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Which is better for you and your family, socialism or capitalism?

+6
TEOTWAWKI
Floridatexan
Sal
Markle
Hospital Bob
Wordslinger
10 posters

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Wordslinger

Wordslinger

According to conservatives, we are a capitalist nation suffering from socialist inroads. As things stand though, the 1% own most everything and have bought up our government, the way a rich beef dealer buys up fattened cattle at an auction. If you love having your blood sucked by a wealthy corporate mogul, then you love Amerika Inc.

Were you better off back in the eighties when the ultra rich really were taxed, or now?


http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/32536-socialism-lets-cut-to-the-chase

Guest


Guest

I'm surprised we even have to compare... you say you have studies history. One system lead to the largest distribution of middle class wealth and prosperity in the history of the world... the other to the largest enslavement and depravity in history.

http://www.sahistory.org.za/article/impact-lenin-and-stalin039s-policies-rights-russian-people-grade-11

Stalin: The First Five- Year Plans (1928-1933)

Stalin believed that a strong economy needed a strong country. He felt that industrialisation was the key to achieving this strength and was convinced that the peasant class needed to accept socialism. Stalin preferred the economic policies of War Communism. He felt Lenin's New Economic Policy (NEP) had diluted socialism, but he was nervous about losing the support of the peasants who benefited from the NEP and wanted to unite them with the working class. The launch of the first Five-Year Plan and a collectivisation drive dramatically reversed the NEP model.

The Congress of the Communist Party accepted Stalin's national economic plan in 1927. The plan was to run from 1928 to 1933, and the objectives of this plan were:

The rapid industrialisation of Russia.

The introduction of socialised farming.

Elimination of private enterprise.

Development of education and transport.

A state planning commission, the Gosplan, was empowered to direct the economic activities of the country. The main aim of the Gosplan was to control the means of production and make recommendations to the government on issues regarding to the import and export of raw materials for manufacturing.

Industrialisation

Stalin's decision to begin a policy of rapid industrialisation flowed from his particular belief in socialism. Stalin believed Russia had to be delivered from its backwardness and introduced to modern wonders of metal tractors and motorcars. The target of the first Five-Year Plan was to double production.

Propaganda was used to inspire workers and to stress the significance of working together for a better future. Emphasis was also placed on the development of heavy industries, steel and electrical plants. Transportation systems, scientists and engineering skills from the West were needed for Russia to reach the same level as other industrialised countries in Europe. Tools and machinery were desperately needed.

To pay for this help and equipment they needed ready money, as the capitalist countries were wary of granting credit to Communist Russia. Stalin believed that attention to education was necessary in order to have a skilled industrial labour force. Improvements in transport would help move raw materials, manufactured products and agricultural produce. In order to reach the required targets, new railway lines were built and the old ones upgraded.

Agricultural Reform

A new agricultural system was introduced, bringing together numerous small farms into collective and state agriculture. Peasant and wealthy farmers who refused to sell their extra products were heavily taxed. Wealthy farmers responded angrily by destroying their crops and killing their livestock. Stalin punished them by destroying their homes and deporting most of them to Siberia.

Mechanisation and scientific farming were introduced on a large scale. Profits were divided three ways among the state, workers and a reserve operation fund to support community services such as schools, recreation centres and hospitals. Agriculture began to prosper.

These reforms introduced socialised farming to the masses and were made possible by the expertise of the capitalists who owned large individual farms during the rule of the Tsar and Lenin. It was Stalin's aim to see all farms nationalised, with the state becoming the sole owner. This was one area where Stalin blamed Lenin for allowing capitalism to emerge on a large scale, as if it was not a communist state.

Elimination of private enterprise

Private traders and wealthy farmers were progressively taxed until they could no longer afford to run their businesses. In December 1932, the First Five-Year Plan was completed. Rapid industrialisation had been achieved, although the quality was poor compared to western countries. Many basic industries were established and new industries such as plastics and synthetic rubber also came into being. The foundations had been laid for the development of Russia as a major industrial and political world power.

Education and Transport

Thousands of new schools were built to provide basic education for all children and education was made compulsory. Adult literacy classes, which were also emphasised, reduced the rate of illiteracy rate from 50% in 1924 to 20% in 1939. Education was structured around mechanical and engineering lessons.

Stalin felt that proper education would lead to more innovative ideas and ways and means of industrialising Russia. To achieve that goal, the transport system needed improvements in order to import and export goods out of the country. New railway links were built, like the Turkestan-Siberian line, and old ones were upgraded.

The building of networks of hard-surface roads, and canal systems to link rivers for practical navigation became essential. The shortage of trains that were supposed to link various cities meant that some raw materials and food never reached their destinations in time. In order to avoid rotten food, efficient trains had to be built.

The Second and Third Five-Year Plan (1933-1938)

The Communist Party Congress formally passed the Second Five-Year Plan in January 1934. Importance was placed on the improvement of efficiency and techniques in industry. Light factories were built to provide more consumer goods in order to raise the standard of living of the Russian population.

Consumption increased dramatically, but growth and development of heavy industries remained the government's priority. The most important successes were achieved in the machine making industry. This tripled in size. The Third Five-Year Plan of 1939 to 1942 was interrupted by the Second World War, which broke out on the 1 September 1939.

Assessing the five-year plans

Russia's production of arms for the war against Germany was proof of Stalin's success in industrialising the country despite the huge human cost. It was through the Five-Year Plans that Russia emerged from World War II as one of the superpowers, along with the United States of America.

WAR COMMUNISM NEP STALIN'S FIVE YEAR PLANS Aims - to increase government control of the economy

- to implement communistic goals

- to win the Civil War

-to feed the Red Army

- to introduce capitalist elements into the economy in the hope that communism would be maintained in the long term

- to modernise the USSR so that it would not be vulnerable to invasion from the West and would be the equal of Western countries

- to industrialise the USSR

- to improve agriculture

- to export crops in return for industrial machinery

Circumstances - Communist victory being challenged by internal and foreign forces

- food shortages

- extreme hardship resulting from the Civil War

- economic problems resulting from war communism

- government realised that change was necessary to stay in power

- focus on building "Socialism in One Country"

- inequalities resulting from the NEP

- rest of the world coping with the effects of the Great Depression

- inefficient farming methods

Results - production levels dropped

- food shortages and famine

- increasing opposition, even from communist supporters

- economy rescued as production levels increased

- inequalities emerged due to capitalist incentives: KULAKS and NEPMEN

- successfully developed into an industrialised nation in a short time

- improved literacy and basic needs levels

-forced labour used

- extremely harsh treatment

- resistance to collectivisation from KULAKS

Did it strenghthen Communism? - Yes: it was the first time that the ideas were given practical implementation

- Yes: the communists were able to win the Civil War and preserve the communist state in the long term

- No: the results within the particular context were a disaster

- No: people resented heavy-handed government control

- Yes: there was not a total collapse and communist principles would be introduced later

- No: aspects of private enterprise were introduced and class divisions developed again

- Yes: it made the USSR into the strongest industrial state

- Yes: USSR became a Super Power after WWII

-Yes: communism was seen as a real alternative to capitalism

- No: Marx's theory that the state would wither away never happened.

Guest


Guest

And then ofcourse we had good ole mao... who "basically had it right" jarrett... lol. I'm amazed at what useful idiots can ignore.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward

And the enlightened dear leader pol pot: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge_rule_of_Cambodia

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

I like capitalism and socialism both.  
Capitalism provided me with a living.
Socialism is providing me with health care.

I think they both have their place.  But of course this makes me a no-good cowardly fence-sitter with an IQ lower than a toaster.

Markle

Markle

Wordslinger wrote:According to conservatives, we are a capitalist nation suffering from socialist inroads.  As things stand though, the 1% own most everything and have bought up our government, the way a rich beef dealer buys up fattened cattle at an auction.  If you love having your blood sucked by a wealthy corporate mogul, then you love Amerika Inc.  

Were you better off back in the eighties when the ultra rich really were taxed, or now?

http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/32536-socialism-lets-cut-to-the-chase

Which is better for you and your family, socialism or capitalism? AdolphHitlerandSocialist_zps33c21341

Markle

Markle

Bob wrote:I like capitalism and socialism both.  
Capitalism provided me with a living.
Socialism is providing me with health care.

I think they both have their place.  But of course this makes me a no-good cowardly fence-sitter with an IQ lower than a toaster.  

A for profit health care system has also provided you with the highest quality health care, with more new life extending, life saving drugs, technology and procedures than anywhere else in the world.

Guest


Guest

Wordslinger, I'm afraid you'll receive the same old yakkity, yak, yak, yak from the same ones who always quote the same old banter from the conservative propaganda.  Likewise, with the liberal side.  

Very lopsided.  Life needs balance and we do not see that in America any longer.  Bob is right, we do see both socialism and capitalism in our lives.  And, for the most part, it works.  If both sides could balance we might be in a better place.

Power and ego will never allow that to happen.  

Scoot over, Bob.  You're taking up too much of the middle.  And could someone hand me a cushion.  And why a fence?  Seems a padded bench would work better.  Maybe a little table with cold beverages?  One side of the table with snacks for the veggie lovers and the other side for the carnivores.  

See, we can work it...we can work it out...life seems very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend. So I will ask you once again...try to see it my way.  Wink

Sal

Sal

Purity, be it in capitalism or be it in socialism or be it any ism, results in dead bodies.

The trick is to find the right mix that serves the people best.

Given the odious income inequality we are seeing in the United States today, it would appear that mix is not quite right, and a little more socialism might be in order.

Floridatexan

Floridatexan

Bob wrote:I like capitalism and socialism both.  
Capitalism provided me with a living.
Socialism is providing me with health care.

I think they both have their place.  But of course this makes me a no-good fence-sitter with an IQ lower than a toaster.

Which is better for you and your family, socialism or capitalism? Screen%2BShot%2B2012-09-19%2Bat%2B7.11.51%2BAM

Bob wins the Golden Toaster Award for recognizing that our society is built on both capitalism and socialism. Bob received a public school education through grade 12...Bob has been seen at the local public library (rarely)...Bob likes to take road trips on the (public) interstate highway system.

TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

We could use a better quality population that actually would be productive instead of Leeches like we have in congress.

Markle

Markle

Not surprising, the Progressives here don't even know what Socialism is or how it "works". Other than the fact that it uses someone else's money, which is all they care about.

Guest


Guest

It's hard to imagine anything that can be run so badly and corrupted yet keep growing as an enormous cental govt...

Except maybe a 600lb man at a golden corral. We are headed in a direction... and it's a proven failure and misery.

dumpcare



Markle wrote:Not surprising, the Progressives here don't even know what Socialism is or how it "works".  Other than the fact that it uses someone else's money, which is all they care about.

I don't think you know what it is either. Hitler was not a true socialist. A Socialist for all the people, he was only for a class of people.

dumpcare



[quote="ppaca"]
Markle wrote:Not surprising, the Progressives here don't even know what Socialism is or how it "works".  Other than the fact that it uses someone else's money, which is all they care about.

I don't think you know what it is either. Hitler was not a true socialist. A Socialist for all the people, he was only for a certain race.

http://europeanhistory.about.com/od/germanyandprussia/fl/Was-Adolf-Hitler-a-Socialist-Debunking-a-Historical-Myth.htm

Guest


Guest

I don't really see what the big difference is. Socialism is State ownership... Fascism is State controlled.

The subtleties might be interesting political fodder... but the end is the same.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

Markle wrote:
Bob wrote:I like capitalism and socialism both.  
Capitalism provided me with a living.
Socialism is providing me with health care.

I think they both have their place.  But of course this makes me a no-good cowardly fence-sitter with an IQ lower than a toaster.  

A for profit health care system has also provided you with the highest quality health care, with more new life extending, life saving drugs, technology and procedures than anywhere else in the world.

Do you honestly believe the average senior could afford to pay thousands of dollars a month for health care without that premium being subsidized? If you do then I want to sell you one of the local bay bridges. I'll give you a good deal on it.

2seaoat



Not surprising, the Progressives here don't even know what Socialism is or how it "works". Other than the fact that it uses someone else's money, which is all they care about.


I think I will pass on 90% of what has been offered as concepts in this thread. I will make it simple. Where our founding fathers created a constitution with specific enabling language which allowed Congress to tax, defend, and provide for the general welfare of its citizens, we had a blend. Now Mr. Markle and PK would be laughed out of any graduate program in America in a course on political concepts. They lack any semblance of the science aspect to the study of these political systems, and rant about dogma. We live in a great country which our founding fathers did an amazing job of setting the template for success. If we want to let Mr. Markle and PK go into an operating room, and ask for a thingy to take out the red looking organ, I think most of us would pass and let professionals and scholars use the proper nomenclature and concepts to dissect American government and the political concepts which interface with the same.

dumpcare



Bob wrote:
Markle wrote:
Bob wrote:I like capitalism and socialism both.  
Capitalism provided me with a living.
Socialism is providing me with health care.

I think they both have their place.  But of course this makes me a no-good cowardly fence-sitter with an IQ lower than a toaster.  

A for profit health care system has also provided you with the highest quality health care, with more new life extending, life saving drugs, technology and procedures than anywhere else in the world.

Do you honestly believe the average senior could afford to pay thousands of dollars a month for health care without that premium being subsidized?  If you do then I want to sell you one of the local bay bridges.  I'll give you a good deal on it.  

Hey Markle admitted months ago he's on a capital healthcare MAPD, so he's in the so called socialist program too.

If this country was 100% capitalistic we'd be in dire straights.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

ppaca wrote:

If this country was 100% capitalistic we'd be in dire straights.

If the medical/insurance complex was 100% unregulated for-profit capitalism;  with two kinds of cancer at age 66,  my health insurance premiums would probably have to be upwards of $3000/month.  That is IF I could even have insurance because an unregulated for-profit medical system would not even sell me insurance because the risk is too high.

2seaoat



I always snicker a little bit about the dichotomy.....if a person understands the concept of insurance......then they might do more than snicker at Mr. Markle and PK........allocating the risk among a pool who pay some portion for protection for ALL the members of that pool.....hmmmmm.

Guest


Guest

You do mean a forced pool... correct?

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

Yes,  Bob understands that a degree of socialism is the only way I can have health care at my age.

But Bob also sees what happens when the government outright owns and operates a health care system.  They call that the VA.  And I think an argument can be made that the VA health care system is not a model of excellence either.

As SheWrites points out,  there is a need for both capitalism and socialism. One by itself,  without any semblance of the other,  is not pretty.  Regardless of what the extremists on either side believe.

Markle

Markle

Bob wrote:
Markle wrote:
Bob wrote:I like capitalism and socialism both.  
Capitalism provided me with a living.
Socialism is providing me with health care.

I think they both have their place.  But of course this makes me a no-good cowardly fence-sitter with an IQ lower than a toaster.  

A for profit health care system has also provided you with the highest quality health care, with more new life extending, life saving drugs, technology and procedures than anywhere else in the world.

Do you honestly believe the average senior could afford to pay thousands of dollars a month for health care without that premium being subsidized?
 If you do then I want to sell you one of the local bay bridges.  I'll give you a good deal on it.  

YES!

As you know, citizens PAY FOR MEDICARE COVERAGE all their working lives. In other words, it is insurance coverage for which I have paid. Translated for you is that it is not a subsidy. Also extorted from my were huge payments for Social Security. Something which was not put away for me but which went to other citizens. That is what is called a PONZI SCHEME.

And YES, older citizens COULD pay for their health insurance. IF they were allowed, along with all other citizens, to purchase health insurance across state lines That would be the same as with your auto or life insurance. IF I could also, all my life make my OWN decisions as to the coverage I want. Then it would be possible. It would also be good.

Do you even know all the add on coverage you are mandated to pay for even though you do not want or need the coverage? As a younger person, for very low cost, you may only want catastrophic coverage.

Yes, there area lot of REAL solutions, they are rejected by people like semi-retired President Obama because they put the individual in control and NOT the government.



Guest


Guest

M, by the time you are drawing Medicare benefits for your health care needs the pittance you paid in has already been used up. You are drawing from what others pay in and it's still in need of subsidy. Yes, you do have socialism in your life.

Wordslinger

Wordslinger

PkrBum wrote:I'm surprised we even have to compare... you say you have studies history. One system lead to the largest distribution of  middle class wealth and prosperity in the history of the world... the other to the largest enslavement and depravity in history.

http://www.sahistory.org.za/article/impact-lenin-and-stalin039s-policies-rights-russian-people-grade-11

Stalin: The First Five- Year Plans (1928-1933)

Stalin believed that a strong economy needed a strong country. He felt that industrialisation was the key to achieving this strength and was convinced that the peasant class needed to accept socialism. Stalin preferred the economic policies of War Communism. He felt Lenin's New Economic Policy (NEP) had diluted socialism, but he was nervous about losing the support of the peasants who benefited from the NEP and wanted to unite them with the working class. The launch of the first Five-Year Plan and a collectivisation drive dramatically reversed the NEP model.

The Congress of the Communist Party accepted Stalin's national economic plan in 1927. The plan was to run from 1928 to 1933, and the objectives of this plan were:

The rapid industrialisation of Russia.

The introduction of socialised farming.

Elimination of private enterprise.

Development of education and transport.

A state planning commission, the Gosplan, was empowered to direct the economic activities of the country. The main aim of the Gosplan was to control the means of production and make recommendations to the government on issues regarding to the import and export of raw materials for manufacturing.

Industrialisation

Stalin's decision to begin a policy of rapid industrialisation flowed from his particular belief in socialism. Stalin believed Russia had to be delivered from its backwardness and introduced to modern wonders of metal tractors and motorcars. The target of the first Five-Year Plan was to double production.

Propaganda was used to inspire workers and to stress the significance of working together for a better future. Emphasis was also placed on the development of heavy industries, steel and electrical plants. Transportation systems, scientists and engineering skills from the West were needed for Russia to reach the same level as other industrialised countries in Europe. Tools and machinery were desperately needed.

To pay for this help and equipment they needed ready money, as the capitalist countries were wary of granting credit to Communist Russia. Stalin believed that attention to education was necessary in order to have a skilled industrial labour force. Improvements in transport would help move raw materials, manufactured products and agricultural produce. In order to reach the required targets, new railway lines were built and the old ones upgraded.

Agricultural Reform

A new agricultural system was introduced, bringing together numerous small farms into collective and state agriculture. Peasant and wealthy farmers who refused to sell their extra products were heavily taxed. Wealthy farmers responded angrily by destroying their crops and killing their livestock. Stalin punished them by destroying their homes and deporting most of them to Siberia.

Mechanisation and scientific farming were introduced on a large scale. Profits were divided three ways among the state, workers and a reserve operation fund to support community services such as schools, recreation centres and hospitals. Agriculture began to prosper.

These reforms introduced socialised farming to the masses and were made possible by the expertise of the capitalists who owned large individual farms during the rule of the Tsar and Lenin. It was Stalin's aim to see all farms nationalised, with the state becoming the sole owner. This was one area where Stalin blamed Lenin for allowing capitalism to emerge on a large scale, as if it was not a communist state.

Elimination of private enterprise

Private traders and wealthy farmers were progressively taxed until they could no longer afford to run their businesses. In December 1932, the First Five-Year Plan was completed. Rapid industrialisation had been achieved, although the quality was poor compared to western countries. Many basic industries were established and new industries such as plastics and synthetic rubber also came into being. The foundations had been laid for the development of Russia as a major industrial and political world power.

Education and Transport

Thousands of new schools were built to provide basic education for all children and education was made compulsory. Adult literacy classes, which were also emphasised, reduced the rate of illiteracy rate from 50% in 1924 to 20% in 1939. Education was structured around mechanical and engineering lessons.

Stalin felt that proper education would lead to more innovative ideas and ways and means of industrialising Russia. To achieve that goal, the transport system needed improvements in order to import and export goods out of the country. New railway links were built, like the Turkestan-Siberian line, and old ones were upgraded.

The building of networks of hard-surface roads, and canal systems to link rivers for practical navigation became essential. The shortage of trains that were supposed to link various cities meant that some raw materials and food never reached their destinations in time. In order to avoid rotten food, efficient trains had to be built.

The Second and Third Five-Year Plan (1933-1938)

The Communist Party Congress formally passed the Second Five-Year Plan in January 1934. Importance was placed on the improvement of efficiency and techniques in industry. Light factories were built to provide more consumer goods in order to raise the standard of living of the Russian population.

Consumption increased dramatically, but growth and development of heavy industries remained the government's priority. The most important successes were achieved in the machine making industry. This tripled in size. The Third Five-Year Plan of 1939 to 1942 was interrupted by the Second World War, which broke out on the 1 September 1939.

Assessing the five-year plans

Russia's production of arms for the war against Germany was proof of Stalin's success in industrialising the country despite the huge human cost. It was through the Five-Year Plans that Russia emerged from World War II as one of the superpowers, along with the United States of America.

WAR COMMUNISM NEP STALIN'S FIVE YEAR PLANS Aims - to increase government control of the economy

- to implement communistic goals

- to win the Civil War

-to feed the Red Army

- to introduce capitalist elements into the economy in the hope that communism would be maintained in the long term

- to modernise the USSR so that it would not be vulnerable to invasion from the West and would be the equal of Western countries

- to industrialise the USSR

- to improve agriculture

- to export crops in return for industrial machinery

Circumstances - Communist victory being challenged by internal and foreign forces

- food shortages

- extreme hardship resulting from the Civil War

- economic problems resulting from war communism

- government realised that change was necessary to stay in power

- focus on building "Socialism in One Country"

- inequalities resulting from the NEP

- rest of the world coping with the effects of the Great Depression

- inefficient farming methods

Results - production levels dropped

- food shortages and famine

- increasing opposition, even from communist supporters

- economy rescued as production levels increased

- inequalities emerged due to capitalist incentives: KULAKS and NEPMEN

- successfully developed into an industrialised nation in a short time

- improved literacy and basic needs levels

-forced labour used

- extremely harsh treatment

- resistance to collectivisation from KULAKS

Did it strenghthen Communism? - Yes: it was the first time that the ideas were given practical implementation

- Yes: the communists were able to win the Civil War and preserve the communist state in the long term

- No: the results within the particular context were a disaster

- No: people resented heavy-handed government control

- Yes: there was not a total collapse and communist principles would be introduced later

- No: aspects of private enterprise were introduced and class divisions developed again

- Yes: it made the USSR into the strongest industrial state

- Yes: USSR became a Super Power after WWII

-Yes: communism was seen as a real alternative to capitalism

- No: Marx's theory that the state would wither away never happened.

Soviet Communism was a tyrannical system that caused terrible deprivation, death, imprisonment, fear, and inequities. It was as far from today's socialism - the type practiced by many successful Scandinavian and European countries, all of which function under democratic governments in which the citizen has full voting rights -- as modern American capitalism is to full-blown, Nazi fascism.

And before you pat yourself for claiming American capitalism lead to a successful middleclass -- our middleclass is being decimated, and a handful of oligarchs control 50% or more of ALL America's wealth.

Full blown capitalism is as destructive to the masses as cancer.

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