If the presence of flowing water on Mars eventually leads to the discovery of life on another planet, will that have any religious signficance?

Here's one thing to ponder. The Bible teaches that humans have dominion over all other living creatures. Does that mean living creatures on other planets too?
Apparently, the Bible left out any reference to that.

Bob wrote:Here's one thing to ponder.  The Bible teaches that humans have dominion over all other living creatures.  Does that mean living creatures on other planets too?
Apparently,  the Bible left out any reference to that.

Wrong forum, not a political topic.

If the presence of flowing water on Mars eventually leads to the discovery of life on another planet, will that have any religious signficance?

No. New information and empirical investigation have no impact on the views of the religious.

Markle wrote:

Bob wrote:Here's one thing to ponder.  The Bible teaches that humans have dominion over all other living creatures.  Does that mean living creatures on other planets too?
Apparently,  the Bible left out any reference to that.

Wrong forum, not a political topic.

I think he's right, bds. Do you have a way to move this to the general forum?

boards of FL wrote:

If the presence of flowing water on Mars eventually leads to the discovery of life on another planet, will that have any religious signficance?

No.  New information and empirical investigation have no impact on the views of the religious.  

But this would be more of an ethical or moral question and it would have to be answered.
Is it just creatures on the planet earth that god gave us dominion over?  Or is it all creatures everywhere?
SO,  if an advanced life form was to visit Earth,  would we have dominion over them too?

Bob wrote:

boards of FL wrote:

If the presence of flowing water on Mars eventually leads to the discovery of life on another planet, will that have any religious signficance?

No.  New information and empirical investigation have no impact on the views of the religious.  

But this would be more of an ethical or moral question and it would have to be answered.
Is it just creatures on the planet earth that god gave us dominion over?  Or is it all creatures everywhere?
SO,  if an advanced life form was to visit Earth,  would we have dominion over them too?

The religious will simply become more and more vague in an attempt to bend their doctrines to fit reality.  I just went to bibledice.com and generated a random bible passage:

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Now, what if when they say "know" they really mean "Mars"?  Huh? And what if they meant "water" when they said "him"?  And what if "commandments" was supposed to actually say "microorganisms"?!?!  Let's forget the way the sentence reads because it was written in a dead language and translated countless times.  Praise Jesus!  The bible is validated once again!  The bible predicted water and life on Mars!

And I suspect that it would naturally follow that we have dominion over everything.  Actually, of course we would.  We are the ones who invented the doctrine.  Well, men would have dominion over everything since most of these religions come from ancient, more barbaric times.  Women are, of course, property. Why would we ever invent a doctrine that didn't give us dominion over everything?

As I said, nothing - no new discovery, no new information, nothing - will have any impact on a person who has conscientiously decided to ignore everything that we have learned about our environment in exchange for the Bronze age, supernatural view of the world.  If someone has chosen to base their view of the world on blind faith rather than what we actually know, there is really nothing that you can show them to change their mind.  Put another way, if someone thinks irrationally, they cannot be swayed by rational arguments.

Never seen a cake bake itself....but it could happen given billions of years...and enough icing and flour and eggs and an oven ...oh well it could happen just take my word for it I am a scientist.

TEOTWAWKI wrote:Never seen a cake bake itself....but it could happen given billions of years...and enough icing and flour and eggs and an oven ...oh well it could happen just take my word for it I am a scientist.

The baking of a cake is a processes entirely explained by natural laws. We do not need to summon the supernatural in order to explain how a cake comes into existence.

boards of FL wrote:

TEOTWAWKI wrote:Never seen a cake bake itself....but it could happen given billions of years...and enough icing and flour and eggs and an oven ...oh well it could happen just take my word for it I am a scientist.

The baking of a cake is a processes entirely explained by natural laws.  We do not need to summon the supernatural in order to explain how a cake comes into existence.

Oh so you agree a self baking cake is possible ?

TEOTWAWKI wrote:

boards of FL wrote:

TEOTWAWKI wrote:Never seen a cake bake itself....but it could happen given billions of years...and enough icing and flour and eggs and an oven ...oh well it could happen just take my word for it I am a scientist.

The baking of a cake is a processes entirely explained by natural laws.  We do not need to summon the supernatural in order to explain how a cake comes into existence.

Oh so you agree a self baking cake is possible ?

I guess it would depend upon how you define "self baking".  Cakes get baked everyday in a world absent of supernatural activity.  If you're defining everything that doesn't require supernatural activity as "being done by itself" then, yes, cakes bake themselves every day.

I know I am a terrible cook myself. Cakes are so much more complicated than eyeballs, nerves, blood vessels, hearts, intestines, muscles, bones, mucus, digestive bacteria, ad infinitum ....that's easy just need a few billion years and soon it's up walking around proclaiming it's a self baking human.

TEOTWAWKI wrote:I know I am a terrible cook myself. Cakes are so much more complicated than eyeballs, nerves, blood vessels, hearts, intestines, muscles, bones, mucus, digestive bacteria, ad infinitum ....that's easy just need a few billion years and soon it's up walking around proclaiming it's a self baking human.

Correct. Given the right combination of elements and billions of years, life will have time to evolve to a level of complexity comparable to that of humans. There is no need to consult ancient civilizations or invent supernatural gods to explain that.

boards of FL wrote:

If the presence of flowing water on Mars eventually leads to the discovery of life on another planet, will that have any religious signficance?

No.  New information and empirical investigation have no impact on the views of the religious.  

That depends upon your meaning of the word "religious". I have always held that the Bible does not conflict with scientific discovery. I'm not a literalist. I also believe, as Seaoat has stated, that I don't need an intermediary between me and my God. I don't condemn people who go to church, unless that church preaches politics or engages in creationism, or teaches hatred and bigotry. Many good people go to church. Many good people also do not go to church.

If there are people on Mars, let's hope they're peaceful and don't want to have us for breakfast. If they're smart, they won't want to be involved with creatures from Earth who can't seem to stop making war.

boards of FL wrote:

TEOTWAWKI wrote:I know I am a terrible cook myself. Cakes are so much more complicated than eyeballs, nerves, blood vessels, hearts, intestines, muscles, bones, mucus, digestive bacteria, ad infinitum ....that's easy just need a few billion years and soon it's up walking around proclaiming it's a self baking human.

Correct.  Given the right combination of elements and billions of years, life will have time to evolve to a level of complexity comparable to that of humans.  There is no need to consult ancient civilizations or invent supernatural gods to explain that.

Oh so the correct combination happens because of ?  Well in deference to logic. Nothing happens without a cause so I will ascribe the name of that cause... God....you can call it chaos, random slop or the flying spaghetti monster but no one is stupid enough to buy that complicated things just happen...nature , the universe....is far to destructive for that.

TEOTWAWKI wrote:

boards of FL wrote:

TEOTWAWKI wrote:I know I am a terrible cook myself. Cakes are so much more complicated than eyeballs, nerves, blood vessels, hearts, intestines, muscles, bones, mucus, digestive bacteria, ad infinitum ....that's easy just need a few billion years and soon it's up walking around proclaiming it's a self baking human.

Correct.  Given the right combination of elements and billions of years, life will have time to evolve to a level of complexity comparable to that of humans.  There is no need to consult ancient civilizations or invent supernatural gods to explain that.

Oh so the correct combination happens because of ?  Well in deference to logic. Nothing happens without a cause so I will ascribe the name of that cause... God....you can call it chaos, random slop or the flying spaghetti monster but no one is stupid enough to buy that complicated things just happen...nature , the universe....is far to destructive for that.

The correct combination happens because the universe is vast - and that's putting it lightly.  It has been estimated that there are 10 trillion galaxies.  Our galaxy contains roughly 100 billion stars.  That brings us to a rough estimation of 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars.  Seems fairly reasonable that at least one of those would have a rock hurling around it with the proper mix of elements that have the potential to give rise to higher levels of complexity, such as life.  Then when we add 14 billion years to the equation, the emergence of life doesn't seem all that extraordinary.

boards of FL wrote:

TEOTWAWKI wrote:

boards of FL wrote:

TEOTWAWKI wrote:I know I am a terrible cook myself. Cakes are so much more complicated than eyeballs, nerves, blood vessels, hearts, intestines, muscles, bones, mucus, digestive bacteria, ad infinitum ....that's easy just need a few billion years and soon it's up walking around proclaiming it's a self baking human.

Correct.  Given the right combination of elements and billions of years, life will have time to evolve to a level of complexity comparable to that of humans.  There is no need to consult ancient civilizations or invent supernatural gods to explain that.

Oh so the correct combination happens because of ?  Well in deference to logic. Nothing happens without a cause so I will ascribe the name of that cause... God....you can call it chaos, random slop or the flying spaghetti monster but no one is stupid enough to buy that complicated things just happen...nature , the universe....is far to destructive for that.

The correct combination happens because the universe is vast - and that's putting it lightly.  It has been estimated that there are 10 trillion galaxies.  Our universe contains roughly 100 billion stars.  That brings us to a rough estimation of 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.  Seems fairly reasonable that at least one of those would have a rock hurling around it with the proper mix of elements that have potential to give rise to higher levels of complexity, such as life.  Then when we add 14 billion years to the equation, the emergence of life doesn't seem all that extraordinary.

Oh so you quote a bunch of big numbers and all of a sudden my boggled mind forgets that cakes don't bake themselves and I take a grand leap of faith and believe in a god called chance..


I commend a Bible verse to you Boards...it applies to you very well about your casino creation faith.....

When Jesus heard it, He marveled and said to those who followed, “Verily I say unto you, I have not found such great faith, no, not in Israel.—Matthew 8:10

TEOTWAWKI wrote:

boards of FL wrote:

TEOTWAWKI wrote:

boards of FL wrote:

TEOTWAWKI wrote:I know I am a terrible cook myself. Cakes are so much more complicated than eyeballs, nerves, blood vessels, hearts, intestines, muscles, bones, mucus, digestive bacteria, ad infinitum ....that's easy just need a few billion years and soon it's up walking around proclaiming it's a self baking human.

Correct.  Given the right combination of elements and billions of years, life will have time to evolve to a level of complexity comparable to that of humans.  There is no need to consult ancient civilizations or invent supernatural gods to explain that.

Oh so the correct combination happens because of ?  Well in deference to logic. Nothing happens without a cause so I will ascribe the name of that cause... God....you can call it chaos, random slop or the flying spaghetti monster but no one is stupid enough to buy that complicated things just happen...nature , the universe....is far to destructive for that.

The correct combination happens because the universe is vast - and that's putting it lightly.  It has been estimated that there are 10 trillion galaxies.  Our universe contains roughly 100 billion stars.  That brings us to a rough estimation of 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.  Seems fairly reasonable that at least one of those would have a rock hurling around it with the proper mix of elements that have potential to give rise to higher levels of complexity, such as life.  Then when we add 14 billion years to the equation, the emergence of life doesn't seem all that extraordinary.

Oh so you quote a bunch of big numbers and all of a sudden my boggled mind forgets that things don't bake themselves and I take a grand leap of faith and believe in a god called chance..

I'll leave the "bake itself" rhetoric to you.  We have seen, in the laboratory, that given the presence of certain elements and conditions - which early earth had - fundamental building blocks of life emerge naturally.  We have not yet determined the precise underlying elements or process that they would need to be exposed to in order to create fully living organisms, though we have seen solid evidence that at least the building blocks of life will emerge through natural processes given the right setting.   So when we combine that fact with the spatial and time vastness of the universe, the emergence of life isn't all that extraordinary.

Once again I marvel at your faith. You put me to shame in that department. I am so lazy that rather than expand my mind as far as you have I simply said something done it and am getting ready to go enjoy lunch with Lisa12.

Here's something for you to chew on.......

amoeba dubia has 200 times more DNA than people

In fact this one celled animal has slightly more than 200 times the DNA of a human being. An onion has 4 to 12 times as much DNA as a human. This phenomenon is known as the C-value enigma or C-value paradox. As far as I know, no one has come up with a completely adequate answer to the extremely large discrepancy between humans or dogs and such when compared to the amoeba dubia. Many different scientists have looked into it and come up with what might be called partial answers. Raspberries have 12% of the DNA of a human. And all prokaryotes have magnitudes less DNA than all eukaryotes. So there appears to be no rhyme or reason to this C-value enigma. There are about as many different opinions as there are scientists who`ve looked into it.It has been being looked into since the 1970s, and still no complete answers to this C-value enigma.

TEOTWAWKI wrote:Once again I marvel at your faith. You put me to shame in that department. I am so lazy that rather than expand my mind as far as you have I simply said something done it and am getting ready to go enjoy lunch with Lisa12.

No part of anything that I have said here requires any faith. You have us confused here. You're the one who believes in the supernatural. I'm merely talking about the natural world here. No faith needed.

boards of FL wrote:

TEOTWAWKI wrote:Once again I marvel at your faith. You put me to shame in that department. I am so lazy that rather than expand my mind as far as you have I simply said something done it and am getting ready to go enjoy lunch with Lisa12.

No part of anything that I have said here requires any faith.  You have us confused here.  You're the one who believes in the supernatural.  I'm merely talking about the natural world here.  No faith needed.

Your hypothesis is simply faith by another name...you postulate something then let it rest until validated or dismissed....faith is just a flowery word for belief. There is much more to the natural world than meets the senses.

TEOTWAWKI wrote:

boards of FL wrote:

TEOTWAWKI wrote:Once again I marvel at your faith. You put me to shame in that department. I am so lazy that rather than expand my mind as far as you have I simply said something done it and am getting ready to go enjoy lunch with Lisa12.

No part of anything that I have said here requires any faith.  You have us confused here.  You're the one who believes in the supernatural.  I'm merely talking about the natural world here.  No faith needed.

Your hypothesis is simply faith by another name...you postulate something then let it rest until validated or dismissed....faith is just a flowery word for belief. There is much more to the natural world than meets the senses.

Well.  We have observed the building blocks of life emerge in the laboratory .  We can clearly see that there is plenty of time and space out there for elements and conditions to assemble.  Adding all of this together, it seems fairly likely that life will emerge naturally given the right conditions.  

Is that a statement of certainty?  No.  It's a statement or probability given what we know and what we can observe.  Given what we know and what we have observed, it does seem likely that life is a complex process that emerges naturally given the right set of circumstances.  That said, we still do not know exactly how life emerged; hence why scientists continue to work towards that answer.

And I guess the alternative there would be to invent the supernatural world, a supernatural god, and then say that he did it.  Problem solved!  Done!  The problem there is that there is no good reason to believe such an idea.  It is a completely fabricated placeholder based on absolutely nothing but a desire to close the book and say "Ah ha!  That is how it must have been done!"  Further, it presents an entirely new problem.  What is god and what created it?  And when you answer that, you have a new problem.  What is that and what created it.  And when you answer that...

The smart people in the room say "I don't know" and then try to determine the actual answer.  The gullible will subscribe to ancient mythology.

Teo,

You and so many others always arrive at only two alternatives.

It has to be either: all existence was "created by God"

Or, it has to be:  all existence "just happened".

Why is it always so difficult for us to grasp the 3rd alternative.
That's the one which says WE SIMPLY DO NOT KNOW the origin and the nature of all existence.  Because the human mind does not have the capacity to know/understand/comprehend the origin and nature of all existence.  It is simply not knowable to us.

The word "create" applies to what human beings do.  We create a cake.
We create a work of art.  We create a skyscraper.  

"It just happened" also applies to what human beings experience.  A car wreck "just happens".  A sinkhole "just happens".  Winning the lottery "just happens".  And last but certainly not least,  shit "just happens".

Neither concept has any relevance to the origin and nature of all existence. Because no human word concept nor anything else which comes from a human mind has any relevance to it.  It's not something the human mind can know.  Not something the human mind can understand.  Not something the human mind can comprehend.  

That is the 3rd alternative.  The one which the human mind just cannot seem to even consider,  let alone accept.

I think Teo's example of a group of ingredients to bake a cake is an excellent example of  how it will remain a group of ingredients until someone measures, mixes, pours into a cake container, places it in the oven at the correct temp and bakes the cake.

And where did those ingredients come from?  

The cow, the chicken, a field of grains, a crop of cane; how did all these come into existence?

Whether it's the earth, moon, stars, galaxies, planets and whatever is out there, all so exciting to discover and learn more from these great NASA projects,  I propose it came from one creator, one powerful creator.  

I don't think we know how long it took but it all had a creator.

SheWrites wrote:I think Teo's example of a group of ingredients to bake a cake is an excellent example of  how it will remain a group of ingredients until someone measures, mixes, pours into a cake container, places it in the oven at the correct temp and bakes the cake.

And where did those ingredients come from?  

The cow, the chicken, a field of grains, a crop of cane; how did all these come into existence?

From what we can tell based on what we observe, the universe appears to have began around 14 billion years ago as a burst of energy that continues to expand to this day. Energy eventually condensed into matter, gravity eventually took hold, and stars were born. Stars began to produce heavier and heavier elements and many would ultimately end in a supernova, thus blasting those heavy elements out into space. Gravity again takes hold and condenses those elements into planets. Those planets orbit stars. On at least one planet, the right combination of elements and ultraviolet light were present so as to produce the fundamental building blocks of life. Fast forward through several billion years of evolution, and then Person A drives to Winn Dixie, purchases the ingredients to bake a cake, and then they bake a cake.

No ancient mythology is needed there unless you find yourself uncomfortable with not knowing how the universe began in the first place. If that make you feel uncomfortable, then just repeatedly tell yourself that "god" did it until you actually believe that.

boards of FL wrote:

SheWrites wrote:I think Teo's example of a group of ingredients to bake a cake is an excellent example of  how it will remain a group of ingredients until someone measures, mixes, pours into a cake container, places it in the oven at the correct temp and bakes the cake.

And where did those ingredients come from?  

The cow, the chicken, a field of grains, a crop of cane; how did all these come into existence?

From what we can tell based on what we observe, the universe appears to have began around 14 billion years ago as a burst of energy that continues to expand to this day.  Energy eventually condensed into matter, gravity eventually took hold, and stars were born.  Stars began to produce heavier and heavier elements and many would ultimately end in a supernova, thus blasting those heavy elements out into space.  Gravity again takes hold and condenses those elements into planets.  Those planets orbit stars.   On at least one planet, the right combination of elements and ultraviolet light were present so as to produce the fundamental building blocks of life.  Fast forward through several billion years of evolution, and then Person A drives to Winn Dixie, purchases the ingredients to bake a cake, and then they bake a cake.

No ancient mythology is needed there unless you find yourself uncomfortable with not knowing how the universe began in the first place.  If that make you feel uncomfortable, then just repeatedly tell yourself that "god" did it until you actually believe that.  

I do believe it was a burst of energy. Omnipotent power.