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Pensacola Discussion Forum » Politics » New book exposes how FDR goaded Japan into war

New book exposes how FDR goaded Japan into war

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2seaoat
KarlRove
TEOTWAWKI
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TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/12/patrick-j-buchanan/did-fdr-provoke-pearl-harbor-2/

But to friends, “the Chief” sent another message: “You and I know that this continuous putting pins in rattlesnakes finally got this country bit.”
Today, 70 years after Pearl Harbor, a remarkable secret history, written from 1943 to 1963, has come to light. It is Hoover’s explanation of what happened before, during and after the world war that may prove yet the death knell of the West.
Edited by historian George Nash, “Freedom Betrayed: Herbert Hoover’s History of the Second World War and Its Aftermath” is a searing indictment of FDR and the men around him as politicians who lied prodigiously about their desire to keep America out of war, even as they took one deliberate step after another to take us into war.
Yet the book is no polemic. The 50-page run-up to the war in the Pacific uses memoirs and documents from all sides to prove Hoover’s indictment. And perhaps the best way to show the power of this book is the way Hoover does it — chronologically, painstakingly, week by week.

_____________________________________________________


At a Nov. 25 meeting of FDR’s war council, Secretary of War Henry Stimson’s notes speak of the prevailing consensus: “The question was how we should maneuver them (the Japanese) into … firing the first shot without allowing too much danger to ourselves.”
“We can wipe the Japanese off the map in three months,” wrote Navy Secretary Frank Knox.
As Grew had predicted, Japan, a “hara-kiri nation,” proved more likely to fling herself into national suicide for honor than to allow herself to be humiliated
Out of the war that arose from the refusal to meet Prince Konoye came scores of thousands of U.S. dead, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, the fall of China to Mao Zedong, U.S. wars in Korea and Vietnam, and the rise of a new arrogant China that shows little respect for the great superpower of yesterday.

Guest


Guest

I think fdr was the least constitutional potus in the nations history... closely followed by woodrow wilson.

I think we can safely put obama in third now... with bush2 fourth. It's amazing what people will accept under duress.

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/fdr-signs-executive-order-9066

KarlRove

KarlRove

He didn't want to fight the Japs though. He wanted us helping Britain against the Nazis.

There was a huge falling out between FDR and Churchill though at the Tehran Conference in 1943.  Lots of people believe FDR got manipulated by Stalin all the way through the Yalta Conference as well.  Too many concessions were made that gave Russia the upperhand in Eastern Europe which Stalin never relinquished. Even though Truman told Stalin about A bomb at Potsdam, it was no surprise as Klaus Fuchs and others had infiltrated Manhattan Project.

Guest


Guest

New book exposes how FDR goaded Japan into war Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQAq5rAuwwKzvyekgemAV2lubzfXEjHiNMRx88eomA4zqh_5CV6bg

A war with Germany which if we go by the liberal standards was illegal for both WWI and WWII.

Liberal standards: They didn't attack us first therefore the war is illegal.

*****SMILE*****

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tna0Mmu1XlI

Smile

2seaoat



This is amusing. Eagle thinks he understands history. He might want to check who declared war.....Germany or America first. T has that Navy indoctrination of Viet Nam......that chinks do not think like Americans and can live on a bowl of rice a day.....that ethnocentric belief that everything revolves around America and what we do. I strongly suggest you educate yourself. A good book to start to understand the Japanese in WWII is the book Stilwell and the American Experience in China, 1911-45, Barbara Tuchman, where you will learn that the Japanese fascist state was autonomous for a decade of the concerns of the west or Washington. This ethnocentric idea that we were so much smarter that we tricked the Japanese into attacking us is pure idiocy. They honestly believed they could attack Pearl and destroy the fleet and America would back down. They wanted free reign to expand their empire. It was a calculated INTERNAL Japanese decision making which as early as the early 1920s with the Washington Naval Treaty they had clearly shown their internal hand independent of what a politician did almost twenty years later. I am amazed at the total lack of reading and understanding of history. Take some time and read. It will open your eyes to the world.

KarlRove

KarlRove

Damaged Eagle wrote:New book exposes how FDR goaded Japan into war Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQAq5rAuwwKzvyekgemAV2lubzfXEjHiNMRx88eomA4zqh_5CV6bg

A war with Germany which if we go by the liberal standards was illegal for both WWI and WWII.

Liberal standards: They didn't attack us first therefore the war is illegal.

*****SMILE*****

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tna0Mmu1XlI

Smile

It wasn't illegal bro. Hitler declared war on us after Roosevelt declared war on Japan.

Guest


Guest

2seaoat wrote:This is amusing.  Eagle thinks he understands history.  He might want to check who declared war.....Germany or America first.   T has that Navy indoctrination of Viet Nam......that chinks do not think like Americans and can live on a bowl of rice a day.....that ethnocentric belief that everything revolves around America and what we do.  I strongly suggest you educate yourself.   A good book to start to understand the Japanese in WWII is the book Stilwell and the American Experience in China, 1911-45, Barbara Tuchman, where you will learn that the Japanese fascist state was autonomous for a decade of the concerns of the west or Washington.  This ethnocentric idea that we were so much smarter that we tricked the Japanese into attacking us is pure idiocy.   They honestly believed they could attack Pearl and destroy the fleet and America would back down.   They wanted free reign to expand their empire.  It was a calculated INTERNAL Japanese decision making which as early as the early 1920s with the Washington Naval Treaty they had clearly shown their internal hand independent of what a politician did almost twenty years later.  I am amazed at the total lack of reading and understanding of history.  Take some time and read.   It will open your eyes to the world.

New book exposes how FDR goaded Japan into war Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQP6i7RiVeSDS7pYkV_Kt-5qozP3s4U9wb-3J6rllgCMbviyEXh

So now we can turn Iran into a parking lot also?

After all they declared war on the United States in 1980 and have never rescinded their declaration.

The liberal logic is that the war criminal is the one throws the first punch not the one that declares war first. The United States threw the first punch at Germany in both world wars.

*****CHUCKLE*****

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruNrdmjcNTc

Smile



Last edited by Damaged Eagle on 12/10/2014, 1:03 am; edited 2 times in total

Guest


Guest

KarlRove wrote:
Damaged Eagle wrote:

A war with Germany which if we go by the liberal standards was illegal for both WWI and WWII.

Liberal standards: They didn't attack us first therefore the war is illegal.

*****SMILE*****

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tna0Mmu1XlI

Smile

It wasn't illegal bro. Hitler declared war on us after Roosevelt declared war on Japan.

New book exposes how FDR goaded Japan into war Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR-8TOJfotDAfA4cF0XWAYEvDhdIfV_e-u8ocfIsAP18C6F-rb_

However Germany never threw the first punch at the United States in either of those wars.

The liberal stance has always been that we're the aggressor and war criminals if we attack someone first. Therefore by the liberal logic the United States was the aggressor in both world wars.

Should we attack Iran since they declared war on us in 1980?

Just makin' a point here man.

*****SMILE*****

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmuZsSsyQ-M

Smile



Last edited by Damaged Eagle on 12/10/2014, 1:19 am; edited 2 times in total

KarlRove

KarlRove

2seaoat wrote:This is amusing.  Eagle thinks he understands history.  He might want to check who declared war.....Germany or America first.   T has that Navy indoctrination of Viet Nam......that chinks do not think like Americans and can live on a bowl of rice a day.....that ethnocentric belief that everything revolves around America and what we do.  I strongly suggest you educate yourself.   A good book to start to understand the Japanese in WWII is the book Stilwell and the American Experience in China, 1911-45, Barbara Tuchman, where you will learn that the Japanese fascist state was autonomous for a decade of the concerns of the west or Washington.  This ethnocentric idea that we were so much smarter that we tricked the Japanese into attacking us is pure idiocy.   They honestly believed they could attack Pearl and destroy the fleet and America would back down.   They wanted free reign to expand their empire.  It was a calculated INTERNAL Japanese decision making which as early as the early 1920s with the Washington Naval Treaty they had clearly shown their internal hand independent of what a politician did almost twenty years later.  I am amazed at the total lack of reading and understanding of history.  Take some time and read.   It will open your eyes to the world.

Harvard educated Yamamoto did not believe as the rest of his military though. The rest of their leadership believed the strike on Pearl Harbor was a one and done deal.  It wasn't. It pissed off our nation. Japan had to win in six months or less and that was just when American industrial might would kick in.  If Japan could not win in the aforementioned time frame, Yamamoto knew the industrial might was something Japan would not be able to compete with and inevitably, Japan would lose.

I just took this class at the grad level.

2seaoat



Harvard educated Yamamoto did not believe as the rest of his military though. The rest of their leadership believed the strike on Pearl Harbor was a one and done deal. It wasn't. It pissed off our nation. Japan had to win in six months or less and that was just when American industrial might would kick in. If Japan could not win in the aforementioned time frame, Yamamoto knew the industrial might was something Japan would not be able to compete with and inevitably, Japan would lose.

I just took this class at the grad level.

You nailed it.....I am glad you are taking grad classes. Your response on this thread was dead cinch correct. If you get a chance read the Tuchman book.....it will open the world to you about post WWII geopolitics in the far east, and gives incredible insight on the Chinese. It has been thirty plus years, but the general is one of my historical idols.

Wordslinger

Wordslinger

KarlRove wrote:He didn't want to fight the Japs though. He wanted us helping Britain against the Nazis.

There was a huge falling out between FDR and Churchill though at the Tehran Conference in 1943.  Lots of people believe FDR got manipulated by Stalin all the way through the Yalta Conference as well.  Too many concessions were made that gave Russia the upperhand in Eastern Europe which Stalin never relinquished. Even though Truman told Stalin about A bomb at Potsdam, it was no surprise as Klaus Fuchs and others had infiltrated Manhattan Project.

In the winter of 1941, Roosevelt and his military staff believed that unless we entered the war quickly, Hitler would invade Britain. Politically, Roosevelt was in a bind -- the American people were against entering into another world war in Europe. Whether it was a controlled, exercised strategy to drive the Japanese into attacking us, or whether things just worked out that way is still undecided. But the facts are, the day after the bombing of Pearl Harbor, Roosevelt declared war on the Empire of Japan, and a day or two later, Hitler (who was an ally of Japan) declared war on the United States. Roosevelt at last had the freedom he needed to go to war against the Axis.

In 1943, at Yalta, it was Stalin who represented the biggest most powerful military forces actually engaged on the ground against Hitler. Neither England nor the United States was yet capable of invading Europe (the invasion came in June of 1944). From June 1944 until the end of the war in the spring of 1945, combined American and British forces were faced by less than 1/3 of Hitler's Wehrmacht. The rest of the German army was being decimated by the Russian Army. The primary objective of the Yalta meetings was for the Allies -- including the Soviet Union -- to decide what countries in Europe they would respectively control once Germany was defeated. Stalin dictated what he wanted and neither Roosevelt nor Churchill were prepared to oppose him. Roosevelt acquiesced, and although reluctantly, Churchill did too.

We like to think we defeated Hitler, but the bulk of the fighting, and the greatest losses and costs were borne by the Russians.

Reality.

Wordslinger

Wordslinger

Damaged Eagle wrote:New book exposes how FDR goaded Japan into war Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQAq5rAuwwKzvyekgemAV2lubzfXEjHiNMRx88eomA4zqh_5CV6bg

A war with Germany which if we go by the liberal standards was illegal for both WWI and WWII.

Liberal standards: They didn't attack us first therefore the war is illegal.

*****SMILE*****

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tna0Mmu1XlI

Smile


"They didn't attack us first therefore the war is illegal," you wrote above.

Wrong. Japan did attack us first, and Germany declared war on us a day or two later.

Smile on those facts ...

KarlRove

KarlRove

by 2seaoat Today at 2:07 am
Harvard educated Yamamoto did not believe as the rest of his military though. The rest of their leadership believed the strike on Pearl Harbor was a one and done deal. It wasn't. It pissed off our nation. Japan had to win in six months or less and that was just when American industrial might would kick in. If Japan could not win in the aforementioned time frame, Yamamoto knew the industrial might was something Japan would not be able to compete with and inevitably, Japan would lose.

I just took this class at the grad level.

You nailed it.....I am glad you are taking grad classes. Your response on this thread was dead cinch correct. If you get a chance read the Tuchman book.....it will open the world to you about post WWII geopolitics in the far east, and gives incredible insight on the Chinese. It has been thirty plus years, but the general is one of my historical idols.

----
I'll read it thanks

KarlRove

KarlRove

by Wordslinger Today at 6:25 am
KarlRove wrote:
“
He didn't want to fight the Japs though. He wanted us helping Britain against the Nazis.

There was a huge falling out between FDR and Churchill though at the Tehran Conference in 1943. Lots of people believe FDR got manipulated by Stalin all the way through the Yalta Conference as well. Too many concessions were made that gave Russia the upperhand in Eastern Europe which Stalin never relinquished. Even though Truman told Stalin about A bomb at Potsdam, it was no surprise as Klaus Fuchs and others had infiltrated Manhattan Project.
”
In the winter of 1941, Roosevelt and his military staff believed that unless we entered the war quickly, Hitler would invade Britain. Politically, Roosevelt was in a bind -- the American people were against entering into another world war in Europe. Whether it was a controlled, exercised strategy to drive the Japanese into attacking us, or whether things just worked out that way is still undecided. But the facts are, the day after the bombing of Pearl Harbor, Roosevelt declared war on the Empire of Japan, and a day or two later, Hitler (who was an ally of Japan) declared war on the United States. Roosevelt at last had the freedom he needed to go to war against the Axis.

In 1943, at Yalta, it was Stalin who represented the biggest most powerful military forces actually engaged on the ground against Hitler. Neither England nor the United States was yet capable of invading Europe (the invasion came in June of 1944). From June 1944 until the end of the war in the spring of 1945, combined American and British forces were faced by less than 1/3 of Hitler's Wehrmacht. The rest of the German army was being decimated by the Russian Army. The primary objective of the Yalta meetings was for the Allies -- including the Soviet Union -- to decide what countries in Europe they would respectively control once Germany was defeated. Stalin dictated what he wanted and neither Roosevelt nor Churchill were prepared to oppose him. Roosevelt acquiesced, and although reluctantly, Churchill did too.

We like to think we defeated Hitler, but the bulk of the fighting, and the greatest losses and costs were borne by the Russians.

Reality.
------
We will never know what might have happened. To say the Russians had the most powerful military by the Yalta conference is a misnomer. They were at the other end of the supply spectrum that the Germans found out about during Operation Barbarossa.

We could have taken Berlin, but at what cost? It would have cost 100,000 casualties just to go from the Elbe River ( to Berlin)where Ike held Anglo Allied forces on April 12. He did so in order to not fight over land that the Soviets would get anyhow in the occupational zone agreements already made. Ike was smart. The Brits were dumb though. They wanted Berlin, but it wasn't
Militarily needed to win the war because by winter 1945 the German economy and war fighting ability was heading to almost zero. Capitulation was a matter of time no matter who took Berlin or when. It might have been good to use as political points and earn concessions from the USSR, but you don't fight wars or win them on political points. You win by kicking the hell out of the other side.

No, the Russians weren't necessarily
The strongest military. Their two main generals Zhukov and Konev were human pit bulls that didn't care how many of their own troops got killed just for personal glory. Read about their final assault on Berlin from April 16 to may 2 in 1945. They took hella losses in a race to take the capital because Stalin goaded on the rival generals.

ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

KarlRove wrote:He didn't want to fight the Japs though. He wanted us helping Britain against the Nazis.

There was a huge falling out between FDR and Churchill though at the Tehran Conference in 1943.  Lots of people believe FDR got manipulated by Stalin all the way through the Yalta Conference as well.  Too many concessions were made that gave Russia the upperhand in Eastern Europe which Stalin never relinquished. Even though Truman told Stalin about A bomb at Potsdam, it was no surprise as Klaus Fuchs and others had infiltrated Manhattan Project.

And every bit of this was by design. You have to read conspiracy books to understand how all of it played out.

http://www.best-electric-barbecue-grills.com

TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

Careful this could happen to them...
New book exposes how FDR goaded Japan into war Kevin-Butler-mind-blown

Guest


Guest

It's interesting the the two most progressive presidents in our history are the ones that manipulated... if not manufactured the circumstances and "crisis" that facilitated our involvement in the world wars. People don't know what progressivism is.

TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

I like this one much better...

New book exposes how FDR goaded Japan into war 45895-jenna-marbles-mind-blown-gif-oYUp

Guest


Guest

Wordslinger wrote:
Damaged Eagle wrote:

A war with Germany which if we go by the liberal standards was illegal for both WWI and WWII.

Liberal standards: They didn't attack us first therefore the war is illegal.

*****SMILE*****

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tna0Mmu1XlI

Smile


"They didn't attack us first therefore the war is illegal,"  you wrote above.

Wrong.  Japan did attack us first, and Germany declared war on us a day or two later.

Smile on those facts ...

New book exposes how FDR goaded Japan into war Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTXNuLziCRuHvBAxXWo4ycmjmT9Ho7xXKiT4eAuLlsEKSUSwK30

If we're going by liberal standards just because Japan attacked us it did not give us the right to attack Germany.

Learn to read and comprehend.

*****CHUCKLE*****

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fNY0JuATpQ

Smile

Guest


Guest

Seaoat, the Tuchman books are excellent.

KarlRove

KarlRove

Uh eagle bro, Germany declared war on us days after we declared war on Japan.

Guest


Guest

KarlRove wrote:Uh eagle bro, Germany declared war on us days after we declared war on Japan.

New book exposes how FDR goaded Japan into war Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSA6gFvXFLc2qJipt6wPTNv9hnT4pvwJyxknASljRYrueOjAsftOA

That's not my point.

*****SMILE*****

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fNY0JuATpQ

Smile

ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

KarlRove wrote:Uh eagle bro, Germany declared war on us days after we declared war on Japan.

Okay, Karl. Put this one on your reading list:

Nomonhan, 1939: The Red Army's Victory That Shaped World War II

New book exposes how FDR goaded Japan into war Untitl12

Some call this undeclared but hot war between the USSR and Japan in eastern Mongolia from April-August 1939 as the Battle of Khalkhin Gol. This is where Zhukov learned his trade as a major leader of troops and got his baptism of fire. The troops he lead in Mongolia also gained crucial combat experience, which he would use to turn the Germans away from Moscow in the winter of 1941.

I also recommend the books written by Antony Beevor on Stalingrqad and the fall of Berlin. Read 'em all this past summer.

http://www.best-electric-barbecue-grills.com

KarlRove

KarlRove

Ok

KarlRove

KarlRove

I have debated with my prof the idea that Roosevelt was intimidated by Stalin, but he seems to think Roosevelt didnt understand how Stalin operated and Churchill did and that caused a riff between FDR and Churchill from Tehran Comference onward.

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