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Study: Electric cars no greener than gasoline vehicles...a study from BERKELEY no less. How far to the left can we go?

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2seaoat
ZVUGKTUBM
Hospital Bob
Markle
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Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

Right now our country is sending billions of dollars in "foreign aid" to Egypt and other middle eastern countries.  We've been doing it for decades under both republican and democrat "deciders".
We send that money over there in attempt to buy allies,  buy dictators,  buy muslims,  buy whatever.  
Why?  Because that region supplies us with oil.  We need to buy the allies and dictators and muslims and whatever because that's the policy we've always had to keep the whole region from melting down which will interfere with the oil supply.     Because our economy lives or dies on the availability of that oil.
And if that situation hasn't been bad enough,  now it's getting worse.  Because now we're having to compete with the "emerging" countries who also want the oil.  Many of them which if not our outright enemies,  are surely not what we can call "allies".  The same countries whose military capabilities are growing.

And of course that's just the price when we aren't invading and occupying the middle east.  For the last ten years that price we're paying has been exponentially higher.  

And oh but it gets far far worse.  Because all that money is buying us is the privelege of being able to spend hundreds  of billions of dollars more on oil from that same region putting all of that American wealth into their pockets.

Why anyone (liberal,  conservative,  tea party,  libertarian, black,  white,  young,  old,  californian,  alabamian, man,  woman,  straight,  queer, tall, short,  ugly,  pretty,  fat,  skinny or anything else)  would not think it's wise to do what we can to start replacing that imported middle east oil with American made electricity (or natural gas or whatever),  is just a complete mystery to me. Not to steve doocy maybe. But it is to me.

Guest


Guest

Study: Electric cars no greener than gasoline vehicles...a study from BERKELEY no less.  How far to the left can we go? - Page 2 Th?id=H.4905051230702080&pid=1

Considering the coal that would have to be burned to make the electricity to charge that large of battery after every use and the hazmat disposal of such a large battery after it has reached the end of it's usefulness (It no longer charges adequately)... I think the pollution created by simply burning gasoline in the engine in the first place might be a lot less in the long run.

*****SMILE*****

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQzUCO7rG0M

Smile 

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

Damaged Eagle wrote:

Considering the coal that would have to be burned to make the electricity to charge that large of battery after every use and the hazmat disposal of such a large battery after it has reached the end of it's usefulness (It no longer charges adequately)... I think the pollution created by simply burning gasoline in the engine in the first place might be a lot less in the long run.




Firstly, the lithium ion batteries used in electric cars are fully recyclable and are already being recycled. No different than the lead acid battery you have in your car now (unless of course your car is started with a rope starter but that would mean you're driving a riding lawn mower with a dead battery and driving a riding mower on the street has it's own set of hazards).

And now here's something which addresses the second part of your post.


NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Ever since electric cars began commanding headlines a few years back, some have questioned whether the vehicles are really better for the environment.

Typical arguments look more or less like this one posted by a Facebook user in response to a CNNMoney.com story:

"What is the point of the plug-in when electricity has a carbon footprint since it's generated mostly by coal?"

Close to half of the country's electricity does come from coal, so it's a reasonable question.

It's true that running cars on electricity doesn't completely offset the environmental impact. A look at the numbers, however, shows that electric cars, taken as a whole, are cleaner than conventional gasoline or diesel powered vehicles. And the gap should widen.

Two separate air problems: When it comes to cars and electricity, there are two types of "air pollution" to think about. One is "pollution" in the traditional sense, dirty stuff in the air from power plants we don't want to breathe in. The other is carbon dioxide, the main gas most scientists say is behind global warming (which of course conservatives and republicans and steve doocy say is a myth anyway).

When it comes to either, it's coal generated electricity that causes the most concern. That's because coal emits a lot of CO2 and other pollutants.

Burning coal produces about three times as much carbon dioxide as gasoline, according to the Department of Energy. But an electric car, having a more efficient motor, can travel about three times as far using the same amount of energy. For instance, the Nissan Leaf gets 99 miles per "gallon equivalent" of electricity. So in the end, if all the electricity came from coal, the environmental impact would be about even.

But not all electricity comes from coal. The other half comes mostly from natural gas and nuclear power, both of which are far cleaner than coal.

The make-up of the nation's electric power infrastructure varies from region to region, however.

Northwestern states, with their abundance of hydroelectric dams, have particularly clean power. States in the Midwest rely more heavily on coal.

In the near term, people in heavily coal-dependent states would probably reduce emissions the most by buying conventional hybrid cars that don't draw power from the electric grid but instead generate electricity from their own engine and braking power, said Deron Lovaas, vehicles campaign director at the Natural Resources Defense Council.

In the longer term, shifting to all-electric cars will almost certainly result in lower CO2 emissions, he said, because most new power plants coming on-line nationally are not coal-fired. That point was echoed by Mark Duvall of the Electric Power Research Institute.

"New capacity is either natural gas or renewable," Duvall said.

Dirty air: Another problem with air pollution from cars is that it goes where the cars go and concentrates where the cars concentrate. Wouldn't it be better if tailpipe emissions from cars could be released far away instead of in cities and down near the ground where we are?

Well, that's one clear advantage of the electric car's "long tailpipe" -- the pollution from power plants is released where the plant is located, usually miles away from town.


http://money.cnn.com/2010/12/13/autos/electric_car_myths/index.htm







ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

Bob, your arguments are really, really observant on this thread. What these wingnuts refuse to consider is the fact that electricity can be generated by multiple sources other than coal. Coal's share of power generation is, in fact, falling in the U.S. because of the availability of plentiful and cheaper shale gas.

The next game-changer in power generation is going to be renewable energy from solar. Forget about Solyndra, as disruptive solar technologies are in the works that are going to change the way we generate power.


Spray on solar windows inch closer to market
http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/bulletin/spray-on-solar-windows-inch-closer-to-market/19517

‘Absolute Black’ Solar Panels Absorb Almost All Sunlight
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/technology/2012/03/absolute-black-solar-panels-absorb-almost-all-sunlight/

So, as these technologies go mainstream in the next few years, there is good reason to believe that those PEHVs are going to be recharged with sunlight and have little connection to coal or other fossil-fuels.

In the meantime, Walmart, Costco, IKEA, the Timberlands, etc., continue to put solar-roofs on their big-box stores, realizing the cost savings of generating up to 35% of their own power requirements from the sun...... And this is using the current, less-effficient solar technologies.

Study: Electric cars no greener than gasoline vehicles...a study from BERKELEY no less.  How far to the left can we go? - Page 2 Walmar10

I am absolutely determined to one day have Dow PowerHouse solar shingles on the roof of my house.

http://www.best-electric-barbecue-grills.com

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

Some day in the far off future, "energy" will no longer be an issue. It will all come from the Sun.
I used to quote Thomas Edison on that until I found out how he screwed over Nikola Tesla.

TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

There are lots of sources we have yet to discover. Oil is just so concentrated and easy to store and transport. There is a huge potential difference in the electrical charge at the top of your head to the bottom of your feet. Solar would be great if it weren't for shysters like solyndra wasting venture capital.

othershoe1030

othershoe1030

Bob wrote:Some day in the far off future,   "energy" will no longer be an issue.  It will all come from the Sun.
I used to quote Thomas Edison on that until I found out how he screwed over Nikola Tesla.

Bob, I really enjoyed reading this thread, tip of the hat to you, keep up the great work. It's fun to see the reactionary fossil fuel supporters run away under the clear statement of real information! cheers cheers cheers 

I never could figure out what ever happened to the old notion of Yankee ingenuity that used to be a cornerstone of American thinking. Where did that go with these people? Seems downright un-American to be so turned off to innovation and improvements in technology.

Guest


Guest


I never could figure out what ever happened to the old notion of Yankee ingenuity that used to be a cornerstone of American thinking.

We are a nation of pussys that allowed the government and lawyers to drive anything not borne of corporate greed out of business. Not to mention our R&D was sent over seas to China wholesale. If someone in the US even learned the necessary skills from their Great Grandfather he doesn't have the capital or facilities to invent test and produce workable systems. Computers can do a lot but nothing beats rolling up your sleeves and going into Edison mode.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

TEOTWAWKI wrote:There are lots of sources we have yet to discover.

That is always so true. And it's been proven to happen time and time again.
It's always hard to envision something we can't conceive of now. Because to do so would be a contradiction in terms.

There was a time when no one had any concept of electricity powering cities.
Or gasoline fueled cars to replace horses. Or jet airliners. Or a thousand other things which at the time were not even science fiction yet because no one could even imagine it.
And all that didn't somehow stop because Steve Doocy or anyone else believes it has.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

I am really developing a visceral almost obsessive dislike of Steve Doocy.

But I know it doesn't matter.  Because he's now put that punk child of his on the tube and that kid will outlive me.  And after the worms are eating my melanomas that kid will still be telling the same thing to millions.

othershoe1030

othershoe1030

ForgetHell wrote:
I never could figure out what ever happened to the old notion of Yankee ingenuity that used to be a cornerstone of American thinking.

We are a nation of pussys that allowed the government and lawyers to drive anything not borne of corporate greed out of business. Not to mention our R&D was sent over seas to China wholesale. If someone in the US even learned the necessary skills from their Great Grandfather he doesn't have the capital or facilities to invent test and produce workable systems. Computers can do a lot but nothing beats rolling up your sleeves and going into Edison mode.

Meet just ONE of the new Edisons:
http://www.usatoday.com/videos/news/2013/06/03/2384223/

We have a lot going for us partly because there are so many new needs. The buggy whip crowd will just have to get out of the way!

Guest


Guest

othershoe1030 wrote:
ForgetHell wrote:
I never could figure out what ever happened to the old notion of Yankee ingenuity that used to be a cornerstone of American thinking.

We are a nation of pussys that allowed the government and lawyers to drive anything not borne of corporate greed out of business. Not to mention our R&D was sent over seas to China wholesale. If someone in the US even learned the necessary skills from their Great Grandfather he doesn't have the capital or facilities to invent test and produce workable systems. Computers can do a lot but nothing beats rolling up your sleeves and going into Edison mode.

Meet just ONE of the new Edisons:
http://www.usatoday.com/videos/news/2013/06/03/2384223/

We have a lot going for us partly because there are so many new needs. The buggy whip crowd will just have to get out of the way!

Ingenuity is usually the product of necessity. Americans have had such success in that regard because we have had opportunity and freedom. Those liberties are the victim of the leftist nanny state. There aren't tens of thousands of laws and regulations to foster self-reliance and entrepreneurs.

Markle

Markle

Yella wrote:
Markle wrote:
2seaoat wrote:Plus, I don't care what you believe or don't believe.


A fifty percent increase in horsepower in a 1966 GTO is a significant increase.......I just did not see that coming from simple carbs when the stock was a four barrel......if you say you had the engine rebuilt and there are plenty of after market enhancements.....but that still is a huge horsepower increase.......but nice car.....maybe a little jealousy.
Those interiors were pretty spartan, and I was a Chrysler/Dodge guy in 66, but that would still be a great car........My brother has a 67 Chevy Chevelle which he has in perfect condition......I do not know if he has varied from the factory settings.

Entire performance package was added.  The biggest single, least expensive increase in power was the exhaust manifolds.  Getting to be time to sell it though.  I can't work on it like I used to and that was a big part of the fun.

Markle, do you fear going along with anything that is offered  to help preserve our planet for the future because you think Democrats had something to do with it? Could that be it? I think so. I think your hatred leaves you no choice except that of being anti-green.

I have several other cars and a custom Harley.

Stick with your hybrid, I'm certain you couldn't handle my Goat. It really is pretty awesome if I say so myself.

Lighten up, we have PLENTY of oil to last for many decades.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

A battery design has now been discovered which stores four times as much energy in a battery which has the same density as the batteries used in current electric cars.  And the new design will be less expensive to manufacture.
Once this new battery design is in use,  that will mean a plug-in hybrid or a fully electric car will be able to travel four times the distance on a single electric charge than the same cars today.

So,  a plug-in car which can go 20 miles on electric today,  will be able to go 80 miles with the new battery.  

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=breakthrough-energy-dense-battery-uses-lithium-and-sulfur

But of course this means nothing to markel and steve doocy.  They'll still be snickering at the mention of the word "electricity" and will still be driving their "goats" powered by muslim oil.  
I'm now beginning to wonder if instead of it being obama who is the secret muslim,  maybe it's actually markle and doocy.

Guest


Guest

Well the price of electric vehicles are just far too high. They are better gasoline options out there as this article proves.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

supra4 wrote:Well the price of electric vehicles are just far too high. They are better gasoline options out there as this article proves.

I think Steve Doocy has now joined the forum. Hi, Steve. We welcome you.
Here's something especially for you.


I was standing in Hoagy’s Pub yesterday and this little Chinese guy comes in, stands next to me and starts drinking a beer.

I said to him, "Do you know any of those martial arts things, like Kung-Fu, Karate or Ju-Jitsu?"

He says "No, why the fluck you ask me dat, is it coz I Chinee"?

"No", I said, "It's because you're drinking my beer you little motherfucker".

2seaoat



Well the price of electric vehicles are just far too high.

The Prius is the benchmark............that may be changing in the near future, but dollar for dollar.....there is not a better bargain in a personal automobile........nobody is close yet, but Ford and Honda are closer than they were two years ago......the Volt is showing up on the street.....I am seeing them.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

2seaoat wrote:Well the price of electric vehicles are just far too high.

The Prius is the benchmark............that may be changing in the near future, but dollar for dollar.....there is not a better bargain in a personal automobile........nobody is close yet, but Ford and Honda are closer than they were two years ago......the Volt is showing up on the street.....I am seeing them.

I have had a good friend for many years who is a died in the wool motorhead like markle.
When he was a kid growing up in Ocala he was poor and the only way he could have wheels was to get cars out of the junkyard and rebuild them.  Had himself a 57 Chevy by doing that.
He's as conservative as it gets and despises obama and "green" as much as markle does.
He was a helicopter mechanic in the Army and after he left the army he went into business and is a VERY successful local businessman rebuilding helicopter hydraulics for customers the world over.

In 2010 his wife wanted a Prius so he got her one.  
He now drives it more than she does and says flatly "it is the best car I have ever owned".

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

By the way, seaoat, my friend has learned that when it's time to replace the tires the choice of tires makes all the difference in maintaining the fuel economy. So the next time you need tires do the research and get the right ones.

2seaoat



In 2010 his wife wanted a Prius so he got her one.
He now drives it more than she does and says flatly "it is the best car I have ever owned".


I worked for a Chrysler dealer, a dodge dealer, and a toyota dealer from my junior year in high school through my freshman summer in college. I have worked on and driven muscle cars.....I have driven just about every type of car from 1963-1972 and I have never found a car that comes within a mile of the 2010 Prius. It is my understanding that JD Power declared the 2010 Prius the highest rated car in their history. It was remarkable jump in technology and value.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

The design of the Prius powertrain is a marvel of ingenuity and engineering.

At the heart of it is the concept of "synergy".  Synergy is defined as "the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined greater effect".

And since that is exactly what the Prius powertrain accomplishes (by synergizing an electric motor/generator and an internal combustion gas engine) it was given the name "hybrid synergy drive".

It's explained here...

The HSD drive works by shunting electrical power between the two motor generators, running off the battery pack, to even out the load on the internal combustion engine. Since a power boost from the electrical motors is available for periods of rapid acceleration, the ICE can be downsized to match only the average load on the car, rather than sized by peak power demands for rapid acceleration. The smaller internal combustion engine can be designed to run more efficiently. Furthermore, during normal operation the engine can be operated at or near its ideal speed and torque level for power, economy, or emissions, with the battery pack absorbing or supplying power as appropriate to balance the demand placed by the driver. During traffic stops the internal combustion engine can even be turned off for even more economy.

The combination of efficient car design, regenerative braking, turning the engine off for traffic stops, significant electrical energy storage and efficient internal combustion engine design give the HSD powered car significant efficiency advantages—particularly in city driving.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

Since we're discussing hybrid technology,  a good thing to learn about hybrid vehicles is that there are two distinct designs.
The parallel hybrid and the series hybrid.

The Prius is an example of a parallel hybrid.  This means that both the internal combustion engine and the electric motor are used together to  propel the vehicle.  

The Chevy Volt is an example of a series hybrid.  In a series hybrid,  the electric motor is the only thing which is used to propel the car.  The internal combustion engine is used only as a generator to supply electricity to the motor and charge the battery pack.

TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

Wake me up when they make a convertible spyder prius. Till then my Toy MR2 Spyder gets great mileage and is a lot of fun to drive.

othershoe1030

othershoe1030

Bob wrote:Since we're discussing hybrid technology,  a good thing to learn about hybrid vehicles is that there are two distinct designs.
The parallel hybrid and the series hybrid.

The Prius is an example of a parallel hybrid.  This means that both the internal combustion engine and the electric motor are used together to  propel the vehicle.  

The Chevy Volt is an example of a series hybrid.  In a series hybrid,  the electric motor is the only thing which is used to propel the car.  The internal combustion engine is used only as a generator to supply electricity to the motor and charge the battery pack.

So this design does away with a lot of the equipment under the hood of a conventional internal combustion engine? It doesn't need as many filters, gaskets, pumps etc.?

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

othershoe1030 wrote:

So this design does away with a lot of the equipment under the hood of a conventional internal combustion engine? It doesn't need as many filters, gaskets, pumps etc.?

No the internal combustion engine in a hybrid still needs the filters, gaskets and pumps.
The elimination of all that will have to wait for the fully electric vehicle to become practical. And that will eliminate a whole lot more stuff we have to maintain and repair with a car motor. No more valves, fuel injectors, pistons, spark plugs, exhaust systems and all the rest.
An electric motor has only one moving part.

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