Pensacola Discussion Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

This is a forum based out of Pensacola Florida.


You are not connected. Please login or register

Obama's Green Unicorn

5 posters

Go down  Message [Page 1 of 1]

1Obama's Green Unicorn Empty Obama's Green Unicorn 8/26/2014, 9:52 am

gatorfan



By Peter Roff
"The true cost of renewable energy is being masked by government subsidies and bailouts."

"America is about as likely to become reliant on green energy to meet its baseload power requirements as a unicorn is to stroll down the middle of Washington’s Pennsylvania Avenue during rush hour followed by a pink elephant.

It’s just not happening – but that’s hasn’t deterred the modern day snake oil salesmen and their allies inside the Obama administration from continuing to make a push for wind and solar power as an eventual replacement for energy generated from traditional sources like coal, oil and natural gas. Renewable technology has improved, no doubt, but it’s a long way away from being ready to make a substantial contribution to the heating of our homes and the powering of our businesses unless the generous tax subsidies that create the illusion of cost competitiveness continue.

There’s nothing wrong per se with the pursuit of renewable energy; it’s just that what it actually costs is being masked by taxpayer subsidies, federal loan guarantees and renewable fuels mandates at the state level that force power companies to put wind and solar into the energy mix, sometimes at two to three times what traditional power costs. Ultimately, one way or another, the taxpayers and energy consumers are footing the bill even if they don’t know it.

Congress has taken a few positive steps in the right direction. The federal Wind Production Tax Credit was allowed to expire at the end of the year, meaning new wind projects are going to have to be competitive at market rates to attract funding. Remember it was none other than billionaire Warren Buffett, the “Oracle of Omaha,” who explained recently to a group of investors that the tax credit was the only reason that any sensible person invested in wind projects in the first place.

Unfortunately, some federal agencies are trying to keep the program alive through the backdoor.

The worst offender in this regard may be the IRS, which recently issued new “guidelines” that make it even easier for wind projects currently in development to qualify for the tax credit on the basis of work already contemplated or completed. According to Politico, “The IRS says completed or in-progress facilities can be sold and the costs incurred by the seller will still count toward qualifying for the [credit], except in cases where tangible property (think equipment like wind turbines) bought for one project is sold and used at another site.”

To translate this into English, it's a move to help keep the whole shell game alive until such time as wind power supporters can get the tax credit reauthorized. “There is a large pipeline of projects that were under development at some stage that by virtue of this guidance will be able to go forward. In that regard it is going to permit a lot of projects to be developed,” said one wind energy expert cited by Politico.

Outside groups are also weighing in, including the Sierra Club, which has targeted nine members of Congress in a pressure campaign over the August recess to push for reauthorization of the Wind Production Tax Credit. That is in addition to the online ad buys in 16 other districts that started in June.

The Democrats who run the Senate want to keep the now-expired credit alive and have, in the Senate Finance Committee, already approved a package of so-called “extenders” that would breathe new life into it. The House has thus far refused to go along – and kudos to Texas Republican Rep. Randy Weber, who deserves credit for successfully introducing an amendment to shut the whole business down permanently. But he’s not just fighting the lobbyists and green groups in favor of the credit, but the entire federal bureaucracy which, once a program has been established, is loath to let it die.

Major government investment in speculative green projects may have at one time made sense. But even if that were once the case, it is so no longer.

The Obama green energy push has enriched more than a few politically well-connected liberals who used tax credits and government bailouts to enlarge their portfolios, but it has done little to make energy more abundant or lower costs to consumers, which is the justification in the first place to get the taxpayers involved. If people want to build wind farms – on land or offshore – and they want to reap the benefits of their investments, then they should be willing to take the same risks as everyone else.

The way the bureaucrats have it structured now, the taxpayers are making payments on both ends through subsidies for construction and higher rates on consumption. It’s a system only a bureaucrat could love."

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/peter-roff/2014/08/25/obamas-green-energy-push-and-subsidies-make-no-economic-sense?int=a3fa09

2Obama's Green Unicorn Empty Re: Obama's Green Unicorn 8/26/2014, 10:33 am

Floridatexan

Floridatexan


http://www.dblinvestors.com/documents/What-Would-Jefferson-Do-Final-Version.pdf

What Would Jefferson Do?
The Historical Role of Federal Subsidies in Shaping America's Energy Future

3Obama's Green Unicorn Empty Re: Obama's Green Unicorn 8/26/2014, 10:46 am

Guest


Guest

I'm for common sense regulations and laws... but it makes no sense to use govt to steer the market positively or negatively.

It's no won't corps want out from under our auspices.

4Obama's Green Unicorn Empty Re: Obama's Green Unicorn 8/26/2014, 10:49 am

boards of FL

boards of FL

While the rest of the world is eating our lunch with respect to the development of renewable energy sources, here in the US we are held back by a particular neanderthal demographic who can't seem to wrap its head around fairly straightforward scientific concepts.

Education is the key.


_________________
I approve this message.

5Obama's Green Unicorn Empty Re: Obama's Green Unicorn 8/26/2014, 11:01 am

Guest


Guest

You are free to invest as you please. See how that works? We used to call it "risk/reward"... crazy talk I know.

6Obama's Green Unicorn Empty Re: Obama's Green Unicorn 8/26/2014, 11:14 am

gatorfan



[quote=

Education is the key. [/quote]

Doesn't hurt.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-06-27/german-lawmakers-back-new-clean-energy-law-to-reduce-subsidies.html

7Obama's Green Unicorn Empty Re: Obama's Green Unicorn 8/26/2014, 11:22 am

boards of FL

boards of FL

Da Dude wrote:You are free to invest as you please. See how that works? We used to call it "risk/reward"... crazy talk I know.


Yea, bra! Like, totally! Energy policy just sort of, like, sorts itself out, or something! It just does! It's no different than, like, infrastructure investment in interstate systems or public water utilities, or something. It just, like, springs forth from, like, the invisible hand, or something. But this only works if government, like, gets out of the way! I can't really explain it more than to tell you that it just works itself out on its own, or something. More stuff about the invisible hand and stuff.


_________________
I approve this message.

8Obama's Green Unicorn Empty Re: Obama's Green Unicorn 8/26/2014, 11:27 am

Floridatexan

Floridatexan

If you will review the study I posted, you'll see that there have always been federal energy subsidies and tax incentives...often disproportionately favoring fossil fuels over renewables.

9Obama's Green Unicorn Empty Re: Obama's Green Unicorn 8/26/2014, 11:31 am

Floridatexan

Floridatexan

Obama's Green Unicorn Wall-street-hand1

10Obama's Green Unicorn Empty Re: Obama's Green Unicorn 8/26/2014, 11:36 am

Guest


Guest

boards of FL wrote:
Da Dude wrote:You are free to invest as you please. See how that works? We used to call it "risk/reward"... crazy talk I know.


Yea, bra! Like, totally! Energy policy just sort of, like, sorts itself out, or something! It just does! It's no different than, like, infrastructure investment in interstate systems or public water utilities, or something. It just, like, springs forth from, like, the invisible hand, or something. But this only works if government, like, gets out of the way! I can't really explain it more than to tell you that it just works itself out on its own, or something. More stuff about the invisible hand and stuff.

If they really wanted to spend our money wisely it would go to the grid... and there's some room for govt interest in batteries. I can't imagine why you would want something that does such a poor job of running shit to be steering innovation.

It's like you've disconnected yourself from how we got from cavemen to modern societies.

I'll take human nature over social engineering any day. Given the latitude and freedom one man can change the world.

11Obama's Green Unicorn Empty Re: Obama's Green Unicorn 8/26/2014, 11:46 am

Floridatexan

Floridatexan


I don't think we need to go quite that far back:

12Obama's Green Unicorn Empty Re: Obama's Green Unicorn 8/26/2014, 11:51 am

Floridatexan

Floridatexan



This is Greenspan before his admission in 2008.

13Obama's Green Unicorn Empty Re: Obama's Green Unicorn 8/26/2014, 12:51 pm

2seaoat



In the midwest wind power has exploded, and like oil and gas incentives, the societal prioritization of wind and solar through the tax code has been a huge success. The farmers get a lease payment from the tower, the local school district gets taxes, the local utility does not need the dirty coal scrubbers as wind and NG peaker plants are cleaning up our environment. Wind has been a huge success and for all those who thought it was unicorn land........HA HA.....it is now big business and it is working.

14Obama's Green Unicorn Empty Re: Obama's Green Unicorn 8/26/2014, 1:06 pm

2seaoat



http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=15851

Note which states are not producing wind power.

http://www.electricchoice.com/electricity-prices-by-state.php

Note the low consumer prices for electricity in those states who produce wind power.

http://www.catf.us/fossil/problems/power_plants/

death and disease caused by power plant particulates.


Stupid will finally lose the day.

15Obama's Green Unicorn Empty Re: Obama's Green Unicorn 8/26/2014, 1:15 pm

boards of FL

boards of FL

2seaoat wrote:http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=15851

Note which states are not producing wind power.


Yee-haw! It's GOP-supporter-dixie-land! Bringing up the rear in just about every objective measure of society!


_________________
I approve this message.

16Obama's Green Unicorn Empty Re: Obama's Green Unicorn 8/26/2014, 2:14 pm

gatorfan



boards of FL wrote:
2seaoat wrote:http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=15851

Note which states are not producing wind power.


Yee-haw!   It's GOP-supporter-dixie-land!  Bringing up the rear in just about every objective measure of society!

Sure, it's all political. Right. Uh Huh.

Just ignore the realities behind the curtain like

Geographic considerations: a large wind farm requires a steady source of WIND. Not to mention a large footprint and suitable infrastructure. Cheap, open areas are logical places to plant a wind farm.

Noise: higher population density areas aren't the best places for large wind farms

Wildlife: certain restrictions due to turbine impact on endangered species, etc.


Last but not least - it's all BUSH's fault. I think you forgot to toss that in there.

Geez. I'm just surprised 2SO didn't figure out a way to throw his trusty race card too.

17Obama's Green Unicorn Empty Re: Obama's Green Unicorn 8/26/2014, 2:45 pm

2seaoat



a large wind farm requires a steady source of WIND. Not to mention a large footprint and suitable infrastructure. Cheap, open areas are logical places to plant a wind farm.

Wrong......steady....no.....mean wind days high....yes......wrong to the large footprint. I know farmers who have two or three turbines on their farms and are pulling in 6k a year lease payment per turbine. Once the power lines are buried a small access road from the township road allows service of the tower. Usually in the Midwest these are in corn and soybean crops which are planted right up to the towers. Very little loss of tillable soil, and a great mixed use. They are putting these near existing transmission lines....and they are popping up everywhere......win/win

The wind subsidy is helping local schools and improving air quality. The old notion of wildlife kills is outdated as the gearing on the new large turbines are slower and much bigger as birds can easily avoid the slow turning blades.

18Obama's Green Unicorn Empty Re: Obama's Green Unicorn 8/26/2014, 3:02 pm

gatorfan



2seaoat wrote:a large wind farm requires a steady source of WIND. Not to mention a large footprint and suitable infrastructure. Cheap, open areas are logical places to plant a wind farm.

Wrong......steady....no.....mean wind days high....yes......wrong to the large footprint.   I know farmers who have two or three turbines on their farms and are pulling in 6k a year lease payment per turbine.  Once the power lines are buried a small access road from the township road allows service of the tower.  Usually in the Midwest these are in corn and soybean crops which are planted right up to the towers.   Very little loss of tillable soil, and a great mixed use.  They are putting these near existing transmission lines....and they are popping up everywhere......win/win

The wind subsidy is helping local schools and improving air quality.  The old notion of wildlife kills is outdated as the gearing on the new large turbines are slower and much bigger as birds can easily avoid the slow turning blades.

You are wrong. Apparently you don't get the footprint thingy.

A wind farm that can generate a significant amount of energy - enough to replace a fossil fuel generation plant for example, ain't going to hack in some farmers corn field.

Steady source of wind = mean average.

The entirety of "footprint":

" new roads have to be built, or existing ones need to be extensively "upgraded." It requires more than an old dirt logging track to get a 150-ft blade, a 70-ton nacelle, or the huge crane needed to put it all together up a mountain. The road needs to be wide, straight, and very strong.

Several acres around each turbine have to be cleared as well. For best performance, the GE 1.5-megawatt turbine needs 82 unobstructed acres around it and the Vestas V90 needs 111. On a ridgeline, the sloping away of the land and the hope that the wind is always perpendicular to the line of the ridge mean that about 5 acres are actually cleared around each turbine.

Access to the area around the turbines must be strictly limited because of physical danger.

A facility may also require a new substation or two, as well as new transmission lines.

The combination of all this -- road building, extensive clearing, and the installed facility itself -- not only significantly degrades and fragments wildlife habitat but also has a serious effect on erosion and water flow, not to mention the aesthetics of a mountainside or open land.

And of course the visual intrusion affects the landscape for miles around."

Geez.

19Obama's Green Unicorn Empty Re: Obama's Green Unicorn 8/26/2014, 3:32 pm

ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

I am not a climate change enthusiast. I am pro-oil and gas (family connections). This being said, the future of energy is a renewable one.

A couple of years ago I was all over the Peak Oil bandwagon on this and the former PNJ forums. The booming shale industry has tamped that down in me--for now. The premise of Peak Oil is still valid. We are just lucky that technology has enabled the unlocking of the hydrocarbons found in source rocks. We are also lucky that Americans invented and perfected the technology--and made it work in North American geology. Other countries look at us and are envious.

The shale bounty gives us about another 50 years to get our energy act together. Without this bounty, we would be experiencing global petroleum production declines right now, at about 3% per year, permanently.

The future of energy is in electricity from solar. I am so bullish on solar that I want to invest in some solar stocks, while they are still cheap.

OPEC is experiencing production declines across the board. The Saudis are quaking in their boots, as they KNOW their petroleum reserves are going to be gone in just a few years.

The move to renewable energy has always been a green initiative--only it is not the green you are thinking of. Money will be "green" driver for all of this. When petroleum is no longer cheap--it is expensive now--but it is still cheaper than it will be when Saudi Arabia's wells run dry (say around 2030)--solar energy will be cost competitive with fossil fuels. As the price of oil advances to double or triple the price it is per barrel now, Americans will adapt by drastically lowering their energy footprints and embracing the cheaper sources, which will be renewables, largely.

This isn't going to be driven by leftist-conspiracies and such--it will be driven by reality. Luckily, smart people are embracing the changes that will be coming--you see it subtly everywhere.

http://www.best-electric-barbecue-grills.com

20Obama's Green Unicorn Empty Re: Obama's Green Unicorn 8/26/2014, 3:43 pm

gatorfan



ZVUGKTUBM wrote:[color=#333366]

The future of energy is in electricity from solar. I am so bullish on solar that I want to invest in some solar stocks, while they are still cheap.

I agree solar is more likely to be embraced (and be more affordable) than large scale wind generation.

A likely mix of efficient solar, natural gas, and hydro generation is in the cards.

I recently read about a new clear glass solar fixture with a PVC strip running around the edges of the panel leaving the glass pane clear. If the inventors can improve the efficiency of the strip I can see enormous potential. Entire skyscrapers could generate clean electricity.

Membrane based technology could alleviate electrical generation issues for coastal areas. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v488/n7411/full/nature11477.html

These are areas that need more funding.

21Obama's Green Unicorn Empty Re: Obama's Green Unicorn 8/26/2014, 6:30 pm

ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

gatorfan wrote:
ZVUGKTUBM wrote:

The future of energy is in electricity from solar. I am so bullish on solar that I want to invest in some solar stocks, while they are still cheap.


I agree solar is more likely to be embraced (and be more affordable) than large scale wind generation.

A likely mix of efficient solar, natural gas, and hydro generation is in the cards.

I recently read about a new clear glass solar fixture with a PVC strip running around the edges of the panel leaving the glass pane clear. If the inventors can improve the efficiency of the strip I can see enormous potential. Entire skyscrapers could generate clean electricity.

Membrane based technology could alleviate electrical generation issues for coastal areas. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v488/n7411/full/nature11477.html

These are areas that need more funding.


What about spray-on solar, which also is applied to windows:

http://www.newenergytechnologiesinc.com/technology/solarwindow

And, Absolute Black Solar:
http://www.natcoresolar.com/

I bought a few shares of New Energy Technologies a few weeks ago, and am going to buy some Natcore Solar, soon.

http://www.best-electric-barbecue-grills.com

Sponsored content



Back to top  Message [Page 1 of 1]

Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum