Pensacola Discussion Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

This is a forum based out of Pensacola Florida.


You are not connected. Please login or register

Pensacola Discussion Forum » Politics » Another American sniper tosses in the towel and turns anti-Iraq war.

Another American sniper tosses in the towel and turns anti-Iraq war.

+5
Hospital Bob
ZVUGKTUBM
nadalfan
KarlRove
Wordslinger
9 posters

Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Go down  Message [Page 2 of 3]

Wordslinger

Wordslinger

KarlRove wrote:
Wordslinger wrote:Hey War Hero:  Once again:

Q: If a person in the military believes that America is pursuing an illegal, unjust, unnecessary, unconscionable war against an innocent nation, why are they wrong to turn against it?

During WWII many Nazi SS groups hurried to annihilate Jewish captives as the allied armies and the Soviet Union armies approached. These soldiers were committing despicable, horrendous crimes and their only defense was they were following orders. Is this what you recommend for American military personnel?

What's funny is that he was all good with it until the American Sniper movie and book are put into the light. Now he wants to play devil's advocate/Johnny Come Lately. I don't buy it. Neither should you.

None of the orders this guy got were unlawful. I never had an unlawful order. [The subject of the thread is about another sniper in Iraq who thinks our presence there was unconscionable, I never implied that he got unlawful orders]

. . . See, that's where WINNERS make the rules. Had we been the loser of the war, the rules might be different, but unfortunately for people like you it's a thorn in your side.
Perhaps somebody else here can explain what point our savaged War Hero was trying to make?











[/size]

"

Markle

Markle

Wordslinger wrote:Semi-sane Markle commented in response to this thread:

"As you well know, there were never any lies and Afghanistan is the place semi-retired President Obama told us repeatedly was the war we should be fighting. The war is both legal, just and necessary. Great to have men who are able to do what you cannot so that you can expound your obscene theories."

He must have some point here, but I fail to grasp it.  The reasons the U.S. government broadcast in support of our invasion of Afghanistan was to defeat the Taliban who had provided bases for Al Quaida.  Once we had defeated the Taliban, and forced Al Qaida into Pakistan's remote mountains, why in hell did we have to stay?  There's only one reason:  we were going to nation build once again.  Remaining in Afghanistan was a dreadful, costly and self-destructive effort, which began with establishing Hamid Karzai as our puppet leader.  The Karzai family is now unbelievably rich with American aid money they managed to pocket and stash away.

Obama was 100% wrong about meddling in Afghanistan.  We've spent billions, and our nation-building has failed utterly.  The Taliban -- whom we declared as our initial target enemy is stronger than ever and every indication leads to the conclusion they will soon take over.

All our efforts to rebuild and democratize Islamic countries in the Mideast have been dreadful failures due to America's insane and self-destructive belief that we're the best and we have the right to bully other people who don't see it our way.  

Since our successful imperialist war against the Philippines in 1899-1902, and in Japan and Germany after WWII, we have never been successful at nation building through invading and occupying foreign countries -- particularly when we let them know up front we weren't going to be there forever.  Consider:  as soon as you inform a captive population that they have to do everything your way, but that you'll be leaving in a few years -- you LOSE.  They recognize right away that when you leave, the ancient tribal conflicts will flare up again.  And the bravest of them begin studying how to make and use IEDs.

Our nation building in Germany and Japan post WWII worked because we never told them we'd be leaving.  Hell we still have bases there!

As for soldiers who come to hate using America's unbelievable military might and technology to invade, occupy, bully and kill mostly illiterate third-world populations who are little if any threat to the people of Boise or Fort Worth, maybe their voices should be listened to instead of ridiculed.

"My country, right or wrong," is destroying America.  


Not surprising that a short, to the point paragraph is beyond your comprehension.

Markle

Markle

ZVUGKTUBM wrote:
polecat wrote:
KarlRove wrote:So we have another modern John Kerry , oh well.


Karl who would you rather be in a foxhole with John Kerry or Ted Nugent?

He would definitely go with Ted, LOL! Ideology trumps true combat experience.

I would sure be with someone I knew could shoot straight.

One of John Kerry's stolen Purple Hearts was from him firing a grenade launcher too close to the boat he was on and a piece of shrapnel hitting his shoulder. He slept the night in his bunk, when to the doctor the next day who removed the sliver with a tweezer.

Another American sniper tosses in the towel and turns anti-Iraq war. - Page 2 HanoiJaneJohnKerry

Markle

Markle

KarlRove wrote:
Markle wrote:
Wordslinger wrote:Hey War Hero:  Once again:

Q: If a person in the military believes that America is pursuing an illegal, unjust, unnecessary, unconscionable war against an innocent nation, why are they wrong to turn against it?

During WWII many Nazi SS groups hurried to annihilate Jewish captives as the allied armies and the Soviet Union armies approached. These soldiers were committing despicable, horrendous crimes and their only defense was they were following orders. Is this what you recommend for American military personnel?

As you well know, there were never any lies and Afghanistan is the place semi-retired President Obama told us repeatedly was the war we should be fighting.  The war is both legal, just and necessary.  Great to have men who are able to do what you cannot so that you can expound your obscene theories.

During the WWII, in many battles, atrocities were committed by all sides.  Many battles did not allow the time take and process prisoners.  I know somewhat of this as my dad lost his left leg and had sever damage to his left hand in late Dec. or early Jan 1944 in the Battle of the Bulge.  He laid for two days with his missing leg and shattered hand until medics got up to them and he was evacuated.


Battle of the Bulge was Dec 44- Jan 45.

True, he left Camp Blanding late June 1944.

Wordslinger

Wordslinger

Markle wrote:
ZVUGKTUBM wrote:
polecat wrote:
KarlRove wrote:So we have another modern John Kerry , oh well.


Karl who would you rather be in a foxhole with John Kerry or Ted Nugent?

He would definitely go with Ted, LOL! Ideology trumps true combat experience.

I would sure be with someone I knew could shoot straight.

One of John Kerry's stolen Purple Hearts was from him firing a grenade launcher too close to the boat he was on and a piece of shrapnel hitting his shoulder.  He slept the night in his bunk, when to the doctor the next day who removed the sliver with a tweezer.

Another American sniper tosses in the towel and turns anti-Iraq war. - Page 2 HanoiJaneJohnKerry


So what? Kerry was firing at the enemy. You get a scratch in combat and you qualify for the Purple Heart. Kerry's true heroism was in openly opposing a tragic, unwinnable and costly American debacle wherein the United States -- the most powerful high-tech military might in the world was engaged in an Imperialist war against a third-world country which was trying to unite and expel foreign invaders -- and can you believe it, America lost!! South Vietnam's government was totally corrupt and every one of its leaders was an American puppet. Not unlike Maliki in Iraq and Karzai in Afghanistan, and you can toss the Shah of Iran into the same salad.

And we never learn from the failures of our temporary nation-building.

Reality.

Wordslinger

Wordslinger

Another shot at American Sniper:

http://www.alternet.org/culture/why-macho-sludge-peddled-american-sniper-really-cowardice?akid=12738.260394.zEGLss&rd=1&src=newsletter1031124&t=2

Floridatexan

Floridatexan


The Swift Boat Veterans were all closely aligned with the Bush campaign and lied through their teeth about Kerry's service record.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/20/politics/campaign/20swift.html?pagewanted=1

Friendly Fire: The Birth of an Anti-Kerry Ad

By KATE ZERNIKE and JIM RUTENBERG
Published: August 20, 2004


"After weeks of taking fire over veterans' accusations that he had lied about his Vietnam service record to win medals and build a political career, Senator John Kerry shot back yesterday, calling those statements categorically false and branding the people behind them tools of the Bush campaign.

His decision to take on the group directly was a measure of how the group that calls itself Swift Boat Veterans for Truth has catapulted itself to the forefront of the presidential campaign. It has advanced its cause in a book, in a television advertisement and on cable news and talk radio shows, all in an attempt to discredit Mr. Kerry's war record, a pillar of his campaign.

How the group came into existence is a story of how veterans with longstanding anger about Mr. Kerry's antiwar statements in the early 1970's allied themselves with Texas Republicans.

Mr. Kerry called them "a front for the Bush campaign" - a charge the campaign denied.

A series of interviews and a review of documents show a web of connections to the Bush family, high-profile Texas political figures and President Bush's chief political aide, Karl Rove.

Records show that the group received the bulk of its initial financing from two men with ties to the president and his family - one a longtime political associate of Mr. Rove's, the other a trustee of the foundation for Mr. Bush's father's presidential library. A Texas publicist who once helped prepare Mr. Bush's father for his debate when he was running for vice president provided them with strategic advice. And the group's television commercial was produced by the same team that made the devastating ad mocking Michael S. Dukakis in an oversized tank helmet when he and Mr. Bush's father faced off in the 1988 presidential election.

The strategy the veterans devised would ultimately paint John Kerry the war hero as John Kerry the "baby killer" and the fabricator of the events that resulted in his war medals. But on close examination, the accounts of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies. In many cases, material offered as proof by these veterans is undercut by official Navy records and the men's own statements.

Several of those now declaring Mr. Kerry "unfit" had lavished praise on him, some as recently as last year..."

Another American sniper tosses in the towel and turns anti-Iraq war. - Page 2 20040820swift_graph

KarlRove

KarlRove

Kerry wrote his own decs for things he never did and That's why the swift boat vets torpedoed his campaign. Groups of people don't lie FT.

KarlRove

KarlRove

Well groups of Democraps lie all the time. The evidence is this forum, so I stand corrected

Wordslinger

Wordslinger

KarlRove wrote:Well groups of Democraps lie all the time. The evidence is this forum, so I stand corrected

One more time War Hero:


Q: If a person in the military believes that America is pursuing an illegal, unjust, unnecessary, unconscionable war against an innocent nation, why are they wrong to turn against it?

KarlRove

KarlRove

Not one order was unlawful. You can't pick and choose what to do. The military doesn't work like that.

Wordslinger

Wordslinger

KarlRove wrote:Not one order was unlawful. You can't pick and choose what to do. The military doesn't work like that.

Wrong again Mr.War Hero.  Read the UCMJ closely.  If you're ordered to blow-up a house full of Iraqi children, and you know that fact, do you think you're required to follow that order?  An officer orders you to shoot an Iraqi captive who is tied and sitting on the street.  Do you have to?  

Your comment above reinforces the old "a soldier's duty is not to reason why, but to do or die!" Crapola.

The Nuremberg trials of Nazis at the end of WWII, did not allow German captives, enlisted or officers, to avoid trial or conviction penalties for crimes against humanity on the basis they were "just following orders." Several were hanged and more were sent to prison.

However neither of these circumstances apply to Kerry or this former sniper who now regrets his service.  Both of these decorated warriors turned against the wars they had helped fight for reasons of conscience. A fact which it is clear, you resent. There can be no question that by "coming out" about their feelings about the war, they were (and are) creating problems for themselves.

I'm going to ask the following question to the U.S. Army Historical Center:

If a soldier who up to this point has been a loyal member of U.S. combat forces comes to the conclusion that the war itself is immoral and possibly illegal, what are his or her remedies?

Do you want to take a stab at what they'll tell me?

Joanimaroni

Joanimaroni

Wordslinger wrote:
KarlRove wrote:Not one order was unlawful. You can't pick and choose what to do. The military doesn't work like that.

Wrong again Mr.War Hero.  Read the UCMJ closely.  If you're ordered to blow-up a house full of Iraqi children, and you know that fact, do you think you're required to follow that order?  An officer orders you to shoot an Iraqi captive who is tied and sitting on the street.  Do you have to?  

Your comment above reinforces the old "a soldier's duty is not to reason why, but to do or die!" Crapola.

The Nuremberg trials of Nazis at the end of WWII, did not allow German captives, enlisted or officers, to avoid trial or conviction penalties for crimes against humanity on the basis they were "just following orders." Several were hanged and more were sent to prison.

However neither of these circumstances apply to Kerry or this former sniper who now regrets his service.  Both of these decorated warriors turned against the wars they had helped fight for reasons of conscience. A fact which it is clear, you resent. There can be no question that by "coming out" about their feelings about the war, they were (and are) creating problems for themselves.

I'm going to ask the following question to the U.S. Army Historical Center:

If a soldier who up to this point has been a loyal member of U.S. combat forces comes to the conclusion that the war itself is immoral and possibly illegal, what are his or her remedies?

Do you want to take a stab at what they'll tell me?


Different scenerio to your original question which was...........Q: If a person in the military believes that America is pursuing an illegal, unjust, unnecessary, unconscionable war against an innocent nation, why are they wrong to turn against it?

KarlRove

KarlRove

by KarlRove Today at 3:35 am
Not one order was unlawful. You can't pick and choose what to do. The military doesn't work like that.
by Wordslinger Today at 10:50 am
KarlRove wrote:
“
Not one order was unlawful. You can't pick and choose what to do. The military doesn't work like that.
”
Wrong again Mr.War Hero. Read the UCMJ closely. If you're ordered to blow-up a house full of Iraqi children, and you know that fact, do you think you're required to follow that order? An officer orders you to shoot an Iraqi captive who is tied and sitting on the street. Do you have to?

Your comment above reinforces the old "a soldier's duty is not to reason why, but to do or die!" Crapola.

The Nuremberg trials of Nazis at the end of WWII, did not allow German captives, enlisted or officers, to avoid trial or conviction penalties for crimes against humanity on the basis they were "just following orders." Several were hanged and more were sent to prison.

However neither of these circumstances apply to Kerry or this former sniper who now regrets his service. Both of these decorated warriors turned against the wars they had helped fight for reasons of conscience. A fact which it is clear, you resent. There can be no question that by "coming out" about their feelings about the war, they were (and are) creating problems for themselves.

I'm going to ask the following question to the U.S. Army Historical Center:

If a soldier who up to this point has been a loyal member of U.S. combat forces comes to the conclusion that the war itself is immoral and possibly illegal, what are his or her remedies?

Do you want to take a stab at what they'll tell me?
--------
Reread the prior post at the top of this one...... He was given no unlawful orders, hence he has no legitimate argument. I know the UCMJ quite well having served as a First Sergeant. Put a sock in it loser.

Floridatexan

Floridatexan

KarlRove wrote:Kerry wrote his own decs for things he never did and That's why the swift boat vets torpedoed his campaign. Groups of people don't lie FT.

Groups of people most certainly do lie, numbskull, when they're pursuing their own agenda. In this case, these people were playing partisan politics. They were lying about Kerry so he wouldn't win the highest office in the land. You have no proof for your assertion that Kerry was lying...none. But there is one glaring fact in all this: the people who accused Kerry were in general not pleased when he exposed the lies leading to the war in Vietnam and spoke publicly against the war. They were also intimately connected to the Bush family and/or Karl Rove.

KarlRove

KarlRove

Especially your liberal groups. Kerry sucked as a leader obviously and that's why there is the disdain among the men he allegedly served with ... And obviously not up to par.

ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

Kerry sucked as a leader...

Not according to his final fitness report, written by Admiral Walter F. Schelch on 2 March 1970:

LtJg Kerry is one of the finest young officers with whom I have served in a long naval career. His combat record prior to becoming my personal aide speaks for itself and is a testimony to his competence and courage at sea.

As my personal aide he could not have been more effective. In every instance he has displayed tact, judgment, foresight and energy. He is particularly adept in his relations with people both military and civilian from all strata. I have given him personal speaking assignments which he has performed in an outstanding manner to the credit of the Navy and himself.

This young man is detached at his own request to run for high public office to whit the Congress of the United States. The detachment of this officer will be a definite loss to the service. He is the dedicated type that we should retain and it is hoped that he will be of further perhaps earlier greater service to this country, which is his aim in life at this time.

http://www.best-electric-barbecue-grills.com

ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

Kerry released his fitness report records prior to the 2004 election. Bush kept his military records sequestered because there was nothing in them worth telling the public about. Twisted Evil

http://www.best-electric-barbecue-grills.com

Wordslinger

Wordslinger

KarlRove wrote:by KarlRove Today at 3:35 am
Not one order was unlawful. You can't pick and choose what to do. The military doesn't work like that.
by Wordslinger Today at 10:50 am
KarlRove wrote:
“
Not one order was unlawful. You can't pick and choose what to do. The military doesn't work like that.
”
Wrong again Mr.War Hero.  Read the UCMJ closely.  If you're ordered to blow-up a house full of Iraqi children, and you know that fact, do you think you're required to follow that order?  An officer orders you to shoot an Iraqi captive who is tied and sitting on the street.  Do you have to?  

Your comment above reinforces the old "a soldier's duty is not to reason why, but to do or die!" Crapola.

The Nuremberg trials of Nazis at the end of WWII, did not allow German captives, enlisted or officers, to avoid trial or conviction penalties for crimes against humanity on the basis they were "just following orders." Several were hanged and more were sent to prison.

However neither of these circumstances apply to Kerry or this former sniper who now regrets his service.  Both of these decorated warriors turned against the wars they had helped fight for reasons of conscience. A fact which it is clear, you resent. There can be no question that by "coming out" about their feelings about the war, they were (and are) creating problems for themselves.

I'm going to ask the following question to the U.S. Army Historical Center:

If a soldier who up to this point has been a loyal member of U.S. combat forces comes to the conclusion that the war itself is immoral and possibly illegal, what are his or her remedies?

Do you want to take a stab at what they'll tell me?
--------
Reread the prior post at the top of this one...... He was given no unlawful orders, hence he has no legitimate argument.  I know the UCMJ quite well having served as a First Sergeant. Put a sock in it loser.

the issue isn't about orders, it's about conscience and one's sense of morality. Once again, if a soldier comes to believe a war is immoral and tragic and unnecessary, what are a soldier's remedies? Are you capable of answering such a question, or not. But, of course, evidently 1st sergeants aren't good readers ...

Wordslinger

Wordslinger

KarlRove wrote:Not one order was unlawful. You can't pick and choose what to do. The military doesn't work like that.




Your answer doesn't fit the question.  In my earlier statement I mentioned Nazi soldiers charged with war crimes hiding behind the statement that they were only following orders.

The Kerry and Reppenhagen situations have nothing to do with orders, one way or the other.  You disdain both men because they came to the conclusion the wars they were fighting were immoral.  I want to hear you answer why it's wrong for a soldier to express his feelings about a war when he thinks it's wrong?   You can dance around the question all you want, and that's what we expect because that's what blowhard cowards always do.  Or you can pretend to us you have balls and actually answer the question.

Markle

Markle

[quote="Wordslinger"]Once again War Hero .... how about trying to give us your answer or opinion on the following:Hey War Hero:  Once again:


Q: If a person in the military believes that America is pursuing an illegal, unjust, unnecessary, unconscionable war against an innocent nation, why are they wrong to turn against it?

During WWII many Nazi SS groups hurried to annihilate Jewish captives as the allied armies and the Soviet Union armies approached. These soldiers were committing despicable, horrendous crimes and their only defense was they were following orders. Is this what you recommend for American military personnel?

You keep dancing around this question instead of answering it.  Why?

That would be you and you would never join the military.  Just as who would join the military if they shared your false beliefs about their country?

ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

Aren't you a veteran, Wordslinger? Semi-intelligent poste Markle says you never served.

http://www.best-electric-barbecue-grills.com

Wordslinger

Wordslinger

Markle wrote:
Wordslinger wrote:Once again War Hero .... how about trying to give us your answer or opinion on the following:Hey War Hero:  Once again:


Q: If a person in the military believes that America is pursuing an illegal, unjust, unnecessary, unconscionable war against an innocent nation, why are they wrong to turn against it?

During WWII many Nazi SS groups hurried to annihilate Jewish captives as the allied armies and the Soviet Union armies approached. These soldiers were committing despicable, horrendous crimes and their only defense was they were following orders. Is this what you recommend for American military personnel?

You keep dancing around this question instead of answering it.  Why?

That would be you and you would never join the military.  Just as who would join the military if they shared your false beliefs about their country?

I served in the Air Force, did you serve? And Kerry was 100% right about the insanity and total worthlessness of the Vietnam debacle.


Screw Amerika Inc.! Corporate control of our government through campaign financing.

“Soon all humane people would understand the need for a revolution from below, where those who worked and struggled and produced would be the ruling class.”

Christopher Hitchens, Hitch 22

Wordslinger

Wordslinger

ZVUGKTUBM wrote:Aren't you a veteran, Wordslinger? Semi-intelligent poste Markle says you never served.

Thanks. Semi-sane Markle doesn't like to remember facts. I served four years in the USAF, the same time my hero George Carlin (RIP) was in.

My experiences on a radar site on top of a Nevada mountain overlooking the Mercury Nuclear Test Center convinced me Washington and the men in the Pentagon were completely insane and terribly dangerous. After two years watching nukes go off, I got my HD and went to school. I celebrated when Castro routed Batista, and protested Vietnam a few years later.

Wordslinger

Wordslinger

Semi-sane Markle doubts I would join today's U.S. military if I was young again.

He's right. I wouldn't. I chose a four year hitch in the USAF to avoid a foxhole in Korea. Nobody in their right mind would join today's underpaid, overworked and totally exploited and expendable military services. Who want's to get killed or serve several tours in Imperialist wars occupying and bullying third-world people in conflicts our government never means to win?

Sal said it perfectly a while back -- Fuck war. I've got better things to do.

Sponsored content



Back to top  Message [Page 2 of 3]

Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Pensacola Discussion Forum » Politics » Another American sniper tosses in the towel and turns anti-Iraq war.

Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum