“Don’t let them steal our beach.”

RealLindaL wrote:Where IS everybody?   Enjoying the holiday weekend, I hope.

Let's do keep the conversation going, tho.  Wondering what y'all thought of Grover's Viewpoint today....

P.S.  Storm, glad to know your accountant is a straight-up guy. So hard to find these days.  If I ever need an accountant, may I borrow yours?

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I had a wonderful weekend Linda . . . . . our kids were here from TN so they are having fun doing the stand up boarding and going to the beach. Me? I walked 5 miles early this morning and have stayed in the AC watching TV and doing some work on the computer. Grover's comments mimic largely the views he has shared with me on more than one occasion so there was no revelation there . . . . politically, he is pacifying his constituents after Brother Earl's "Don't Let Them Steal Our Beach" editorial followed by your excellent "Viewpoint" piece.

Going out to eat tonight with the tribe so you enjoy the remainder of the weekend . . .

Thanks for checking in, Knot, and it sounds as if you had a wonderful weekend with family indeed.  So glad for you!  And walking five miles is fantastic.  I exercise daily but that's way more than I do.

You certainly hit the nail on the head with respect to Grover's "pacifying" his constituents in his Viewpoint.  Twice he said, in so many words, "Don't  blame me."  He told me a couple of years ago that he was getting threatening calls about beach taxes,  but I guess that goes with the job. This Viewpoint sounded unecessarily defensive to me.

You'll also note he basically sided with the courts as to why we 'continue to lose' our lawsuits, saying a 99 year lease is the same as ownership.  B.S.!!!  This from someone who supposedly has a leasehold condo on the beach himself.  I like Grover personally, but shame on him.

Tried to find the Viewpoint on pnj.com to link it for Seaoat but, although my piece is still showing as of tonight on the Opinion page (prolly about to fall off), I didn't find Grover's later one.

Looks like Storm has left the room, never responding to my last posts to her.   Ah well.  Maybe I irritated her.

Really should start a new thread about the current "Beautification" project, planting all the useless, overkill palms on Via de Luna for the sole benefit of Robert Rinke and crowd who don't like looking at the little ticky-tacky, low end houses on the road to Portofino, and thus wish to obscure them from view.  Found we have no right to refuse the palms here on the south side of the road (even though both Buck Lee and Grover Robinson IV thought we'd be able to say yea or nay, before this project was taken over by the county).  

And believe me, we tried to say nay -- we did not want or need this clutter in front of our lot!  But the trees are being planted in the right-of way, not actually under our control, even though they're right smack adjacent to (and often within) our lawns/landscaping, which have been allowed to exist for years even though encroaching.  

Certain properties on the north side of VDKL will have to sign off in agreement to take the trees,  since the palms will be planted on their actual leasehold lots, behind the power lines so they can be nice and tall - which we also do not need.

Anyway, I keep saying I should start a new thread, but truth be told I have no idea whether or not there are any actual beach residents left on this forum....

Only three or four left, but I suspect some folks read the threads, and some people are renters who like to keep up with issues on PB. Knock on wood, one more season without a hurricane is a good thing.

2seaoat wrote:Knock on wood, one more season without a hurricane is a good thing.

Knock on wood, but let's not get too complacent.  We're about to start downslope from the climatological height of the season, but not for two more days...and even then it's just a slope, not a drastic drop-off.  

October can be nasty -- those who were here for Hurricane Opal in 1995 - the last major storm prior to Ivan -- will surely attest to that.

Still, I'm naturally feeling hopeful and will keep fingers and toes crossed.

RealLindaL wrote:Looks like Storm has left the room, never responding to my last posts to her.   Ah well.  Maybe I irritated her.

Really should start a new thread about the current "Beautification" project, planting all the useless, overkill palms on Via de Luna for the sole benefit of Robert Rinke and crowd who don't like looking at the little ticky-tacky, low end houses on the road to Portofino, and thus wish to obscure them from view.  Found we have no right to refuse the palms here on the south side of the road (even though both Buck Lee and Grover Robinson IV thought we'd be able to say yea or nay, before this project was taken over by the county).  

And believe me, we tried to say nay -- we did not want or need this clutter in front of our lot!  But the trees are being planted in the right-of way, not actually under our control, even though they're right smack adjacent to (and often within) our lawns/landscaping, which have been allowed to exist for years even though encroaching.  

Certain properties on the north side of VDKL will have to sign off in agreement to take the trees,  since the palms will be planted on their actual leasehold lots, behind the power lines so they can be nice and tall - which we also do not need.

Anyway, I keep saying I should start a new thread, but truth be told I have no idea whether or not there are any actual beach residents left on this forum....

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Linda, this may be info you already know but the palms on Via de Luna have an interesting history. The funds that pay for this do come from lease fees paid solely by Portofino Condo owners and strict limits were imposed on the improvements that money could be spent on. In order to access that fund, Robert does have to sign off on that expenditure per the agreement and you were spot on that it was intended to beautify Portofino Pkywy. Palms planted on private property can only be done with permission and a sign off before installation. I don't know but I hope they are providing grey water for the irrigation or they will be dead within two years.

knothead wrote:Linda, this may be info you already know but the palms on Via de Luna have an interesting history.  The funds that pay for this do come from lease fees paid solely by Portofino Condo owners and strict limits were imposed on the improvements that money could be spent on.  In order to access that fund, Robert does have to sign off on that expenditure per the agreement and you were spot on that it was intended to beautify Portofino Pkywy.  Palms planted on private property can only be done with permission and a sign off before installation.  I don't know but I hope they are providing grey water for the irrigation or they will be dead within two years.

Knot, you were correct in supposing I might be aware of all this.  I am.  These monies are termed "excess lease fees" from Portofino, whose lease rates are admittedly higher than the average around here. I'm also aware that there were several other uses Rinke had stipulated the money could be used for -- beach restoration, for one, and a couple more he mentioned years  back that I've forgotten.  But this beautification (NOT) of "Portofino Pkwy" (LOVE it) has been his A#1 obsession and everyone knew it would be the first thing to happen.  

Personally I think it's just plain ugly -- and I usually love greenery, but hasn't anyone ever heard that "Less is more"??  This is overcrowding at its worst, and I keep thinking that Wallace must be just a little embarrassed, even though they're just following the architect's plan.

The most laughable thing is how Rinke has tried to say it's being done for the benefit of beach residents, because we hated the 4-lane road so much (not I!) and to provide VDL residents a buffer -- which we didn't ask for, and which clutters up our landscaping.  We can do our own "buffers" if we need to.  What an unmitigated CROCK.  This is about PORTOFINO'S  best interests, not ours.  And at least one SRIA employee has commented that you and I are far from the only ones to see right through the B.S.

Linda, you haven't irritated me, girl! I just ran out of comments.

The only one I have left is to ask who will remove the palms when they die?

I had planted 6 years ago and only 1 remains despite all the watering, etc. It was no problem getting them planted, but removal proved to be a different issue.

Am I incorrect in remembering "the good ole days" when permits were required for palm planting as they became projectiles during storms? Seem to recall that is the cobwebs left of my brain.

Anyway, we've got lots of projectiles now!!! 

Portofino Parkway is what it is . . . . . . a vast expenditure that was not required under DCA rules and beach residents opposed it in an overwhelming way. We asked, "Are there not other places in this County that need upgrades to their clay roads, or drainage", all of it fell on deaf ears except Tommy Campanella who vocally opposed it but to no avail.

Knot, I think you're right that the vast majority opposed the road, though I sense that most now like it.  I loudly favored it over the two lane option as the latter was just plain unsafe.  You may remember my "Island Insights" essays on that subject on the old pbrla.com -- or not.   

Storm, good to see you back.  Hope maybe you've had a chance to catch up on posts here.

I've only been on PBeach since 2000 and haven't tried to plant any new palms myself so don't know about the permitting requirements, if any. Makes sense to me -- even though the powers that be on this current project say they selected palms for their hardiness.  Hmm...  

My computer keyboard has  been running hot for several days with emails to Grover, Matt Mooneyham, Buck Lee, and others, plus discussions with Wallace Sprinkler.  The bottom line is that Buck and Grover were absolutely certain that no one would have to take palms adjacent to their leaseholds if they didn't want them.  But Mooneyham is in charge of the implementation and  he says they are mistaken -- that only those north siders taking palms within their lot lines will be able to refuse.  I've asked how such highly placed officials could've had it so wrong, but of course no one is answering.  They've moved on.

I'm about done myself, but could I please just share with y'all one short paragraph from my email today to Mooneyham?  I know that absolutely nothing I say will change anything, but at least I got to vent, not only about the mixup on such an important aspect of the project as who gets to say yea or nay to plantings, but also as to the fact that the tightly grouped tall palms, especially those being planted on either side of the public access walkways to Gulf and Sound, will likely block what little views some of us had, and thus impact our quality of life and potentially our property values :

"When we can no longer enjoy our 'postage stamp views' (as  Rinke dismissively termed them to me), we lose the feeling of being on an island at all.  We lose (in our case, and doubtless in others') the small views of the Sound that tell us what the wind is doing to whip up the waters in the morning, or whether or not a fog bank is rolling south, or a rainstorm's wall of water is heading across the Sound from Gulf Breeze, or whether or not folks are out sailing in the sun...so many cues to our hearts and minds that we are here, close to the sea, close to water, on a beautiful island, and not in some palm-clotted enclave that could be anywhere."

Oh Linda, I'm sorry. They have impacted you heavily, but I'm afraid deaf ears is correct.

You came later, but I remember after Opal they hired a firm to make recommendations for restoring the beach to the tune of $40g. I attended those hearings and many, many good suggestions were made. None were accepted, not even those recommended by the consulting firm.

It always bewildered me why they would spend 40g and not take a single recommendation, but that is Escambia County.

Years later they planted the pine trees. Were you here for that? Another FAIL.

I hope it's helpful to you to vent as so many of us have given up. Carry on!

One of the things that's so special about Pensacola Beach is the ABSENCE of palm trees. I know what these idiots are thinking (agree they're trying to make PF the centerpiece of the beach). There was MASS OPPOSITION to the development of PF on the beach, but that didn't stop anyone.

Right after I moved here (late 79), I lived on the beach, but moved to town when our winter lease was up. Shortly thereafter, I started working at the beach one day out of the week...mainly rentals. I once had numerous friends there...many are gone now. I attended a meeting of the Island Authority back then (1980) and was told that "nothing gets done on the beach without payola" (paraphrasing).

Ok, I will just drop in and say that anything new that's being planted on the beach should be native to that beach area. That would save a lot of money and grief in removing dead palms that should have never been put there in the first place.

Is there any way possible to make the PEOPLE approving the planting of the trees responsible for paying for the damage they do when one of them falls and damages a car, house, or anything else?? Hold the people approving the plantings responsible, NOT the taxpayers that pay enough already..

[quote="Jake92"]Is there any way possible to make the PEOPLE approving the planting of the trees responsible for paying for the damage they do when one of them falls and damages a car, house, or anything else??  Hold the people approving the plantings responsible, NOT the taxpayers that pay enough already..[/quote

Jake, I've lived on the island a very long time and I have never heard of a palm tree falling over and causing damage with possibly the exception of newly planted mature palms and not properly supported for a sufficient length of time to allow them to root; however once rooted for 2-3 years they can take a Cat 4 storm.  The taxpayers would not be responsible for any of it anyway . . . . . that would come from the Portofino Special lease funds so I get your point but the people approving are the responsible party.

I agree with the posts complaining about too many palm trees as they are not  indigenous and require a lot of maintenance if they are going to flourish.

knothead wrote:

Jake92 wrote:Is there any way possible to make the PEOPLE approving the planting of the trees responsible for paying for the damage they do when one of them falls and damages a car, house, or anything else??  Hold the people approving the plantings responsible, NOT the taxpayers that pay enough already..[/quote

Jake, I've lived on the island a very long time and I have never heard of a palm tree falling over and causing damage with possibly the exception of newly planted mature palms and not properly supported for a sufficient length of time to allow them to root; however once rooted for 2-3 years they can take a Cat 4 storm.  The taxpayers would not be responsible for any of it anyway . . . . . that would come from the Portofino Special lease funds so I get your point but the people approving are the responsible party.

I agree with the posts complaining about too many palm trees as they are not  indigenous and require a lot of maintenance if they are going to flourish.

Knot are you saying Portofino funds would pay for tree damage? Are you sure??? HO3's cover tree damage which is why many policies now ask how close the trees are to your home. Residents might have a serious complaint if the plantings are affecting their policies.

I did encounter many palms resting on what was left of my home on the sound in GB after Ivan and am pretty sure they came from the beach.

I saw some palm trees that fell during Erin and Opal also..

I'm not saying that it's not possible, it is, probable? No (in my opinion) and I'll qualify my statement to palms that have been in the ground for a minimum of 2-3 years would be very very very difficult to blow over in a storm because of their expansive and wide ranging root system and the limberness of the fronds that yield to resistance during a storm. If the tree is old and healthy it ain't going nowhere. I've watched my own trees (during Erin-too stupid to leave) standing straight out without blowing over.

As to the agreement regarding the fund from the Portofino leases I think there is language that includes maintenance and that would include removal if dead, etc.

Regarding damage to a dwelling I'm not certain but if the resident who owns that parcel signed the required agreement to have the palms placed on their property then again, I think, the same clauses in homeowners policies would be applicable. We have some insurance gurus on this forum that could probably address this better than I.

Finally, the agreement is available if anyone is that tore up about it and would be released under our Florida Sunshine law upon request. I haven't even seen the project myself yet but I am going to make a point of checking it out when I have the time.

stormwatch89 wrote:Oh Linda, I'm sorry.  They have impacted you heavily, but I'm afraid deaf ears is correct.

You came later, but I remember after Opal they hired a firm to make recommendations for restoring the beach to the tune of $40g.  I attended those hearings and many, many good suggestions were made.  None were accepted, not even those recommended by the consulting firm.

It always bewildered me why they would spend 40g and not take a single recommendation, but that is Escambia County.

Years later they planted the pine trees.  Were you here for that?  Another FAIL.

I hope it's helpful to you to vent as so many of us have given up.  Carry on!

Sorry for this delayed response, Storm.  You are a very empathetic person and I thank you for your listening ear and kind words of understanding.   Yes, of course it helps to vent (as I've done not only here but to the public officials involved, several times).  Still, as indicated, I don't expect anything much will change.  The only small hope I have is that they might think a little more about unforeseen impacts next time.  Not likely, I realize.

As far as spending a lot of money for consulting studies that end up gathering dust on a shelf, I don't think Escambia County is alone by any means.  Seems to be a strange characteristic of government.  And sometimes it's a darned good thing the suggestions aren't implemented.  Remember the proposed overpass on the beach??

I wasn't here for the pine trees, I don't believe.  Where were they located?

knothead wrote:I haven't even seen the project myself yet but I am going to make a point of checking it out when I have the time.

Knot, be sure and let us know what your impressions are.  The contractors are working up and down the south side of the road in no discernible order, and presumably will start on the north side thereafter, presuming they've obtained (or will obtain) the necessary acceptances/releases from leaseholders where trees will be within lot lines.

Back to the original subject of this thread, another lovely person, someone supposedly named Eleanor Johnson, supposedly of PBeach, has written another inflammatory, ignorance-packed Letter to the Editor in this morning's PNJ, which letter the PNJ has kindly headlined, "Get informed on beach leases," even though the writer most definitely isn't informed.  

Another Letter to the Editor from another Johnson, Thomas, also ostensibly of PBeach, was published on 8/21 with the headline, "Don't give beach to the rich."

These 'Johnson' people, whoever they really are, may live on PBeach, but they are not leaseholders, at least not under those names.  And their similarly factless letters have appeared in the past when the title issue has come up.  They have no idea how just plain ill-informed they are, and thus how dangerous.  

I've written to Grover this afternoon with an idea on how to reach out to these folks.  We'll see what he says.  We can't possibly respond to every letter from every person, but these Johnson characters are prolific and poisonous, not to mention insulting.  Seems to me that to sit by and let their kind of crapola sink into other uninformed minds is foolish at best.

RealLindaL wrote:

knothead wrote:I haven't even seen the project myself yet but I am going to make a point of checking it out when I have the time.

Knot, be sure and let us know what your impressions are.  The contractors are working up and down the south side of the road in no discernible order, and presumably will start on the north side thereafter, presuming they've obtained (or will obtain) the necessary acceptances/releases from leaseholders where trees will be within lot lines.

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Today, I made it a mission to drive Via de Luna to see the tree planting project. What I see are clusters of palms sporadically positioned and I hope you could answer a couple questions I have. Are the clusters being planted on the utility public easement (15') or do they extend physically on the private parcels? Also, I saw no evidence of irrigation but that does not mean it's not included, if so, will they be irrigating these clusters with the grey water from our water treatment plant? Also, the medians look horrendous to have spent so much public funds installing them . . . . . . they appear to me to all be dying from a lack of irrigation and just a lack of proper maintenance . . . . I did notice that the medians appear to have been recently cleaned up a bit . . . . I guess all the weeds from neglect.
I can understand how these trees could and probably will interfere with the view corridors on some properties and if it were me I'm not sure I would be happy if true.

Floridatexan wrote:
I once had numerous friends there...many are gone now.  I attended a meeting of the Island Authority back then (1980) and was told that "nothing gets done on the beach without payola" (paraphrasing).  

Florida, it's sad to think of your many friends' being gone, scattered to the winds or whatever.  Hope you have some fond memories of the beach....

As for payola or similar, we've been told the same thing ever since we moved here.  I think we have to take it with a grain of salt, tho.  If you think about it, how many municipal politicians have there ever been who've not been accused of such skulduggery? They can't all be crooks, can they?  I mean seriously.   Still, I do hope the truly bad guys get theirs in the end -- so to speak.   Ha.   The Sunshine Laws have, I believe, helped a lot, though they're certainly not a cure-all.  

One thing I know for sure is that if we teach our children to lie and cheat (whether by poor example or by lack of positive reinforcement for good behavior), we can't expect them to turn around and become politicians of high integrity.  Not addressing anyone here -- just saying.  It all starts at home, and that's where this society is woefully lacking these days.  OK, off my podium, way off topic.  Sorry.

Not really off-topic at all, Linda. I was thinking the same thing earlier today...so many people think nothing at all of "getting theirs" and pay no heed whatever to the damage they're doing to other people. That's really what we're fighting here...people who have to have more, even when it costs everyone else for them to have it. No, they're not all crooked...just the majority.

knothead wrote:Today, I made it a mission to drive Via de Luna to see the tree planting project.  What I see are clusters of palms sporadically positioned and I hope you could answer a couple questions I have.  Are the clusters being planted on the utility public easement (15') or do they extend physically on the private parcels? Also, I saw no evidence of irrigation but that does not mean it's not included, if so, will they be irrigating these clusters with the grey water from our water treatment plant? Also, the medians look horrendous to have spent so much public funds installing them . . . . . . they appear to me to all be dying from a lack of irrigation and just a lack of proper maintenance . . . . I did notice that the medians appear to have been recently cleaned up a bit . . . . I guess all the weeds from neglect.
I can understand how these trees could and probably will interfere with the view corridors on some properties and if it were me I'm not sure I would be happy if true.

Knot, I'll answer to the best of my ability.  As far as I've been told, ALL the trees on the south side of Via de Luna are being planted outside of leasehold lot lines,  either within the public easements adjacent to the public accessways -- where most of the tall palm "clusters" are being planted, ostensibly to "highlight" the accesses -- or within the county right-of-way that extends about three feet south of the sidewalks on our side of the road.  (Different situation on the north side, as I think I've explained elsewhere, but ask if I haven't.)

Believe it or not, though hubby and I have asked ourselves the same question about irrigation a number of times, we keep forgetting to ask anyone in charge when we're talking to them.  There is existing irrigation in the vicinity but I don't know whether or how it's going to be specifically directed to these plants.  So far, in front of our parcel where three shorter palms have been planted, all we've seen is a water tank truck come by maybe once in the week since they've been planted.  There's no evidence of their being sprinklered.  We really should ask this question.  Certainly we're not being asked to maintain either these short palms or the tall ones that will soon appear adjacent to us on the public access easement.  

As for the treated water, again, to the best of my knowledge it's being used in the medians -- as brown as they for some reason appear even in this wet summer -- but I don't know if that water or other is being used along the sides of the road to irrigate the grassy areas between road and sidewalk.    I'm wondering now if there's going to be some sprinkler system extension going on after the new palms are all in place.  

Sorry I'm not more help on a lot of this, Knot.   Been concentrating too much on protesting the whole concept, I guess.  It's a comfort to know you, too, would likely be unhappy with views being blocked.  

And so many of these leaseholders won't even know until it's all said and done.   For example, there's a long term rental house across VDL from me, and the leaseholder landlords, who lived here until Ivan scared them away and now reside in Gulf Breeze, have until now had a fine view all the way to the Gulf down the public access sidewalk easement.  Somehow I think they're going to be very suprised, once all the palms are in, to find, when next they visit, that they can no longer see bupkus other than Rinke's screening palms.  This was going to be their late life beach house, so it does matter to them, I'm sure.  Too bad.  No one cared.

Gotta quit for now.  Thanks so much for your observations and comments, Knot.