just wrong, but totally stupid about it.

As for OBL, Clinton had the opportunity to nail the SOB but didn't although I can't say I blame him given the circumstances. It's doubtful that would have stopped 9/11 anyway since it was obviously a large well planned operation with many layers. The effort to pinpoint OBL after the missed opportunity took ten years and thousands of man hours etc. In the end a Doctor pinpointed OBL and was thrown under the bus by Obama who made no serious effort to get him out of there.

boards of FL

boards of FL

gatorfan wrote:
boards of FL wrote:Is the quote feature really that tough?


gatorfan wrote:Where did they say that? Didn't Susan Rice state terrorism was ALSO a threat? They must not have been completely wrong (if at all since it takes years to develop effective counters) since Obama continues down the same road.

I'll ask you again, why?



Their actions said that.  The fact that - leading up to 9/11 - any time you heard them discuss national security the chief discussion point was the missile defense system.  That was their flagship policy that they were hammering right away.  The opposition to that line of reasoning came from democrats who were correctly identifying terrorism as our chief threat, and thus were stating that the missile defense system would be an ineffective waste of money.  And the democrats were correct in that regard.

Let me state this one more time since you clearly missed it before when I explicitly stated as much.  I never said that republicans discounted terrorism entirely.  I said that it was obvious - based on their actions - that republicans viewed long range missiles from sovereign nations as our chief threat.  We didn't see republicans in chorus talking to the media about terrorism and the sorts of policies they wanted to adopt to combat terrorism.  Instead, we saw republicans in chorus selling a missile defense shield that would have violated international treaties, brought big bucks to defense contractors, and that would have ignored our chief threat of terrorism entirely.



gatorfan wrote:You're reading too much into several comments made by individuals while ignoring the overarching issues and resolution approaches. In short, you're speculating.



The republicans campaigned in the media for their missile defense shield all the way up to 9/11, and then they miraculously decided that perhaps terrorism did in fact represent the chief threat to the US.  It's not as if there were only a few comments here and there that would suggest the republicans viewed the missile defense system as a top priority.  They were out in full force selling this in the media while democrats were regularly providing the voice of reason and correctly identifying our chief threat.



gatorfan wrote:Now can you answer the other question I had since you seem to feel you have proper insight, how would YOU - BOF, have prevented 9/11 if you were king for a day?



1.  I wouldn't have spent an entire month or more on vacation during my first year in office.  

2.  I wouldn't have tried to score government revenue streams for defense contractors at the expense of national security (missile defense system).

3.  I wouldn't have ignored numerous reports that identified the seriousness of the threat of terrorism.


I could probably think of more, though those three would have been a good start.  

And then if 9/11 had still happened anyways, I wouldn't have tried to score big government revenue streams for defense contractors at the expense of national security (war in Iraq).  I would have instead focused on bin Laden and seen to it that he was captured or killed immediately rather than waiting for the next democrat to arrive in office.  

Put another way, I would have simply put the needs of the country over the needs of special interest.  

Given your King for a Day pass you would have failed. There is no effective way to counter a terrorist who can maintain secrecy and is willing to die. The Shrub was wrong about Iraq, actually not just wrong, but totally stupid about it.

As for OBL, Clinton had the opportunity to nail the SOB but didn't although I can't say I blame him given the circumstances. It's doubtful that would have stopped 9/11 anyway since it was obviously a large well planned operation with many layers. The effort to pinpoint OBL after the missed opportunity took ten years and thousands of man hours etc. In the end a Doctor pinpointed OBL and was thrown under the bus by Obama who made no serious effort to get him out of there.



In the end, we were engaged in two wars/occupations (only one of which actually addressed national security, the other addressed special interest), bin Laden was still at large, we had witnessed perennial budget surpluses turn into the worst fiscal deficit in US history, we had the worst economy since the great depression, the president had one of the lowest approval ratings of all time, the number of uninsured Americans was steadily on the rise, world support was waning significantly, etc., etc.

Everything has improved markedly since then.  That is why we now have the luxury of arguing over things like funding Planned Parenthood, whether or not to fly the rebel flag over government buildings, gay marriage, etc. during this upcoming election style instead of worrying about issues like how to avoid an economic depression, how to prevent the US from falling off the brink entirely, how to evacuate the two wars in the middle east, how to find bin Laden, how to save our entire financial system, how to save our entire automotive industry, etc., etc.


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There WAS NO FOOTAGE OF THE FIRST PLANE HITTING THE BUILDING IN TV.

TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

Sal

Sal

Salinsky wrote:
gatorfan wrote:
Face it, I know you're a rabidly partisan democrat but neither the R's nor the D's are right or wrong all the time. The best one can hope for is "right some of the time".

The Republicans haven't met that threshold for decades.

Can you name any area of policy disagreement where the Republicans held the superior position in the last thirty plus years?

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Markle

Markle

boards of FL wrote:Bush did not keep us safer.  Bush got sworn in, mailed it in, and then went on vacation.  And all the while republicans had no concept of what our real threats were at the time (or, perhaps they did but were only concerned with defense contractor profits).  

When all of that came to a head on 09/11/01, the response was even worse.  There again, republicans exhibited an inability to correctly identify our true threats (or, perhaps they did but were only concerned with defense contractor profits).  So we ended up with the war in Iraq and, now, ISIS.

Oh, and the economy and federal budget went to absolute shit during that administration as well.

Republicans suck on the economy.  Republicans suck on the budget.  Republicans suck on defense.  Republican suck on taxes.  Republicans.... Etc. Etc.

Where was President Bush when he was on "vacation"?

Your, and your fellow far left Progressives desperation is duly noted...again.

Markle

Markle

TEOTWAWKI wrote:ONLY an idiot would believe this wasn't a controlled demolition. So Bush hid in an elementary school as an alibi....inside Job all the way..

May 07, 2001:  Democrats making the case that terrorism - not long range missiles - are our greatest threat.  I suspect Bush was on vacation. ?u=http%3%2F%2Fpassivevoices.files.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F09%2Fwtc-7

Steel buildings don't melt like ice cream....

Nope, they don't melt like ice cream by steel is certainly weakened greatly by intense heat.

I learned that in one year of metal shop in the 9th grade.  A shame you and the other conspiracy theorists did not.

boards of FL

boards of FL

Markle wrote:
boards of FL wrote:Bush did not keep us safer.  Bush got sworn in, mailed it in, and then went on vacation.  And all the while republicans had no concept of what our real threats were at the time (or, perhaps they did but were only concerned with defense contractor profits).  

When all of that came to a head on 09/11/01, the response was even worse.  There again, republicans exhibited an inability to correctly identify our true threats (or, perhaps they did but were only concerned with defense contractor profits).  So we ended up with the war in Iraq and, now, ISIS.

Oh, and the economy and federal budget went to absolute shit during that administration as well.

Republicans suck on the economy.  Republicans suck on the budget.  Republicans suck on defense.  Republican suck on taxes.  Republicans.... Etc. Etc.

Where was President Bush when he was on "vacation"?

Your, and your fellow far left Progressives desperation is duly noted...again.



My guess is that he was at his ranch. Have you anything to add to the discussion at hand?


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boards of FL

boards of FL

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/10/did-george-w-bush-do-all-he-could-to-prevent-911/411175/


Donald Trump utters plenty of ugly untruths: that undocumented Mexican immigrants are “rapists,” that Syrian refugees are committing “all sorts of attacks” in Germany and represent a “Trojan Horse” for ISIS. But he tells ugly truths too: that “when you give [politicians money], they do whatever the hell you want them to do.” And that “the Middle East would be safer” if Saddam Hussein and Muammer Qaddafi were still in power.

His latest ugly truth came during a Bloomberg TV interview last Friday, when he said George W. Bush deserves responsibility for the fact that “the World Trade Center came down during his time.” Politicians and journalists erupted in indignation. Jeb Bush called Trump’s comments “pathetic.” Ben Carson dubbed them “ridiculous.”

Former Bush flack Ari Fleischer called Trump a 9/11 “truther.” Even Stephanie Ruhle, the Bloomberg anchor who asked the question, cried, “Hold on, you can’t blame George Bush for that.”

Oh yes, you can. There’s no way of knowing for sure if Bush could have stopped the September 11 attacks. But that’s not the right question. The right question is: Did Bush do everything he could reasonably have to stop them, given what he knew at the time? And he didn’t. It’s not even close.

When the Bush administration took office in January 2001, CIA Director George Tenet and National Security Council counterterrorism “czar” Richard Clarke both warned its incoming officials that al-Qaeda represented a grave threat. During a transition briefing early that month at Blair House, according to Bob Woodward’s Bush at War, Tenet and his deputy James Pavitt listed Osama bin Laden as one of America’s three most serious national-security challenges. That same month, Clarke presented National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice with a plan he had been working on since al-Qaeda’s attack on the USS Cole the previous October. It called for freezing the network’s assets, closing affiliated charities, funneling money to the governments of Uzbekistan, the Philippines and Yemen to fight al-Qaeda cells in their country, initiating air strikes and covert operations against al-Qaeda sites in Afghanistan, and dramatically increasing aid to the Northern Alliance, which was battling al-Qaeda and the Taliban there.

But both Clarke and Tenet grew deeply frustrated by the way top Bush officials responded. Clarke recounts that when he briefed Rice about al-Qaeda, “her facial expression gave me the impression that she had never heard the term before.” On January 25, Clarke sent Rice a memo declaring that, “we urgently need…a Principals [Cabinet] level review on the al Qida [sic] network.” Instead, Clarke got a sub-cabinet, Deputies level, meeting in April, two months after the one on Iraq.

When that April meeting finally occurred, according to Clarke’s book, Against All Enemies, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz objected that “I just don’t understand why we are beginning by talking about this one man, bin Laden.” Clarke responded that, “We are talking about a network of terrorist organizations called al-Qaeda, that happens to be led by bin Laden, and we are talking about that network because it and it alone poses an immediate and serious threat to the United States.” To which Wolfowitz replied, “Well, there are others that do as well, at least as much. Iraqi terrorism for example.”

By early summer, Clarke was so despondent that he asked to be reassigned. “This administration,” he later testified, “didn’t either believe me that there was an urgent problem or was unprepared to act as though there were an urgent problem. And I thought, if the administration doesn’t believe its national coordinator for counterterrorism when he says there’s an urgent problem and if it’s unprepared to act as though there’s an urgent problem, then probably I should get another job.” In July, the Deputies Committee finally agreed to schedule a Principals level meeting on Clarke’s plan. But the schedule for July was already full, and in August too many Cabinet members were on vacation, so the meeting was set for September.

During that same time period, the CIA was raising alarms too. According to Kurt Eichenwald, a former New York Times reporter given access to the Daily Briefs prepared by the intelligence agencies for President Bush in the spring and summer of 2001, the CIA told the White House by May 1 that “a group presently in the United States” was planning a terrorist attack. On June 22, the Daily Brief warned that al-Qaeda strikes might be “imminent.”

But the same Defense Department officials who discounted Clarke’s warnings pushed back against the CIA’s. According to Eichenwald’s sources, “the neoconservative leaders who had recently assumed power at the Pentagon were warning the White House that the C.I.A. had been fooled; according to this theory, Bin Laden was merely pretending to be planning an attack to distract the administration from Saddam Hussein, whom the neoconservatives saw as a greater threat.”

The CIA fought back. “The U.S. is not the target of a disinformation campaign by Usama Bin Laden,” declared the Daily Brief on June 29, noting that the al-Qaeda leader had recently told a Middle Eastern journalist to expect an attack. The following day, the CIA included in its Daily Brief an article entitled “Bin Laden Threats Are Real.” On July 1, the Brief predicted that an attack “will occur soon.”

Then, on July 10, Tenet and CIA counterterrorism head Cofer Black held an emergency meeting with Rice to push for action against Bin Laden. But according to Woodward’s State of Denial, “both felt they were not getting through to Rice.” She “seemed focused on other administration priorities, especially the ballistic defense missile system that Bush had campaigned on” and “Tenet left the meeting feeling frustrated.”

By this point, staffers at CIA counterterrorism headquarters had grown so dejected that they, like Clarke, debated asking for a transfer.

The warnings continued. On July 11, the CIA sent word to the White House that a Chechen with links to al-Qaeda had warned that something big was coming. On July 24, the Daily Brief said the expected al-Qaeda attack had been postponed but was still being planned. Finally, on August 6, the CIA titled its Daily Brief: “Bin Ladin Determined to Strike the US.” The briefing didn’t mention a specific date or target, but it did mention the possibility of attack in New York and mentioned that the terrorists might hijack airplanes. In Angler, Barton Gellman notes that it was the 36th time the CIA had raised al-Qaeda with President Bush since he took office.

On September 4, the Cabinet met and despite Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld’s insistence that Iraq represented the greater terrorism threat, it approved Clarke’s plan to fight al-Qaeda. On September 9, the Senate Armed Services Committee recommended taking $600 million from the proposed missile defense budget and devoting it to counter-terrorism. According to Gellman, Rumsfeld recommended that Bush veto such a move.

On the morning of September 11, 2001, Clarke’s anti-al-Qaeda plan was sitting on Bush’s desk, awaiting his signature. It was the ninth National Security Presidential Directive of his presidency.


Would the Bush administration have stopped the 9/11 attacks had it taken the threat more seriously? Possibly. On August 3, a Saudi named Mohamed al-Kahtani tried to enter the United States in Orlando, Florida, allegedly to participate in the 9/11 plot. He was sent back home by a customs official whose only concern was that he might become an illegal immigrant. On August 16, FBI and INS agents in Minnesota arrested another potential hijacker, Zacarias Moussaoui, after being tipped off by his flight instructor. But despite numerous requests, they were denied permission to search his apartment or laptop. These incidents “might have exposed the” 9/11 plot, writes Eichenwald, “had the government been on high alert.”

Clarke makes the same argument. When the Clinton administration received word of a potential attack in December 1999, he notes, President Clinton ordered his national-security adviser to “hold daily meetings with the attorney-general, the CIA, FBI.” As a result, the leaders of those agencies instructed their “field offices to find out everything they can find. It becomes the number one priority of those agencies.” This vigilance, Clarke suggests, contributed to the arrest on December 14 of an Algerian named Ahmed Ressam, who was arriving from Canada with the aim of detonating a bomb at Los Angeles International Airport.

The Bush administration could have done similar in 2001.
“Buried in the FBI and CIA,” Clarke notes, “there was information about two of these al-Qaida terrorists who turned out to be hijackers [Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi]. The leadership of the FBI didn’t know that, but if the leadership had to report on a daily basis ... to the White House, he would have shaken the trees and he would have found out those two guys were there.”

Would that have foiled the 9/11 attacks? “There was a chance,” Clarke argues, but top Bush officials “didn’t take it.”

When Donald Trump hurls insults at his opponents, respectable people generally roll their eyes. But it is precisely Trump’s refusal to be respectable that helps him spark debates that elites would rather avoid. And sometimes, those debates are important to have.

Given that George W. Bush’s advisers still dominate the Republican foreign-policy establishment—an establishment that has not broken with his ideological legacy in any fundamental way—his record both before and after 9/11 remains relevant to the terrorism debate today. For many years now, that foreign-policy establishment has insisted that questioning Bush’s failure to stop the September 11 attacks constitutes an outrageous slur. That’s why Fleischer is now calling Trump a “truther.” He’s purposely blurring the line between accusing Bush of having orchestrated the attacks and accusing Bush of having been insufficiently vigilant in trying to stop them. But Bush was insufficiently vigilant. The evidence is overwhelming.

If Jeb’s loyalty to his brother makes it impossible for him to confront that, fine. But he has no right to demand that the rest of the public avert its eyes.


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ZVUGKTUBM

boards of FL wrote:Oh yes, you can. There’s no way of knowing for sure if Bush could have stopped the September 11 attacks. But that’s not the right question. The right question is: Did Bush do everything he could reasonably have to stop them, given what he knew at the time? And he didn’t. It’s not even close.

I think 'The Donald' is owed a debt of gratitude for moving the 9/11 debate in the direction it should have gone years ago. Wingnuts will squirm, but truth cannot be suppressed forever.

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Markle

Markle

boards of FL wrote:
Markle wrote:
boards of FL wrote:Bush did not keep us safer.  Bush got sworn in, mailed it in, and then went on vacation.  And all the while republicans had no concept of what our real threats were at the time (or, perhaps they did but were only concerned with defense contractor profits).  

When all of that came to a head on 09/11/01, the response was even worse.  There again, republicans exhibited an inability to correctly identify our true threats (or, perhaps they did but were only concerned with defense contractor profits).  So we ended up with the war in Iraq and, now, ISIS.

Oh, and the economy and federal budget went to absolute shit during that administration as well.

Republicans suck on the economy.  Republicans suck on the budget.  Republicans suck on defense.  Republican suck on taxes.  Republicans.... Etc. Etc.

Where was President Bush when he was on "vacation"?

Your, and your fellow far left Progressives desperation is duly noted...again.

My guess is that he was at his ranch.  Have you anything to add to the discussion at hand?

Very good, he was at home where they had all communications and security in place all year round. He also met with numerous dignitaries and other world leaders...at his home.

He did NOT go on incredibly expensive vacations to the worlds most luxurious and expensive spots along with a massive entourage.

How many times has semi-retired President Obama and his family visited his family mansion in Chicago?

Markle

Markle

ZVUGKTUBM wrote:
boards of FL wrote:Oh yes, you can. There’s no way of knowing for sure if Bush could have stopped the September 11 attacks. But that’s not the right question. The right question is: Did Bush do everything he could reasonably have to stop them, given what he knew at the time? And he didn’t. It’s not even close.

I think 'The Donald' is owed a debt of gratitude for moving the 9/11 debate in the direction it should have gone years ago. Wingnuts will squirm, but truth cannot be suppressed forever.

Indeed you are correct!

May 07, 2001:  Democrats making the case that terrorism - not long range missiles - are our greatest threat.  I suspect Bush was on vacation. 7e70f7da-a407-4e29-82ad-dcd6a51ace63

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