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2 Re: The Thucydides Trap 9/24/2015, 1:09 pm
2seaoat
Nonsense. China has never throughout its history projected power beyond its general boundaries of the current nation. They have simply wanted to be left alone. Iran also has a history of the same, yet the MIC and its shill keep selling to fools the inevitable war.......the only thing which is inevitable is that evil will try to make a buck on scaring people and creating an environment where war becomes a viable option.
3 Re: The Thucydides Trap 9/24/2015, 1:24 pm
ZVUGKTUBM
2seaoat wrote:....the MIC and its shill keep selling to fools the inevitable war.......
First it was the world's commies. Then, the world's Muslims. Next up will be fearmongering about the Yellow Peril. After that it will be space aliens from outside our solar system. Every empire needs an enemy to justify its own warlike belligerence..
4 Re: The Thucydides Trap 9/24/2015, 1:27 pm
Guest
Guest
It's just an interesting article with historical perspective dilberts... I'm not advocating anything. China is rumbling tho.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_wars_and_battles
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_wars_and_battles
5 Re: The Thucydides Trap 9/24/2015, 1:51 pm
Guest
Guest
by 2seaoat Today at 7:09 pm
Nonsense. China has never throughout its history projected power beyond its general boundaries of the current nation. They have simply wanted to be left alone. Iran also has a history of the same, yet the MIC and its shill keep selling to fools the inevitable war.......the only thing which is inevitable is that evil will try to make a buck on scaring people and creating an environment where war becomes a viable option.
------
Why did they buy a FOrmer Soviet Union aircraft carrier and now have two under construction?
Nonsense. China has never throughout its history projected power beyond its general boundaries of the current nation. They have simply wanted to be left alone. Iran also has a history of the same, yet the MIC and its shill keep selling to fools the inevitable war.......the only thing which is inevitable is that evil will try to make a buck on scaring people and creating an environment where war becomes a viable option.
------
Why did they buy a FOrmer Soviet Union aircraft carrier and now have two under construction?
6 Re: The Thucydides Trap 9/24/2015, 1:52 pm
Guest
Guest
Aircraft carriers are not self defense tools, they project air power elsewhere
7 Re: The Thucydides Trap 9/24/2015, 2:15 pm
gatorfan
2seaoat wrote:Nonsense. China has never throughout its history projected power beyond its general boundaries of the current nation. They have simply wanted to be left alone. Iran also has a history of the same, yet the MIC and its shill keep selling to fools the inevitable war.......the only thing which is inevitable is that evil will try to make a buck on scaring people and creating an environment where war becomes a viable option.
Have you been asleep for the last 20 years???
China may not have been that interested in power projection years ago but now they are. Why? They are now a global economy and depend on secure import and export routes. They also need to expand their influence for greater market share. Perhaps you can explain why they are investing heavily in military shipping, aircraft, and weapons such as long range missiles. Why are they building islands (airstrips, etc) in the South China Sea?
Obviously they can't project power to the U.S. but they are quite capable already of disrupting sea lanes and air space of interest to us and also Taiwan - a major ally in the region.
Read this and go back to sleep.
http://www.reuters.com/investigates/china-military/
8 Re: The Thucydides Trap 9/24/2015, 2:16 pm
2seaoat
Why did they buy a FOrmer Soviet Union aircraft carrier and now have two under construction?
They also have the largest army in the world.....so what?
They also have the largest army in the world.....so what?
9 Re: The Thucydides Trap 9/24/2015, 2:24 pm
2seaoat
Read this and go back to sleep
I read the same about Iran for thirty plus years. The size of their army and their ability to disrupt critical shipping lanes.....the projection of their power and inevitable threat to America.........again a big so what..........those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. The Mic who you sucked from its teat for a number of years is selling BS.....I will not participate in a fools errand. The truth is every autocratic nation who has democratic urges requires the illusion of an outside threat. Putin has mastered his power consolidation with the same, and China's ruling communist party has a huge internal battle from democratic factions which want internal reform, and both require the necessity of that outside threat to hang onto the legitimacy of their non democratic dictatorships.
China is not now, or anytime in the next twenty years a threat to the United States.
I read the same about Iran for thirty plus years. The size of their army and their ability to disrupt critical shipping lanes.....the projection of their power and inevitable threat to America.........again a big so what..........those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. The Mic who you sucked from its teat for a number of years is selling BS.....I will not participate in a fools errand. The truth is every autocratic nation who has democratic urges requires the illusion of an outside threat. Putin has mastered his power consolidation with the same, and China's ruling communist party has a huge internal battle from democratic factions which want internal reform, and both require the necessity of that outside threat to hang onto the legitimacy of their non democratic dictatorships.
China is not now, or anytime in the next twenty years a threat to the United States.
10 Re: The Thucydides Trap 9/24/2015, 2:55 pm
Markle
2seaoat wrote:Read this and go back to sleep
I read the same about Iran for thirty plus years. The size of their army and their ability to disrupt critical shipping lanes.....the projection of their power and inevitable threat to America.........again a big so what..........those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. The Mic who you sucked from its teat for a number of years is selling BS.....I will not participate in a fools errand. The truth is every autocratic nation who has democratic urges requires the illusion of an outside threat. Putin has mastered his power consolidation with the same, and China's ruling communist party has a huge internal battle from democratic factions which want internal reform, and both require the necessity of that outside threat to hang onto the legitimacy of their non democratic dictatorships.
China is not now, or anytime in the next twenty years a threat to the United States.
11 Re: The Thucydides Trap 9/24/2015, 3:10 pm
gatorfan
2seaoat wrote:Read this and go back to sleep
I read the same about Iran for thirty plus years. The size of their army and their ability to disrupt critical shipping lanes.....the projection of their power and inevitable threat to America.........again a big so what..........those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. The Mic who you sucked from its teat for a number of years is selling BS.....I will not participate in a fools errand. The truth is every autocratic nation who has democratic urges requires the illusion of an outside threat. Putin has mastered his power consolidation with the same, and China's ruling communist party has a huge internal battle from democratic factions which want internal reform, and both require the necessity of that outside threat to hang onto the legitimacy of their non democratic dictatorships.
China is not now, or anytime in the next twenty years a threat to the United States.
Your naivety concerning CURRENT geopolitical realities is ASTOUNDING!!! You say China has no interest outside its border and then proceed to dismiss hard evidence to the contrary. Amazing.
12 Re: The Thucydides Trap 9/24/2015, 4:23 pm
ZVUGKTUBM
Why worry about China? When the Borg Cube arrives, we will all be assimilated. Resistance is futile!
13 Re: The Thucydides Trap 9/24/2015, 4:37 pm
2seaoat
Your naivety concerning CURRENT geopolitical realities is ASTOUNDING!!! You say China has no interest outside its border and then proceed to dismiss hard evidence to the contrary. Amazing.
What is amazing is the lack of cursory understanding of China and its history. I suggest that everyone who wants an extraordinary book on China, read barbara tuchman Stilwell and the American experience in China. Too often we have the unlearned projecting myth in place of historical context. First the current disputes in the South China Sea is centuries old and is considered to be within the Chinese zone of influence. To not understand historical context and to swallow the MIC pap is just so much crap to even bother to respond in an intelligent dialogue. The Japanese aggression against the Chinese and the retraction of Chinese zones of influence, were not and are not the norm to which you want to apply the MIC war model. George Kennan the father of American realism in Foreign policy would laugh at our experts on this forum. It is the United States and the last vestige of Colonialism which may appear to be a threat of aggression, when Kennan's paradigm still controls, and the wisdom of our zones of interest must be carefully defined in the South China Sea.
Please take the time to read. Take the time to learn, and please do not think a wise man is sleeping when he sees what you cannot see or understand.
What is amazing is the lack of cursory understanding of China and its history. I suggest that everyone who wants an extraordinary book on China, read barbara tuchman Stilwell and the American experience in China. Too often we have the unlearned projecting myth in place of historical context. First the current disputes in the South China Sea is centuries old and is considered to be within the Chinese zone of influence. To not understand historical context and to swallow the MIC pap is just so much crap to even bother to respond in an intelligent dialogue. The Japanese aggression against the Chinese and the retraction of Chinese zones of influence, were not and are not the norm to which you want to apply the MIC war model. George Kennan the father of American realism in Foreign policy would laugh at our experts on this forum. It is the United States and the last vestige of Colonialism which may appear to be a threat of aggression, when Kennan's paradigm still controls, and the wisdom of our zones of interest must be carefully defined in the South China Sea.
Please take the time to read. Take the time to learn, and please do not think a wise man is sleeping when he sees what you cannot see or understand.
14 Re: The Thucydides Trap 9/24/2015, 4:42 pm
Guest
Guest
2seaoat wrote:Your naivety concerning CURRENT geopolitical realities is ASTOUNDING!!! You say China has no interest outside its border and then proceed to dismiss hard evidence to the contrary. Amazing.
What is amazing is the lack of cursory understanding of China and its history. I suggest that everyone who wants an extraordinary book on China, read barbara tuchman Stilwell and the American experience in China. Too often we have the unlearned projecting myth in place of historical context. First the current disputes in the South China Sea is centuries old and is considered to be within the Chinese zone of influence. To not understand historical context and to swallow the MIC pap is just so much crap to even bother to respond in an intelligent dialogue. The Japanese aggression against the Chinese and the retraction of Chinese zones of influence, were not and are not the norm to which you want to apply the MIC war model. George Kennan the father of American realism in Foreign policy would laugh at our experts on this forum. It is the United States and the last vestige of Colonialism which may appear to be a threat of aggression, when Kennan's paradigm still controls, and the wisdom of our zones of interest must be carefully defined in the South China Sea.
Please take the time to read. Take the time to learn, and please do not think a wise man is sleeping when he sees what you cannot see or understand.
Tuchman's writings are the best.
15 Re: The Thucydides Trap 9/24/2015, 5:03 pm
Guest
Guest
It makes no sense to be sanguine over china. They are building artificial islands in the south china sea that are obviously military tools. They send arms to and support brutal despots... and they are constantly hacking and cyber attacking us.
Knowing the history is important... but so is a watchful eye today. Denying either is plain stupid... and not natural.
Knowing the history is important... but so is a watchful eye today. Denying either is plain stupid... and not natural.
16 Re: The Thucydides Trap 9/24/2015, 5:10 pm
2seaoat
Tuchman's writings are the best.
She is a genius. Her genius is to capture the essence of her subject. Stilwell's genius was to cut through the smoke and mirrors of the perception of China, and learn the reality of the same. This book should be mandatory reading for every senior in high school. You can see from some of the posts on this thread and others how TV and common manipulation of news and information are manipulated without context, such that simple minded answers almost look logical.
I plan to sign up for Amazon and read some more of her books. Sadly, with my greed and avarice, I have for the last twenty years rarely taken the time to read scholarly quality work as I set all the wrong priorities.
She is a genius. Her genius is to capture the essence of her subject. Stilwell's genius was to cut through the smoke and mirrors of the perception of China, and learn the reality of the same. This book should be mandatory reading for every senior in high school. You can see from some of the posts on this thread and others how TV and common manipulation of news and information are manipulated without context, such that simple minded answers almost look logical.
I plan to sign up for Amazon and read some more of her books. Sadly, with my greed and avarice, I have for the last twenty years rarely taken the time to read scholarly quality work as I set all the wrong priorities.
17 Re: The Thucydides Trap 9/24/2015, 5:41 pm
Guest
Guest
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/7562344
Just in the past year,China has engaged in a major campaign to alter the geography near the Spratly Islands by building a series of installations, including airstrips and refueling facilities,on existing reefs and small man-made islands. These "land reclamation" projects have taken place in the disputed territory also claimed by the Philippines and Vietnam. The unilateral nature of this activity coupled with Beijing's unwillingness to engage in substantive negotiations on the future of the South China Sea has sparked fears in China's smaller neighbors.
While Beijing has ostensibly committed to peacefully resolve the territorial disputes in the region,it has consistently refused to engage in multilateral initiatives within an Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) framework. Most view this as a transparent attempt to bring as much leverage to bear in one-on-one negotiations with its smaller neighbors,and little progress has been made since China agreed to a Code of Conduct in 2002. In the interim,China has asserted its claims to sovereignty over the disputed reefs and islands in increasingly provocative ways,initially utilizing civilian fishing and coast guard vessels to create a clear presence to the more recent dredging and land reclamation efforts that are now altering the geography of the area.
Approximately 50% of world shipping passes through the South China Sea, much of it Persian Gulf oil destined for Japan,China,South Korea,and other states in the region. Given China's own acute need for natural resources and energy,it is difficult to understand how Beijing could misperceive or not understand the importance other states place on freedom of navigation in the area. While it has focused more on dismissing claims and attempting to intimidate its neighbors,Beijing has seemingly failed to see how its assurances of safe passage in the future may be lost amidst the images of its artificial island development campaign.
Most importantly,the alarming news that China had positioned artillery on one of its new islands near Fiery Cross Reef in the Spratly Chain seriously undermines the credibility of apologists who argue that China is merely exercising its sovereign rights. Such arguments are short-sighted in two major ways. First,simply claiming the entirety of the South China is dubious in terms of history and precedent. Common sense would introduce a measure of skepticism over territorial claims that are roughly a thousand miles away from China's shores. But those claims can and should be negotiated and discussed and fairly adjudicated. What apologists seem to miss is that China's provocative actions are speaking far louder than any statements in support of reconciliation or peaceful dispute resolution.
Second,and perhaps more importantly,the completely unilateral and forceful nature of its actions seriously undermine any credibility of Chinese claims of limited objectives and willingness to abide by shared norms or agreements in the future. How and why should anyone take seriously Beijing's claims to maintain access through the South China Sea given the actions of the past two years? What is to keep Beijing from announcing an Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ) over its man-made possessions in the South China Sea,therefore threatening free shipping and aviation? Some Chinese military leaders have already broached this possibilty in response to U.S. objections to China's behavior. Only last month,Chinese naval forces warned a U.S. Navy surveillance plane to leave the area near the man-made islands,an ominous glimpse into the future.
Just in the past year,China has engaged in a major campaign to alter the geography near the Spratly Islands by building a series of installations, including airstrips and refueling facilities,on existing reefs and small man-made islands. These "land reclamation" projects have taken place in the disputed territory also claimed by the Philippines and Vietnam. The unilateral nature of this activity coupled with Beijing's unwillingness to engage in substantive negotiations on the future of the South China Sea has sparked fears in China's smaller neighbors.
While Beijing has ostensibly committed to peacefully resolve the territorial disputes in the region,it has consistently refused to engage in multilateral initiatives within an Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) framework. Most view this as a transparent attempt to bring as much leverage to bear in one-on-one negotiations with its smaller neighbors,and little progress has been made since China agreed to a Code of Conduct in 2002. In the interim,China has asserted its claims to sovereignty over the disputed reefs and islands in increasingly provocative ways,initially utilizing civilian fishing and coast guard vessels to create a clear presence to the more recent dredging and land reclamation efforts that are now altering the geography of the area.
Approximately 50% of world shipping passes through the South China Sea, much of it Persian Gulf oil destined for Japan,China,South Korea,and other states in the region. Given China's own acute need for natural resources and energy,it is difficult to understand how Beijing could misperceive or not understand the importance other states place on freedom of navigation in the area. While it has focused more on dismissing claims and attempting to intimidate its neighbors,Beijing has seemingly failed to see how its assurances of safe passage in the future may be lost amidst the images of its artificial island development campaign.
Most importantly,the alarming news that China had positioned artillery on one of its new islands near Fiery Cross Reef in the Spratly Chain seriously undermines the credibility of apologists who argue that China is merely exercising its sovereign rights. Such arguments are short-sighted in two major ways. First,simply claiming the entirety of the South China is dubious in terms of history and precedent. Common sense would introduce a measure of skepticism over territorial claims that are roughly a thousand miles away from China's shores. But those claims can and should be negotiated and discussed and fairly adjudicated. What apologists seem to miss is that China's provocative actions are speaking far louder than any statements in support of reconciliation or peaceful dispute resolution.
Second,and perhaps more importantly,the completely unilateral and forceful nature of its actions seriously undermine any credibility of Chinese claims of limited objectives and willingness to abide by shared norms or agreements in the future. How and why should anyone take seriously Beijing's claims to maintain access through the South China Sea given the actions of the past two years? What is to keep Beijing from announcing an Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ) over its man-made possessions in the South China Sea,therefore threatening free shipping and aviation? Some Chinese military leaders have already broached this possibilty in response to U.S. objections to China's behavior. Only last month,Chinese naval forces warned a U.S. Navy surveillance plane to leave the area near the man-made islands,an ominous glimpse into the future.
Last edited by PkrBum on 9/24/2015, 5:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
18 Re: The Thucydides Trap 9/24/2015, 5:46 pm
2seaoat
Another article which reaffirms historical claims and all within the zone of influence of China. Nothing like the paradigm being created by propaganda by the MIC and their shills.
19 Re: The Thucydides Trap 9/24/2015, 5:51 pm
Guest
Guest
You obviously didnt read the article. Why don't you just say nothing matters? Or better yet just yell lalalalalalala.
That would save your having to type anything. We get it comrade... china is the most benevolent country in history.
What a rube... lol.
That would save your having to type anything. We get it comrade... china is the most benevolent country in history.
What a rube... lol.
20 Re: The Thucydides Trap 9/24/2015, 6:37 pm
2seaoat
lalalalalalala.
You worry about the laughable and ignore the obvious. How does North Korea factor into your world view. lalalalalalala.
You worry about the laughable and ignore the obvious. How does North Korea factor into your world view. lalalalalalala.
21 Re: The Thucydides Trap 9/24/2015, 6:41 pm
Guest
Guest
by 2seaoat Yesterday at 8:16 pm
Why did they buy a FOrmer Soviet Union aircraft carrier and now have two under construction?
They also have the largest army in the world.....so what?
-----
The army has always been for self defense assclown.
Why did they buy a FOrmer Soviet Union aircraft carrier and now have two under construction?
They also have the largest army in the world.....so what?
-----
The army has always been for self defense assclown.
22 Re: The Thucydides Trap 9/24/2015, 7:39 pm
Markle
2seaoat wrote:lalalalalalala.
You worry about the laughable and ignore the obvious. How does North Korea factor into your world view. lalalalalalala.
North Korea is going to help Iran build their nuclear weapons program. The leader of North Korea is just crazy enough to launch a missile simple to prove that he can.
23 Re: The Thucydides Trap 9/24/2015, 7:43 pm
ZVUGKTUBM
What is worst is we spilled blood and a trillion dollars onto the sands of Iraq that we borrowed from the Chinese. They just sat back and smiled while we secured a future oil source for them. China is now Iraq's top oil importer.
China's Imports From Iraq Rose Roughly 50% Last Year (2013)
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303802904579334411874909686
China's Imports From Iraq Rose Roughly 50% Last Year (2013)
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303802904579334411874909686
24 Re: The Thucydides Trap 9/24/2015, 7:45 pm
ZVUGKTUBM
Markle wrote:North Korea is going to help Iran build their nuclear weapons program. The leader of North Korea is just crazy enough to launch a missile simple to prove that he can.
25 Re: The Thucydides Trap 9/24/2015, 9:30 pm
2seaoat
Two truths sold to fools.....we will invade an innocent nation in regard to the attacks of 911 and kill a 100k innocent civilians and they will pay for the war with oil sales, and Iran is going to threaten America and we must attack them or be at risk of nuclear war. China and Russia just scratch their head and say.......whaaaaaaat?
Did you notice Israel made a trip to talk to Putin this week. Do you realize the last time Russia was in Syria was in 1973, and they were ready to help invade Israel, but for the American threat of a nuclear retaliation, which also had the soviets threatening the same. For those who forget history, during the cold war the Soviets were entrenched in Egypt and Syria, and at one time there was an attempt at unification of the two nations. Now.......with this big sell of the threat of ISIS, made by the Saudis, and Israelis as they sell at the same time the danger of nuclear threat to the United States in Iran, and Putin who came to office after kicking some Chetzen asz, is going after the shills of Israel and Saudi Arabia.....the Saudis who are pouring oil into the international market and crashing the rubble......this does not take rocket scientist to figure out what is going on and where this going.....and President Obama is playing this like a maestro. Brilliant and unrecognized.
Did you notice Israel made a trip to talk to Putin this week. Do you realize the last time Russia was in Syria was in 1973, and they were ready to help invade Israel, but for the American threat of a nuclear retaliation, which also had the soviets threatening the same. For those who forget history, during the cold war the Soviets were entrenched in Egypt and Syria, and at one time there was an attempt at unification of the two nations. Now.......with this big sell of the threat of ISIS, made by the Saudis, and Israelis as they sell at the same time the danger of nuclear threat to the United States in Iran, and Putin who came to office after kicking some Chetzen asz, is going after the shills of Israel and Saudi Arabia.....the Saudis who are pouring oil into the international market and crashing the rubble......this does not take rocket scientist to figure out what is going on and where this going.....and President Obama is playing this like a maestro. Brilliant and unrecognized.
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